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Phily
25th May 2017, 01:30 PM
I've had a few discussions recently on woodturning as both a hobby and a profession. One question that keeps coming up is "how big is it?" that is, how many people participate in this niche?

All I can say is "a lot" but with no idea on what this computes to in terms of numbers. Has anyone ever seen any numbers floating around - maybe guesstimates from tool companies etc?

Cheers
Phil

BobL
25th May 2017, 02:25 PM
I doubt machine suppliers would be of much use because there are lots of folks (like me) that own a lathe and turn occasionally but are not what I would call a wood turners.
I'd call someone a wood turner only if it is their major WW interest and they own their own lathe.

Of the 75+ members of the mens shed I sometimes attend there three members I would call Turners, someone who has their own lathe and spends a lot of time at home and at the shed wood turning in preference to other woody activities. There are around a dozen other members that would use a lathe about once a month or so and some even have their own lathes at home but wood turning is not their major wood interest.

Phily
25th May 2017, 03:10 PM
It is a difficult one to answer for sure. It never ceases to amaze me though how many stats seem to be collected on the strangest subjects - not that it means there is any accuracy to them, but you never know, maybe some uni student somewhere has done some research on the health benefits of woodturning and come up with some numbers!!!?? 😀

tonzeyd
25th May 2017, 04:17 PM
The issue with the "stats" that are available is the data that the Aus Bureau of Statistics (ABS) collects is the data that is inputted when people nominate when they register their business and forces everyone into major "industry groups" the groups are quite vague eg "Furniture manufacturing", wood product manufacturing etc. and wouldn't provide anywhere near the amount of information to drill into sub categories of a particular industry in this case wood turning.

Using Bob's definition of what defines a "wood turner" it would be next to impossible to determine using this data the number of wood turners out there. At best you'll probably be able to determine how many woodworking business are out there and that are based out of a residential location. Similarly using the number of machinery sales is not really going to be accurate either as i'm sure there are many users out there with multiple lathes etc.

In regards to how other stats that are collected, you'll be surprised at how some of the figures are derived and the absurdness of the method eg, if I was tasked to quantify the number of lathe users out there one approach may be to attend the local wood work show survey a bunch of people, work out a percentage based on survey results and multiply out by the number of people in Perth etc to quantify the "potential" number of turners out there. Obviously this is a very simplistic method of working a figure and most likely highly inaccurate, but in the world of stats provided you can justify why you've done what you've done without any other evidence the figure is as good as it gets.

george mavridis
25th May 2017, 04:43 PM
It's 4,178

Phily
25th May 2017, 04:59 PM
Yep I agree Tonzeyd. So I'm going to have a go as I figure I can do as good a job as any statistician! The AAW has over 15,000 members in the US and is affiliated with 350 Clubs/Associations worldwide. So if there are say 500 members on average in each Club that's an additional 175,000 members. Since its unlikely that the AAW is affiliated with all Clubs around the world there has to be another 350 that haven't been accounted for, so that's another 175,000 turners. However, only a percentage (30%) of woodturners are also Club/Forum members so the actual number of turners can be calculated at 175,000 + 175,000 + 15,000 (365,000) / .7 = 521,428.
Then there are the Men's Shed's and their equivalents around the world where as Bob advised, there are on average 12 members in each that are casual woodturners. Extrapolating from the base of 1000 men shed's in Australia there are 10,000 such shed's worldwide which gives us another 120,000 casual turners. So we can determine with a degree of statistical accuracy that there are 641,428 people in the world involved in woodturning.
Anyone out there willing or able to challenge this number?:roll:

Phily
25th May 2017, 05:00 PM
It's 4,178
That's just in on the northern seaboard (-:

BobL
25th May 2017, 05:23 PM
641, 428 turners eh

Well given there are about 600,000 villages in china and about the same number in india and on average each village has one turner (a number I just made up)- some will have none but some will have many more than one, then you'd have to multiply your number by three.

Phily
25th May 2017, 05:33 PM
641, 428 turners eh

Well given there are about 600,000 villages in china and about the same number in india and on average each village has one turner (a number I just made up)- some will have none but some will have many more than one, then you'd have to multiply your number by three.

So we are up to 1,924,284!

Nothing unique about this hobby then !!!!

Sturdee
25th May 2017, 05:53 PM
Then there are the Men's Shed's and their equivalents around the world where as Bob advised, there are on average 12 members in each that are casual woodturners. Extrapolating from the base of 1000 men shed's in Australia there are 10,000 such shed's worldwide which gives us another 120,000 casual turners.
Anyone out there willing or able to challenge this number?:roll:

Consider yourself challenged.:U

Bob's figure of 12 relates only to his shed. The shed that I used to volunteer at only had 2 turners (including myself) so using his figure is to small a sample.

Peter.

Phily
25th May 2017, 06:25 PM
Consider yourself challenged.:U

Bob's figure of 12 relates only to his shed. The shed that I used to volunteer at only had 2 turners (including myself) so using his figure is to small a sample.

Peter.

Yes, but what if there are shed's with more than Bob's??:o
and I did say a "degree" of statistical accuracy. Its quite possibly a very very small degree!!

BobL
25th May 2017, 06:37 PM
Consider yourself challenged.:U
Bob's figure of 12 relates only to his shed. The shed that I used to volunteer at only had 2 turners (including myself) so using his figure is to small a sample.
Peter.

I agree that there are not 12 wood turners at the shed I attend. I wouldn't even call most of them casual wood turners - they are not that interested in turning they just turning when they need to for a specific reason. A serious wood turner will turn just to make shavings.

I don't think of someone that uses a lathe on average once a month as a wood turner any more than I would think of someone that uses a chainsaw 12 times a year as a tree lopper, or cuts up a couple of trailer loads of fire wood as a fire wood provider.

A wood turner is someone for which wood turning is one of their primary hobbies or occupations. I don't think even just owning a lathe classifies you as a turner. I've seem too many lathes covered in dust not having be used for years (even decades) to confirm that.

bryn23
25th May 2017, 07:02 PM
I would imagine, there aren't a lot of professional wood turners, well compared to cabinetmakers, even then, you could debate that as the most of them are just making flat pack boxes for kitchens now.

like Bob pointed out, so many dusty lathes out there. so from machinery sales, you couldn't come to a correct number

A lot of people buy one as a hobby, as it isn't hard to pick up the basic skills to do a basic job, (no disrespect, its the same with hobby woodworkers) and then only really use you when they need to make something, and quality is in the eye of the beholder.

And thats what it about, having a go and improving your skillset.

the serious guys, will make all kinds of stuff and find every reason to be fine tuning their skills, my hats off to you passion:2tsup:.

i don't think you will ever find out a semi correct number as everyone seems to get bundled into a woodworker.

Phily
25th May 2017, 07:25 PM
I agree that it isn't an easy task to define who a woodturner is and the number of them. Just a fun exercise. But I am devistated that by Bob's reckoning I have to remove "Arborist" from my resume 😩😩😩

artme
25th May 2017, 10:00 PM
Not enough!!

hughie
25th May 2017, 10:14 PM
At 521,428.
you may well be very close. A couple of years ago I asked a similar question on a few US forums and the conclusion was then about 500,000.
Symposiums etc seem to be well patronised but the art or craft is not very well known outside of these circles, for alot galleries "if its in wood it aint art" sort of thing. Here in Sydney there are a few collectors and from what I can see most buyers are women.
If you google 'collectors of wood turned art' you will find it's pretty well only North America and apparently, these is around 200 museums that have a section dedicated to wood turned art. This includes the Smithsonian http://renwick.americanart.si.edu/wonder and A Revolution in Wood: The Bresler Collection | Renwick Gallery of the Smithsonian American Art Museum (http://renwick.americanart.si.edu/renwick/videos/revolution-wood-bresler-collection).
I spoke with Richard Raffan briefly at Turnfest about making a living and being a professional wood turner. He mentioned a couple of guys in the EU that were doing well making around $300-500,000 a year.The names escape me, I think it was the four X. This surprised me as the EU didn't strike me as somewhere you could make a decent quid.
The bottom line is that without decent public patronage and or a heightened awareness and appreciation of the craft. It probably wont go much further than it is now, for many its something old men take up in retirement.

Phily
25th May 2017, 11:28 PM
That would be hilarious Hughie if it turned out that my statistical analysis was accurate. Thanks for the references on ergonomics, I came across the Canadian Centre info a few weeks back. The paper references that hard shiny surfaces are problematic for handles!
By coincidence I met up with Richard just yesterday and had a very similar conversation about making money out of turning. Seems that the US has a positive attitude around paying for both tools and turned product. We didn't discuss Eu though he did mention some folk that are massive production turners.

Willy Nelson
25th May 2017, 11:31 PM
641, 428 turners eh

Well given there are about 600,000 villages in china and about the same number in india and on average each village has one turner (a number I just made up)- some will have none but some will have many more than one, then you'd have to multiply your number by three.

Bob,
You disappoint me. I know your background.
Willy

P.W.H.
26th May 2017, 07:51 PM
WE seem to have a lot more than one turner per village over here. You just can't walk into a craft shop without tripping
over all manners of turned wood - most of it very well done indeed. Typically 2-3 turners per craft shop. Although many
supply more than one shop, too. And - craft shops everywhere. Tourism is big in NZ.

I think that's why my wife told me: don't even think about getting into it. (besides, I'm a dilettante when it comes to turning).

chuck1
26th May 2017, 10:40 PM
When I did my apprenticeship in woodturning at lidcombe tafe there was 3 apprentice's including myself the rest of the class was some retired guys and some guys that could turn that wanted there trade certificate.
With the last census I put woodturner as occupation as I was turning at a staircase place. Not sure if the static mob would release statics.
I'm on the lathe 4 to 5 days a week and turned balusters with bruised ribs, mainly to get the job done.
I know one guy I went to tafe with is still running in Sydney.

DaveVman
27th May 2017, 02:45 AM
You can't transpose hobby usage in rich countries to the rest of the world. Most of the world don't have the money or space.

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Paul39
27th May 2017, 07:45 AM
You can't transpose hobby usage in rich countries to the rest of the world. Most of the world don't have the money or space.

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In primitive parts of the world there are people whacking out bowls by the 100s for use as eating and drinking utensils. I have seen photos of I think in Tibet of a lathe made of a four foot or so pole running in wood bearings, probably lubricated with Yak butter, with four blades on one end in a small waterfall, three nails on the other end on to which the blank was positioned and given a couple whacks with a wood club. Tool rest was wood in a fixed position and a hand sharpened hook tool was used. There was a pile of shavings and a pile of bowls.

The turner was sitting on the ground with the lathe practically in his lap.

Edit: I remember where I saw the photos. They were in a National Geographic magazine about Bhutan published in the late 1940s or early 1950s.
They may now have spun Chinese stainless steel bowls in department stores.

BobL
27th May 2017, 09:48 AM
I remember where I saw the photos. They were in a National Geographic magazine about Bhutan published in the late 1940s or early 1950s.
They may now have spun Chinese stainless steel bowls in department stores.

Nope - they're still there but they have upgraded their machinery, slightly
Check out the foot brake and high level PPE use!

https://youtu.be/yri28LbFr5Y

There's dozens or maybe hundreds of these vids on Youtube.

Paul39
27th May 2017, 10:44 AM
Nope - they're still there but they have upgraded their machinery, slightly
Check out the foot brake and high level PPE use!

https://youtu.be/yri28LbFr5Y

There's dozens or maybe hundreds of these vids on Youtube.

I have a lot of respect and admiration for people who turn out nice work with little resources.

A side note, the two pulleys are called fast and loose pulleys. When the belt is on the loose pulley on our right it turns freely. When it is on the left pulley it is held fast to the spindle and runs the lathe.

Phily
14th June 2017, 05:09 PM
Just chatting to a chap that has a bit of a bent for research. I mentioned this topic and he came back advising that there are 275,000 professional woodturners in North America. More than I expected!


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hughie
15th June 2017, 06:01 AM
Just chatting to a chap that has a bit of a bent for research. I mentioned this topic and he came back advising that there are 275,000 professional woodturners in North America. More than I expected!


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That doesnt surprise me North America has a population of around 580 million and according to Google it is or has the worlds greatest number of collectors or 'wood turned art' with over 200 museums that have a section to wood turned art.

Mobyturns
15th June 2017, 06:28 AM
That doesnt surprise me North America has a population of around 580 million and according to Google it is or has the worlds greatest number of collectors or 'wood turned art' with over 200 museums that have a section to wood turned art.

plus a fair demand for architectural turnings for period restoration of houses.

Over breakfast on the Monday after Turnfest, with Mark Baker (Editor of UK Woodturning magazine) we were discussing a similar topic when he mentioned that there are something like one million lathes sold annually. A great majority of those would be low end lathes destined for perhaps one or two uses before they end up on Ebay, Gumtree, or as scrap or landfill. However a fair proportion would remain in use.

Given there are something like 1.6 million Australian males over 65 and a fair take up of wood turning as a hobby in retirement then there could possibly be 50k or so who wood turn at least a few times a year or more often. Only rough speculation of course.

ian
15th June 2017, 08:40 AM
Just chatting to a chap that has a bit of a bent for research. I mentioned this topic and he came back advising that there are 275,000 professional woodturners in North America. More than I expected!roughly

but what definition did he use for "North America" ? and how was "professional wood turner" defined ?
Panama to the Arctic is about 580 million people -- doing the maths implies there are 47 professional turners per 100,000 people
the NAFTA countries (Mexico, US and Canada) is about 495 million -- implies 56 per 100,000
US and Canada is about 357 million -- implies 77 per 100,000.

Picking the NAFTA number for say, the implication is that there should be around 2900 professional turners in Sydney (population 5.24 M) and 14,000 across Australia -- a bit on the high side me thinks.

I'll leave others to adjust these "estimates" to a number which appears more reasonable.

hughie
16th June 2017, 06:00 AM
roughly

but what definition did he use for "North America" ? and how was "professional wood turner" defined ?
Panama to the Arctic is about 580 million people -- doing the maths implies there are 47 professional turners per 100,000 people
the NAFTA countries (Mexico, US and Canada) is about 495 million -- implies 56 per 100,000
US and Canada is about 357 million -- implies 77 per 100,000.

Picking the NAFTA number for say, the implication is that there should be around 2900 professional turners in Sydney (population 5.24 M) and 14,000 across Australia -- a bit on the high side me thinks.

I'll leave others to adjust these "estimates" to a number which appears more reasonable.

OK fair enough, if we look at the US population of 320 million 2015 and it popularity its still not surprising, these are ball park figure as I have never seen any research on 'wood turners' or 'wood turned art' anywhere. There used to be a general area of search within Google stats some time ago, so any info is going to be anecdotal rather than empirical. But if we dont ask the question we will never get an answer and no doubt this question has been asked many times over on many of the forums on the net.
Now I would think that many of the 'professional wood turners in the USA to day' would also include guys that turn art pieces and be contributing members of many of the woody type forums in the USA.Perhaso we need to define 'professional'. I know from personal research that many sell art pieces via galleries and local markets etc to a far greater extent than here in Oz. Which tells me that there is a wide appreciation of wood turning in the USA today.
Now most of these would not necessarily regard themselves as professional, yet they derive much of the cost of thier day to day expenses from the wood turning, we can see this via comments on the many forums.

ian
16th June 2017, 06:47 AM
Yeh, I can accept that the demographics and population distribution in the US and Canada is vastly different compared to Australia. And in particular Australia doesn't have the strong "buy US made" culture seen in the US and Canada. (of course I'm comparing "Made in USA" with "Made in Australia").
Which in turn would allow many more "craftsie" wood turners to be considered "professional" compared to Australia.

So if we take the 77 per 100,000 figure from my earlier post (USA and Canada), the estimated number of "professional" turners in Australia would be about 18,000.
But based on what little turnery I see at markets and in galleries, I would think a more reasonable estimate would be less than 2000 "professional" turners. "Professional" equating to a earning a significant proportion of your total income from turning.

Which is not to say that turning is not a popular hobby -- so I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than 20,000 amateur wood turners across Australia.

Paul39
16th June 2017, 09:19 AM
I find this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Association_of_Woodturners

https://www.woodturningonline.com/community/clubs.php

I joined an AAW chapter for a year, then just turned things, and sold things. Recently I've been occupied with working on my 1910 house and dealing with age related medical stuff.

Not everyone who turns belongs to an organization to be counted. My own perception is that turning is a solitary occupation, other than those who demonstrate or teach.

Luke Maddux
16th June 2017, 11:03 AM
Just for the sake of further complicating a question with no reasonable chance of being answered...

What constitutes a wood turner? For example, I have turned plenty of projects that were JUST turning projects, I have participated in sales of turned objects specifically, I used to belong to a turning-specific club, and I am fully comfortable and capable with a skew chisel (which, let's face it, some turners who are ONLY turners never get there).

And yet, I don't identify as a woodturner unless I'm listing all of my different skills, among which would be "table sawyer" and "drill presser". Nowadays I rarely perform a "just turning" project, and the lathe is merely a tool that is just part of my arsenal of tools. When I need something helical, it's to the lathe, but I don't base my projects around the necessity to maximize lathe time.

If I had to choose one hat to wear that was more specific than "woodworker", it would either be "furniture maker" or "cabinetmaker".

So where do I fall? Do I count as a woodturner?

I know this is kind of semantics, but I haven't seen this touched on in this thread (apologies if I missed it).

Cheers,
Luke

Paul39
17th June 2017, 12:42 AM
Luke,

I think rule of thumb is whatever you do to make 51% of your income defines what is your profession. I would extend this to your hobby.

I had a 40 year run as a commercial, advertising, industrial, photographer. I then did home repair and maintenance for about 15 years. I now call myself a wood turner, almost all bowls. I have a raggedy 107 year old house that takes woodworking, roofing, concrete, block laying, sheet rock, electrical, plumbing, painting, etc. skills.

There are musicians, artists, actors, dancers, etc. who identify such as their profession, but spend 40 - 60 hours a week waiting tables, checking groceries, or doing whatever is necessary to keep body and soul together. I have no problem with that, even though the "gummint" would have them list whatever brings in 51% of the income on their tax return.

I think "furniture maker" or "cabinetmaker" fits, as you would use whatever tools or machines needed to accomplish what you are making.

Allan at Wallan
17th June 2017, 03:03 PM
Pretty simple answer really.
Count the number of legs at the lathes and divide by two.

Phily
18th June 2017, 08:24 AM
I did a bit of chasing on the source of the numbers that I quoted: In 2014 the US Bureau of Labor Statistics highlighted that there was over 237,200 professional woodworkers employed in the US. Compare that with 217,000 in 2010 and the professional market in the US has shown an increase of roughly 2.3% per year.
In context of the other figures quoted, especially the number of lathes sold, this would now seem quite a reasonable number. Being a statistical organisation, I assume that there was a base level of qualification as to what the term "professional" means, but I have no info on that.
One million lathes??? Far out, that's a big number!!!


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