How Accurate???

[Vonrek]

Hello everyone,My first post and I thought i'd get right on into it.
Having been working wood for many years now I've looked at the Triton from time to time but felt it wasn't for me, I'd always seen the thing advertised with some guy building a pergola or decking and thought that it mightbe great for DIY but not for fine woodworking. At the risk of sounding like a prissy twit, (I've been reading through some old posts and was fascinated to read the posts on building a workbench - a sheet of P/Board on a forklift is NOT a workbench) woodworking is more of a passion and obsession for me, not merely knocking up something made of wood, Read James Krenov, David Finck, David Charlesworth or Toshio Odate for an idea of where i'm coming from. Well, the other day i was browsing thru Bunnigs and saw for the first time the new Triton Precision Router. WOW. What a beast 2400W, more features than you can poke a stick at and some great innovative features that would make someone who just bought a $600-$800 Porter-Cable or fancy european job go searching for their receipt and exchange policy. I'd seen the precision saw and other bits like the planer attachment but the Triton Router was built so well that it made me have a rethink about the whole Triton thing.
To cut a long story short, next stop was the Triton webpage, (a great page and a great Aussie story)the archives of this BB (very informative and very interesting. I loved the posts, especially those of one Barry
S(i've forgotten the spelling) on his progressive Triton saga) and now here.
My question is simply how accurate is the Triton 2000, accepting that it must have a good saw (read Triton 235mm Saw) hung from it and the time is taken to set it up correctly. By accuracy i mean what kind of tolerances are we dealing with. Further, would it be capable of cutting really nice fitting, fine slip/scarf/bridle (i've seen what i'm talking about called all of these) joints? Could it resaw/rip 75mm HARDwood into accurate parts to make a wooden plane body. Could it crosscut accurate 45 degree mitres in the said HARDwood, and finally could it crosscut/trim drawer sides and fronts to perfect 90 degrees from sides and face?
Am i asking too much? As posts to this BB have noted in the past, the total cost of the Mk200 plus a really good saw get up to the price of good sized dedicated tablesaws (or a decnt looking bandsaw for that matter) and I've learnt the hard way that it is better to save for a bit longer and buy the right capacity and quality tool once than to buy now and regret (and replace) later.
One final comment, not withstanding my doubts in regards to what is right for me, I think that the Tiron mob are doing a great job in innovation and development, along with other tool makers like Arbotech and HNT Gordon planes, and retailers like Timbecon and MIK international, it makes me proud to be an Australian woodworker. Although i must say that the M and T jig at quicktenon.com looks a real beauty, any Australian users please post.

[ubeaut]

G'day Vonrek - You say you have a passion for woodworking, yet you're shopping at Bunnies. That's very much like using P/board on a fork lift for a bench. http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/rolleyes.gif Strewth.... http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/wink.gif

I have one piece of Triton equipment. Super Jaws. The greatest little invention for years. However when I had Central Victorian School of Woodcrafts we occasionally used to run Triton days, using Tritons best demonstrator. It was always his view that the Triton was only as good as the saw you used in it. Put in a Black and Decker and you get a B&D job. At home he used a top of the line Festo but was told to use another saw for demo's because it made the Triton work better than the average person could afford.

Another thing that came across pretty strong was the need to spend a bit of time fine tuning the whole thing. If this was done accurately then you had a pretty good work centre that was also pretty versatile.

Moral of the story: The better the saw the more accurate the work.

Trouble is that the Triton and the best saw could set you back almost as much as a reasonably good saw bench, which in theory should work and stay more accurate than a Triton. But not nesecerily.

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers - Neil http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gif

[Vonrek]

Thanks Neil, but hey, hands off my Bunnies!!! Nothing like getting into the new guy as soon as he posts.

FYI was only at Bunnies trying to select the right colour boronia for the back garden with my wife. After 30 minutes i discreetly wandered off to drool over Triton, Hitachi and friends (not that i'm being defensive).

Cheers anyway
Looking forward to becoming a regular visitor and contributor.

[ubeaut]

Strewth...... That's my line of defence. The missus made me do it. Geez. http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/biggrin.gif Hehehehehehe

[Johnno]

Vonrek, sorry to be coming into this a bit late, but I thought that my two-pennorth may cast some light in one or another direction.

I have one of the oldest Mk 3 workbenches known to the good people at Triton. I have a 9-1/4" Makita hanging under it, in one of the new model saw chassis and with a height adjuster - fitting the latter was how I found that my table was too early to have been considered in the design criteria, as I had to cut away some of the chassis to allow clearance for the movement of the adjuster. With these considerations I feel that my table does everything that I ask of it.

You need to consider your circumstances - I have no room for a permanent workshop, and have to work under my carport. All of my equipment is stored in a small garden shed at one side of the carport. Everything must therefore be portable - not only that, but be capable of being moved and used by someone not in very good physical condition. The Triton range is to my limited knowledge the only equipment that covers these needs.

Having said this, the workbench (and I include the 2000) is only pressed metal, and subject to a degree of flexing that plays havoc with fine settings. However, if you measure, check, and recheck all of your settings every time you move the gear, (or even before you start cutting your next piece of wood) there is no reason why you can't achieve excellent results. I make picture frames out of both commercial mouldings and mouldings that I make myself from recycled timbers. I use just about the full range of Triton gear - I have a planer attachment and a sliding extension table for the workbench to help in cutting the wood down to size, and I have a new model router table to make the mouldings (I lust after the new Triton Router, but my big Hitachi is still working too well to justify a change).

Provided that I take care with all the settings and work slowly and carefully, I can produce frames that are the equal of any produced by much more expensive equipment. I have an 80 tooth negative rake Koyo blade that I fit to the Makita before cutting mitres, and it cuts as cleanly as a commercial framing guillotine - even better, as I can cut hardwoods than will ruin a guillotine blade.

I don't deny that I may be able to do as well, easier, with dedicated up-market machinery - but until my Lotto numbers come up so that I can move house and build a permanent workshop, my Triton equipment will do the job for me.

[RETIRED]

Ok OK,


Can your work bench do this?


A piece of MDF across the forks allows:

infinite height adjustment from ground level to 6 metres to save back aches.

being able to work outside on fine days.

tilt back 10 degrees to spray undersides of shelves.

a solid surface to clamp things on.

moving finished items without putting paw marks on them.

stores against the wall when not in use occupying 32mm of space.

can be moved where you want it in a sometimes very crowded workshop. http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/biggrin.gif

Now to be serious: I have an excellent bench that was made 30 yrs ago from GENUINE Tas oak fitted with bench hooks and woodworking vises.

------------------
Ian () Robertson
"We do good turns every day"

P.S. The triton is as accurate as YOU make it, however no saw will give you a cut that does not need further finishing procedures that you are asking for i.e.cutting timber for a wooden plane.

[This message has been edited by (edited 06 March 2002).]

[Vonrek]

Did I read it right?? A 6 metre bench height to save back ache??

Wow, you must be one tall woodie!!! Must be hard finding clothes to fit :D.

Reminds of a true story i once heard. While in Australia, Joel Garner (a 7 foot West Indian cricketer) was asked by a young lady whether he was built all in proportion, his face kept dead straight, Mr Garner replied (in your best west indian accent) "no man, if I was built in proportion I would be 8 feet tall"

Thanks for all the great replies though. I really like the sound of a Triton centre and will be working towards buying one as soon as possible (I'll start with the Triton precision saw first). Nothing out there can match it for versatility and as a woodie who loves to build jigs and solve problems the idea of the Triton with its idiosyncracies appeals to me.

One reply which got me thinking mentioned the festo (now festool??) saw being able to make the Triton look better than it actually is. What is it exactly about the saw that can do this? According to my latest update from Timbecon, the bigger festool comes with only a 190mm TCT blade but has all the electronic widgets. What makes the festool better than the Triton?

Thanks agian for the replies and advice

Tim


PS whats happened to Baz aka B Sumpter??

[Iain]

Festool=Precision, simple as that.
Once you have had a little weep after parting with the $$$$, and there will be a few to part with, it's hard to find anyhting to compare. It's even better than Ozito http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/frown.gif

[Vonrek]

But Ozito throw in a torch or a stubby holder when you buy one of their tools.

Can't do much else with one of those fancy festool systainers can you. Although with some ice, a few coldies... an eskie!!

[Vonrek]

8 replies so far (most of them my own)

Only a few more and I'll get a flaming folder.

[barrysumpter]

Just wanted to thank you for the mention and to help support your flamming folder award.

Hope this helps,

Barry G. - S. U. M. P. T. E. R. http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gif
Proud Tritoneer

[This message has been edited by barrysumpter (edited 24 March 2002).]

[soundman]

The big issue with the triton is not how accurate it is or what it will do but how long it will take you to do it and how much trouble it will take to achieve the desired result.
The other issue is cost.
If you want a saw bench by the tome you buy the bench, stsnd, extension bench wheel cits and other accessories, then a a good saw to the package youn could have purchase a real but modest saw bench with rise & fall & tilt, fitted with dust extraction and a proper blade guard system. futher more it will have an induction motor which is much much quieter.
Don't get me wrong a triton make great products and they have real applications but the triton bench is not the correct product for the professional or serious amateur wood worker.
Look at the tools you own if you are a porter cable, festo, metabo sort off guy a triton bench is not for you. If you are an ozito, gmc, consumer poer tool sort of guy a triton is probably a great product for you.

Flaming Folder yett????

[Vonrek]

Thanks for the straight advice Soundman.

I think you've answered my question very nicely.

On the one hand I do not have any time pressures with the woodworking that i do but on the other I've learnt the hard way that fiddling for too long to get an accurate result leads to frustration which can lead to poor work and danger.

What i really want is a tablesaw that is simple, accurate and will allow me to accurately dimension and size work pieces and cut simple joint parts like tenons. I'm not too worried about dimensioning sheet stock or cutting box joints etc.

From the research I've done and answers that i have received it seems that for the approx $780 (based on Wrk Centre 2000, Triton 235mm saw and height winder kit) the Triton will probably fulfill my needs better than a comparable (price) table saw or bandsaw. Plus the ability to upgrade at a later date to include a sliding table extension etc.

Thanks again to all who answered

Cheers

Tim

[salterr]

Very interesting comments about Triton and other products,I am sorry to report that out of 16 Triton products that I purchased 14 of them were faulty. I am on my fourth workcentre second saw and router.I think the design of Triton is fine but the quality control leaves a lot to be desired.I have written to Triton twice and had no responce.The retailers have been very good in exchanging faulty products and the local reps have helped.I have wasted vast amounts of time and as mentioned elsewhere it woud have been wiser to spend more in the first instance and accept it as an investment.

[Vonrek]

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately not the most encouraging experience, hope you're set up now and happily working wood.

In what sense were the products faulty? I think all potentail Triton owners would love to learn from your experience and get an idea of what to look out for when buying Triton gear so as not to have the same traumas as you've gone through.

In the sense of spending more and viewing it as an investment, would you suggest bypassing the orange stuff altogether and going for purpose built (cast iron) gear?

Thanks again for your reply

Cheers Tim

[JackG]

vonrek,
I own pretty much the whole set of Triton eq and it has been very handy for me but I am currently in the process of replacing it.
If I was to go back again where I was 3 years ago with my current knowledge I would buy more solid equipment. I opted for triton because of the price and versatility, when I purchased it I wanted gear with which I could do some furniture and lots of needed renovations on the house. I found out that for furniture Triton is too time consuming in adjustments (If you want acceptable quality) and for construction it does not really replaces a good compound mitre saw.

Dont get me wrong Triton is not useless gear, I did my kitchen, funriture for 2 bathrooms the stand for my 400L fish tank all the framing for an extension a verandah a pergola and many smaler projects but as I said (and may others before me did) when you want precision Triton is very time consuming.

If you plan to spend a day every 3 weeks in your shed Triton is perfect if you are not sure how much you are going to like woodworking or how much time you will be able to spend on it why dont you look in the Trading post ? every week there is a few workcenters for sale a 1/2 of the new price.

Also with what you plan to do you may actually need a band saw as well which is generaly not a combined machine, you may want to to budget for it to...

Hope that helps.

Jack

ps: Dont get fooled by false economies with the Triton saw, it is great for the table (And I can only recomend it) but for hand held use it is damn heavy, you still need 2 circular saws....

[Dennis Hill]

I guess I may as well toss in my 5 cents worth.
I think that the triton gear is well thought out. If you want a GOOD, ACCURATE table saw go and buy an Altendorf. If you want to have a bank balance and are prepared to be a little frustrated by having to check your setup when you change modes on the triton then I guess that there is nothing that will beat the Triton. The Triton is slower than the Altendorf but will also act as a radial arm saw to give accurate "remainder cuts" for working with odd size timber, as in table tops for "bush furniture" which few other saws will do.
As for the weight of the Triton saw, leave it on the Triton bench and buy a 7" saw for hand held work.
I kind of like my old triton.
Dennis Hill.

[soundman]

comparing a triton and an altendorf is not at all a relivant comparison, its like comparing a laundry trolly with a mercedies unimog
a more realistic comparison is a triton and a bottom of the range delta, jet, or other reasonable quality tiwanese saw bench, similar price range, similar foot print.
If you want good chopping performance buy a drop saw too.
try doing a heavy days work with the triton in chopping mode & see how you back likes it.

[This message has been edited by soundman (edited 23 April 2002).]

[Dennis Hill]

Yes Soundman, I tend to agree with you. I have a Rexon saw bench and feel that in some respects that it is inferior to the triton.It is not as accurate and I cannot adjust it so that it is acurate. The blade is not truly parralel to the "mitre guide". It has 2 advantages over the Triton 1, I can lower/raise the blade without fiddling under the saw and2, I can bevel rip the centre of a large sheet. If I want to crosscut I use the Triton.
If I wanted/needed accuracy with a capital A I would need to spend more than I did and not have anything as portable/moveable as the Triton or Rexon. The Altendorf is overkill, but it is bloody accurate, even it it would fall through the floor of my shed.
Dennis.

[Vonrek]

Again, thanks for all of the replies. Ceratinly food for thought. Speaking of which, been thinking a lot about ways to increase the accuracy of the Triton when (if?) i eventually get one. A few thoughts:

1.The previous posts regarding the height winder kit seem to be very positive. Also seems that this bit of add-on is pretty much an essentail item and probably should be considered just as part of the original purchase. Not to go over old ground, but now that they have been out in circulation for some time, has anyone found that they lose their accuracy or generally wear-out. Looking at the Triton set up in a hardware the other day i noticed that the main adjusting screw is plastic??
2.Having read extensively on woodworking and tools, it seems that many of the lower end (ie realistically affordable) table saws dont have such great mitre and rip guides anyway - hence the seeming popularity of the incra, sawtrain and other after market replacement guides (more $$$$$'s). On top of this, many "experts" suggest constructing cross-cut sleds and other jigs to improve the accuracy of even the better tablesaws. My question is (finally!)- how does the triton lend itself to the use of sleds and other home-made jigs etc? It seems that if one made some of these jigs (such as cross-cut sleds and tenon jigs) with micro-screw adjustment (quite easy to do really) or to utilise the positioning ability of the incra gauge, it might be possible to really finely adjust the accuracy of a well tuned triton.

Hope Im not getting to boring with this topic, from the replies though it seems to be generating a bit of interest and discussion.

Cheers Tim

[DPB]

About a year ago I purchased the entire range of Triton products - Workcente/Triton Saw, Router Table/Triton Router,with every conceivable attachment.

I gained a passion for woodworking by using my father's shop when I lived in Canada. He had the best equipment money could buy. But don't kid yourself, we spent many hours adjusting and fine tuning his big heavy General Table Saw, and still found that we weren't always satisfied with the accuracy of finished project. His scrap-bin was as full of "mistakes" as any Triton user.

When speaking to many Triton users I am suprised to discover that portabilty was the reason they opted for a Triton Workcentre, i.e. they don't have space to leave the unit set up.Any tool that is constantly moved around will become inaccurate as the settings will move out of adjustment.

My equipment is set up permanently in my shop, and provided I take care with fine adjustments, the accuracy in my work is no less (or better) than on the professional equipment I've use.

I placing the blame on myself - not the quality of the equipment I use. I suspect that if any of us, professional included, could squeeze the best out of our tools the difference between projects made with Triton and the really expensive stuff would be miniscule.

As for jigs and Incra add-ons, naturally they will help. One minor word of caution. Most store-bought jigs for table saws rely on the standard table-slot which is not a part of the Triton design. Therefore, one would need to devise a way of getting around this.

If anyone has done so, I would appreciate details on how this was done.



------------------

[Johnno]

I also have a height winder hung under my old Mk3 table. It's been there since a week after they came on the market in Canberra and cranks my Makita up and down with no problems whatsoever. Don't knock that big plastic screw - on my unit it's in a very hostile environment, being in the dust bag. It gets a clean whenever I change the sawblade - which isn't often - and hasn't jammed yet.
Regarding the use of sleds etc, I have a couple which slide in the mitre-gauge slot, but I'm just finishing one which spans the full width of the table and uses the sides of the table as a reference. I'll let you know how it works later...

[soundman]

If you must persist with a triton remember a few things
1 getting good accuracy is possible it just takes a little time and effort
2 make sure the saw is firmly fixed in its mounting and is straight.
3 constantly check for warn or damaged parts and replace them
4 forget the measuring scale on the bench and use steel rulers measuring from the edge of a tooth at the front and back of the blade to the fence
5 invest in a length of aluminium extrusion and make an extended fence
6 a good sharp tungsten carbide blade is imperitive
7 choose a saw with as litle arbour float as posible.
8 make sure the unit is assembled sweetly and firmly. level ground helps

I used an early triton for several years and put a lot of work over it until I could afford a real bench

on the subject of sleds. I have boult several and found them to be well worth the effort. I never used the factory mitre guage on my last saw bench. I had two sleds one for square cutting and one giant protractor for angle cuts. they work realy well on any bench wth a full length mitre slot and can produce real good accuracy.
I'v never built one for a triton. but is shouldnt be hard with a bit of thought.
I've found hardiflex sign board a good material for the base. is like high density masonite about 10mm thick good and stable and machines quite well.
best of luck chum.

[Vonrek]

Thanks again for the replies. I'ts great to get good, positive and constructive feedback. Will hopefully be able to add "Tritoneer" to the end of my name very soon. Looking forward to hearing from all who have tried sleds and jigging etc. on the Triton. Perhaps a new thread, if it hasn't been done to death already in the past!!

Cheers, Tim