Sharpening....A Dark Side Voyage for Beginners [Archive]

JDarvall

4th October 2005, 08:49 AM

For sharpening, I look for the quickest way. So I can get back to work before I loose that 'groove'. you know. Probably not the 'best' way. But the method I use still gets a razor edge.

For me to flattern anything I use coarse Thermes belt paper. Bit iffy at $5/m, but, removing large amounts of material while keeping it flat is such a sh*tty job. And it eats metal very quickly. Then just use medium then polish waterstones to finish off

To sharpen any bevel I use a frequently AlO grinding wheel, followed by a well balanced felt buffing wheel loaded with green compound. Very fast.

That pretty much covers all my sharpening needs. Then just have a few kinds of jigs to hold all blade types.... jointer and thicknesser blades, all types of plane blades (rebate, skew, block), chisel, drawknife, straightrazor, all knives......etc. who cares really, its getting a bit old.

For drill bits I can sharpen freehand,,,but not for sizes less than about 4mm,,,and only for use on wood. What I can't do, is resharpen a drill bit well enough to drill metal. Can a dedicated drill bit sharpening jig sharpen a bit that well ?

I sharpen my tenon saws myself. But can't sharpen table saw blades, or dovetail saw blades.

Lou.....theres a book that I found very helpful. Not too complicated, which I appreciated. Called ' The Complete Guide To Sharpening ' by Leonard Lee.
Might help.

Congratulations Rick on your newborn. You got a video camera ? ... I've got 3 girls aged 8, 3, and 9 months. I made the mistake of not getting a video camera when my 8 year old was just a baby.... cause there great arn't they. Pick up so much more than just still pictures. The way they talk, act etc.
Here's a snap of my little 3 year old. Lovely little girl.

echnidna

4th October 2005, 09:28 AM

Gee, this thread makes me really sad.

All those famous old time master craftsmen didn't know how to sharpen their handtools properly.

They did a bodgy job with an oilstone therefore they musta had blunt tools
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

NewLou

4th October 2005, 11:38 AM

Gidday:)

Well after a lot of scouring the internet talking to tradies & looking at a number of worthy options I decided to purchase my first Grinder. I chose an Abbot & Ashby 8 inch grinder............... your typical standard speed run of the mill grinder you'd find in most workshops.

Abbot & Ashby are an Australian company who used to produce here until having to move offshore to remain competitive for production purposes............good enough reason to by one for me. Also theres the added bonus of being able to upgrade to the multitool down the track..............If I end up being that way inclined

(See Pics)

I also got my hands on an EZ Lap combo 600/1200 Diamond whetstone (On special at MIK); some 1000 grit & 6000 grit waterstones from Terry Gordon (HNT Gordon Handplanes) I deliberately got these grits to keep things simple & have decided not to go beyond a 6000 grit waterstone.

After seeing the results Terry gets using his sharpening system I can't justify outlaying for further sharpening gear..............If need be I'll re- assess but I have a suspician that this 'setup' will address all my sharpening needs!!!!!!!

Regards lou:D:D:D

NewLou

4th October 2005, 11:46 AM

Straight out of the box I could tell that I've got my hands on some quality gear. The Abbot & Ashby Grinder is a solid well made piece of machinery...............

However the tool rests are Spartan to say the least (See pics) & are definately inadequate for my need.s Looks like i'm going to have to source an after market tool rest anyone got any ideas on this one??? I'm thinking the Veritas at this stage???

Also the watertones looked like great quality............can't wait to give em a run

REgards lou

NewLou

4th October 2005, 12:10 PM

Gidday:)

Well heres the sum total of all my chisels and a spare plane blade I recently acquired (Thx Terry;)). I'm going to use my cheap supercraft set as my practice chisels & won't touch my good Stanleys (Well good for me at this stage) & my spare plane blade until I get competant at what I'm doing.

The first thing I'm going to be working on is my handsharpening technique. WHat I thought might be a good start is to do a comparison between my old Stanley oilstone and my newly acquired waterstones...............will there be a difference between:

1. Blade presentation
2. How long the edge holds

??????????????????????????????????

........................I'll do a post on what I discover soon

REgards Lou:D:D:D

barnsey

4th October 2005, 03:39 PM

G'day Lou,

1, Couldn't do better than an A&A - good choice :)

2, Don't know what you got with the grinder but a blue wheel is almost a must. You'll be flat out burning anything with it, a white wheel - well okay, grey wheel well? See if you can hit the stray moggie with it :eek: :D :D. I've gone with a blue wheel and a cotton buff with a fairly aggressive paste to buff tools. At least thats my starting point now after talking to mathewA at midge's on sunday.

3, I built a timber tool rest which I think was on the popular mechanics website - worked a treat but then I bought a heli-jig for woodturning detail gouges which is great and has a tool rest that I love. Can set a tool angle in seconds, lock it and then I'm gone so those web sites are worth having a look at. John the inventor of the heli-jig is also a wealth of information if you want to talk to him for an hour or two :rolleyes: :eek: :eek:

NewLou

4th October 2005, 05:38 PM

Yup Barnsey:) could't agree more in regards to the Blue stone...............I've gone with the Norton Blue Max found here...................

http://www.timbecon.com.au/products/sharpening-machine-accessories-499_2.aspx

I'll post a pic on how I went about setting her up once she arrives.

Regards Lou:D:D:D

JDarvall

4th October 2005, 07:29 PM

Lou.....there's another important thing that I'd do for that grinder. That is a jig that gives you the means to frequently retrue that AlO wheel(white one) or whatever wheel you get. The improved wheel will heat up just as badly as those regular ones will if not frequently dressed.

The problem is that redressing is also troublesome. Because its likely if you do it freehand that you will dress it out of square.

Thats why, IMO, you should focus on developing the habit of redressing with a reliable jig. I mean, I will re-dress the stone every couple of minutes....that often. I don't think many people relise just how often it should be done .....because the difference after redressing is immediately obvious..... You'll grind very quickly with the same amount of heat up.

I'll risk resembling a show off by showing my jig. Its speed things up immensely cause it makes re-dressing a cinch. At the very least it may give you an idea.

Position the grinder right on the edge of the table, and fix above it a flat bar above it. One with a rectangular cross-section. You don't want your dressing tool moving about like you'd get with a round bar.
The bars above the wheel, because up there it won't get in the way if you decide to grind freehand.

When its time to redress, you run a jig across that bar. What I use is a carbitec honing guide that grips a metal plate, which in turn holds a piece of wood, which holds a diamond stick.... :D ....Nothing flash, BUT its good because all you need do, when its time to redress, is lightly tap the top of the plate with a hammer causing it to drop slightly. Just enough for it grind away the existing worn out layer of grit, redressing it, so the wheels grit is sharp again.
BUT because the bar is flat and square, the jig will run steadily, making the wheels edge perfectly parallel and straight, such that you will get much improved results when grinding freehand. ie. you can take a worn chisel edge straight in and because the wheels edge is perfectly straight it will in turn transfer that to the chisel. VERY VALUABLE process IMO. Can't stress that enough.

The beauty of this bar is also that you can grind regular blade bevels of it as well. Plane blades, chisels, anything.... using that carpatec jig as well....
Cause the bars high, its out of the way when you want to grind freehand.
So I'd just rip off those side guards with its stupid little tool rests.

And the trick to grinding freehand IMO, is to grind with the blade as low as posible off the wheel such that your looking right down the edge, so that you can watch that glint disappear and burr. (thats why the grinder is right on the edge of the table, ideally with the stone overhanging) . From there you can actually watch that flat edge disappear. The sort of feedback you don't normally get with the blade positioned in the normal way.

Cause you can see what your doing better AND with a perfectly square DRESSED wheel, freehand grinding becomes very accurate. All you have to worry about is burning the blade. And thats easily monitored because your fingers will burn before the blade will. So just have a finger or two up close to the edge while grinding and just pull back and let cool when gets hot.

Did I rave enough for ya. .... :D

NewLou

4th October 2005, 07:51 PM

Excellents Post with some great info on grinding apricotripper:)!!!

You cease to amaze me with your skill and knowledge.................Top stuff dude & thx for contributing.

Actually I spent 2hrs today trying to freehand grind a chisel square...........ish. I realised after about the 10th attempt that this is truely a skill that would take a hell of a lot of practice to master. I've since started considering making or purchasing some good Jigs.

But I did sucessfully fabricate a bolt for one of my sliding Dogs in the Poorman!!:D:D:D

I also found that it is really really difficult to Hone without a guide. I tried a number of techniques with average results at best............Unless I'm going to be sharpening everyday (which I'm not) looks like a hoining guide going to be the go ..... but keeping with my origional intention for the Thread I'll just keep to using my Stanley cheapo!!!!

REgards lou:D:D:D

Cliff Rogers

4th October 2005, 08:45 PM

...I'll risk resembling a show off by showing my jig.....

Nah, ya just give Sturdee a bit of competition. ;)

Mirboo

5th October 2005, 10:39 PM

I agree with apricotripper that the book "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" by Leonard Lee is a good one. It is very comprehensive but easy to follow. I decided on this book over the one by Thomas Lie-Neilsen based on reviews I read on Amazon.com (refer links below).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1561581259/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-9638932-9508012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1561586579/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/002-9638932-9508012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

The book by Leonard Lee scores an average of 5 stars out of 5 from 17 reviews whereas the book by Thomas Lie-Neilsen only averages 2 stars out of 5 from 3 reviews. Follow the links above to read the reviews. Reading what the reviewers say gives you a better idea of the comparative merits of the 2 books than simply relying on the number of stars it scores out of 5.

Regards,
Mirboo.

powderpost

5th October 2005, 11:20 PM

I love reading the posts about tool sharpening, I learn about all these new modern systems. I started my apprenticeship as a carpenter and joiner in 1957 and was taught to grind tools to about 25 degrees and hone them at about 30 degrees for both plane blades and chisels. They only got to be ground when in the workshop and then only with an old emery wheel. On the job we only had standard fine oil stones. Now retired I have compromised and now use a 25 year old "Bergin" Taiwanese grinder with a 60 grit aluminium oxide wheel and a 600 grit water stone. The cutting edge produced will shave the hair off my arm. I have used diamond laps, slate stones, ceramic stones and find them unnecessary. Grinding is only necessary to remove gaps in the cutting edge or to produce a hollow bevel. Then hone to produce a cutting edge. As for the 'scary' system, wet and dry paper on glass, sanding belts etc. what a giggle. I would be surprised if any professional uses any of them.
Jim

NewLou

6th October 2005, 12:05 AM

Thx powderpost:)

Yup thats what its all about......................de-mystifying and simplifying the process!!! I am truely starting to believe that sharpening process can be achieved easily with nothing more than a standard grinder a 600 grit stone & cheap Stanley honing Guide.

Today I Honed most of my chisels to a mirror finish & a 30 degree microbevel working through the grits from 600 1000 1200 6000 after using my stanley honing guide on the grinder to rough out a 25 degree bevel................& it took ages.

Don't get me wrong it was a satisfying process to marvel at how sharp I can get things & how i lapped the flat surface of the chisels to a mirror finish etc etc ...................but it must of took me close to 45 minutes per chisel probably closer to an hour & this is with a Sharpening kit that cost around $200 for the double sided diamond stone & 2 waterstones!

I'm fasinated to find out how long an edge will last............& if in real world conditions if there are any advantages over using a quicker more economical process..............at a quick guess after brief reflection I suspect perhaps an improvement in paring my be obtained or the first few strikes from a from a freshly honed chisel but beyond that......................the juries out.

Is there truely a difference between sharp & silky sharp in real world conditions ................... At this stage I'm yet to be convinced??????

Just to add a quick quote from a David Marks (Host of Woodworks) article that I have just read.........

"David reminds us not to put an excessive amount of effort into sharpening, as the goal is to finish the project, not sharpen all day!"

REgards Lou

derekcohen

6th October 2005, 01:24 AM

Today I Honed most of my chisels to a mirror finish & a 30 degree microbevel working through the grits from 600 1000 1200 6000 after using my stanley honing guide on the grinder to rough out a 25 degree bevel................& it took ages.

Don't get me wrong it was a satisfying process to marvel at how sharp I can get things & how i lapped the flat surface of the chisels to a mirror finish etc etc ...................but it must of took me close to 45 minutes per chisel probably closer to an hour & this is with a Sharpening kit that cost around $200 for the double sided diamond stone & 2 waterstones!

Lou

As anyone who has read sharpening posts will know, there are as many ways to sharpen as there are readers! And everyone will be adament that theirs is the best and only way.

One of my more favourite posts was Powderposts (above), who wrote:
...now use a ... 60 grit aluminium oxide wheel and a 600 grit water stone. The cutting edge produced will shave the hair off my arm. .... As for the 'scary' system, wet and dry paper on glass, sanding belts etc. what a giggle. I would be surprised if any professional uses any of them. Gee wizz PP, I guess Garrett Hack (The Handplane Book), Rob Cosman, David Charlesworth, Frank Klausz (all professional teachers) and Leonard Lee (The Complete Guide to Sharpening) all must be having an identity crisis right about now! :D I really cannot accept (and I do have the experience to know) that a 600 grit waterstone - which only good for grinding and will leave deep scratches on a metal surface - is not good for a plane blade. Also, shaving arm hair is a very macho test of "sharpness" but has little to do with woodwork.

Lou, if you are running through four waterstones to get to your final edge then you are doing it the HARD way.

I can (and do) hone blades freehand. I am quite good at it, but prefer not to do so for the majority of my blades these days. I continue to do so with a minority. The simple rule for sharpening speed is "repeatability is faster". This means that the ability to return to the same spot on a blade avoids unnecessary sharpening or grinding. This is a hugely important factor when you are working with microbevels. Microbevels simply means less metal removal, and less metal removal means faster sharpening.

Take a basic 25 degree bevel. Use the 800 waterstone to achieve this. Chisel blades MUST be absolutely FLAT on the back. Plane blades are not essential. Now hone a 5 degree microbevel with the 1200 (producing a 30 degree cutting angle). This need only be 1mm wide (even less!). And then hone over this with the 6000 waterstone. The whole deal should take about 10 minutes. Much, much less when re-honing.

Remember, the back of the blade must be honed to the same level as the final bevel (i.e. 6000). The whole idea is to remove any serrations at the bevel edge. Another rule of thumb: if it feels sharp, it is not. If it feels smooth, it is sharp!

Is there truely a difference between sharp & silky sharp in real world conditions ................... At this stage I'm yet to be convinced??????

Answer: The quality of wood surface will be a reflection of the degree of serrations in the bevel edge of a smoothing plane.

To return to the plane blade. For smoother blades, you need to hone to the highest level you can, and do not skip grits, since you MUST remove the previous grits' serrations to achieve a smooth edge. The final step in honing should be to use David Charlesworth's "Ruler Trick" to remove the "wire edge" and make sure the back is flat, all in one quick (20 second) method. More of this another time, if you are interested. Do NOT, repeat NOT, try this on chisel blades. These must be flat.

Other observations about sharpening media (not mine - I'm just repeating well-known information). Blades honed on a grinder wheel do not hold an edge for long since the edges are serrated and these break off, leaving the edge dull. A smooth edge will hold sharpness for longer. A higher angle bevel will be stronger (ie resist chipping better) than a lower angle bevel, but the latter will feel sharper in that it has great "penetration" (read Leonard Lee in this regard).

A honing guide, such as the LV Honing Guide Mk II, has a major place to play in sharpening since it makes repeatability a doddle.

Honing bevel down plane blades is a less critical demand than honing blades for a bevel up plane. Bevel down planes get their cutting angle from the angle of the frog (ignore the influence of backbevels for now), while a bevel up plane gets the cutting angle from the combination of the bedding angle PLUS the bevel angle. So the bevel angle in a BU plane is critical. Hence a honing guide is a bigger issue with these planes. I use one religiously on BU blades.

OK, time to stop. There is soooo much more. All I am trying to demonstrate is that there is a lot going on in the world of sharpening blades. Others here will jump on the things I have said - some will agree, others will not. In the end you have to find a system that works for you, works efficiently and economically - since, after all, we just want to get back to working wood. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

ryanarcher

6th October 2005, 06:23 AM

Derek,
thank you for spending the time to bring some sense to this thread. :)
-Ryan

JDarvall

6th October 2005, 08:24 AM

Geeez Derek, you can rave more than me !!!! :D ;)

You mentioned 10 minutes to sharpen a blade . You see, for me , thats way too long. 1-2 minutes is for me. which you can do with grinding/buffing combo. Any longer than that, with my crap memory, when I finally return to my workbench, I'll spend a good 5 minutes scratching my head wondering.... 'what the hell was I doing ? ' :D ..no, not that bad. :D but I agree ,sharpenings is too much of a distraction.

How sharp a blade should be , I spose, is also dependent on what your doing. Like, say, your chopping a mortise, you don't really need something ultra smooth do ya. The mortise will never be seen mostly. Since most tenons have shoulders on all sides. I mean, I'll chop out mortises with quite a dull chisel well enough and still get good results. Results obtained faster, simply because I haven't lost 10 or more minutes at the sharpening station.
And its questionable, if, beyond a certain point how advantageous a yet sharper blade would be, since a lot of it may be lost quite quickly from the forces used in mortise chopping anyway.
which, dare I say it, :D , is what powderpost was getting at. Situations like that. And there are a few situations where a 'smooth' razor edge isn't needed. Just a blade thats sharp enough to shave your arm hairs is good enough.
IMO, you can get too anal with sharpening. Like with scary sharp with a dozern different strips of grit... :D If you got a lot of work to do, you definetly won't get it done worrying about getting that blade so polished that you can see your blackheads in it.

But I agree, for final finishing the sharpest possible is great. But only then.

NewLou

6th October 2005, 09:27 AM

[QUOTE=derekcohen]

One of my more favourite posts was Powderposts (above), who wrote: Gee wizz PP, I guess Garrett Hack (The Handplane Book), Rob Cosman, David Charlesworth, Frank Klausz (all professional teachers) and Leonard Lee (The Complete Guide to Sharpening) all must be having an identity crisis right about now! :D I really cannot accept (and I do have the experience to know) that a 600 grit waterstone - which only good for grinding and will leave deep scratches on a metal surface - is not good for a plane blade. Also, shaving arm hair is a very macho test of "sharpness" but has little to do with woodwork.

Derek,
thank you for spending the time to bring some sense to this thread. :)
-Ryan

[QUOTE=derekcohen]

Heres quote from Bob Smalser

All the grandiose words written in the last couple decades on honing, all the expensive gizmos for sale to help you do it, and all the trouble folks seem to have with it puzzle me some. Grind that blade correctly, and the difference in cutting speeds and technique between oil, water or composite stones is meaningless because there isn�t enough honing to be done to measure a difference. Moreover, why would I want to trade my hundred-dollar Taiwanese large pedestal grinder for a much-slower, several-hundred-dollar Tormek?

.........If I remember correctly Ryan you own a Tormek don't you ???? Ryan I'd be interested if you pointed out which parts of this thread dosen't make sense????...............................I'm very happy to change miss information

Derek...........Perhaps they are not having an identity crisis BUT I know who posts to Forums for free & who out of those you have mentioned are making money out of their championed sharpening system

I think U-Beaut has put it as well as I have heard!!!

You don't need a speed control on a grinder you need sharpener control.

You the sharpener..... Use control when sharpening your tools and you won't burn them. A light touch on the wheel with a slow, steady, purposeful movement of the tool across the face of the wheel will give brilliant results and will keep the blade cool enough to touch without burning your fingers. Most people burn the blade because they are too impatient.

Strangely enough these are often the same people who buy Tormec's and the like that take 3 times longer to do the same job they were too impatient to do correctly on the much cheaper machine.

Slow down and ease off and you will get a perfect edge every time. Oh yeah, you also burn tools because you have a blunt grinding wheel. Dress it regularly with a good wheel dresser, preferably diamond and it will work a hell of a lot better for you.

If you must buy a control device for your grinder buy a good tool rest there are a number available and they will help make a dramatic difference in your grinding.

......................I really cannot accept (and I do have the experience to know) D Cohen

I find such a need to heard quite interesting perhaps this quote from another article sums it up!!

"Note, however, that I have only been doing this for three or four years".............. D Cohen

.........Now for me It would be far more constructive to add observation's relevant to the thread for Beginners (Like Myself & perhaps others who have posted here;)) which has been the purpose of the whole process from the beginning!!!!..........A deep thx to all that have done so..............SO FAR!!!

REgards Lou

NewLou

6th October 2005, 11:43 AM

To summerise:

1. Develop good Machine Grinding Skills - You don't have to be frightened of burning the blade if your technique is correct. If a concern a good after market "Blue Wheel' can help reduce the risk of burning the blade.

2. Good grinding technique reduces the amount of Honing required. Probably the most underated skill to learn!!!..................Get a good tool guide with a Jig to ensure consistant repeatable results!

3. Dress your grinding regularly it will keep your wheel true & dramatically improve its performance.

4. Unless your willing to put a lot of practice into free hand sharpening a honing guide ensures consistant repeatable results - You can easily get buy with a cheap Stanley; Carbatech Honing guide.............Consider more expensive models if 'playing' with various plane/blade configerations to attack cranky/end grain.

5. Develop the art of stroping with an appropriate wheel or leather strop. Just as effective as Charlesworth's 'Ruler trick'...............Ask an old time Barber why they Strop their Razor Blades & how effective it is.

6. Consider having a 'set' of finely honed chisel/Plane blades for final finishing purposes.

7. Try & get into the habbit of giving Chisels/Planes a regular Hone ideally after each time their used.

8. The reality is generally speaking there is no perfect sharpening system. Try a number of different approaches & try to work out what works for you. From time to time you may have to use specialised sharpening practice to address a specific woodworking challenge/purpose eg: Planing crankey grain; planing end grain, finishing work, paring, mortising etc etc

Regards Lou

derekcohen

6th October 2005, 02:08 PM

Lou

I did not respond to this thread at an earlier stage simply because, as I stated before, there are many ways to skin the cat. Everyone is an expert on sharpening. My intention, when I did do so, was not to say “this is the way to do it”, but rather to draw attention to several factors that all need to be more aware of.

Up until about 18 months ago, I had spent 4 solid years doing everything freehand. Prior to that I used guides. But I went back to guides because they now met my needs, as I was working more with bevel up blades. For a flat bevel in a bevel down configuration, or with chisel blades, I generally still just go at it freehand. The point is that there is no perfect way here, merely horses for courses.

On the other hand, there are some definite No-Nos about sharpening, and the reason I am taking the time to respond here is because I do not want someone to read the points here and assume that they are gospel since they have gone unchallenged. I welcome others challenging my challenges!

Here is one

Develop the art of stroping with an appropriate wheel or leather strop. Just as effective as Charlesworth's 'Ruler trick'...............Ask an old time Barber why they Strop their Razor Blades & how effective it is.

My opinion (FWITW):

Stropping on a barbers leather is definitely NOT a good thing. Do not equate a cutthroat razor and a plane/chisel blade. There are big differences, both in bevel angles and in bevel configurations. With this method you will round over the bevel edge. Stropping on a flat piece of leather IS a good thing. But the blade bevel must be held flat. I have leather glued to a piece of hardwood and pull the blade back towards myself (rather than push it edge forward – guaranteed to slice the leather. Another way is to rub Veritas green rouge (crayon) on MDF. This also works well. Another similar No-No is to use a soft cloth wheel. This will also round over the edge. Only use a hard felt wheel, and then make sure you only touch the tip lightly.

Stropping is not the same as the Ruler Trick. The RT is a way of flattening the back of the bladel, in effect a micro backbevel. Stropping is at the front of the blade.

Jake (Apricotripper) and I are more on the same page than off it. He noted – and I totally agree (having written the same here many times) – that you sharpen for a purpose. I do not need my chisel blades to be as “smooth” as my smoothing plane blades, and I do not need my jack blades to be as smooth as these either. I prefer my dovetail paring blades to be at 20 degrees, and sharper is better since I push these, not hit them. But the ones I use to chop are ground at 30 degrees and I do hit them. I have plane blades that are cambered (such as a jack or a scrub) and these are not finishing blades. Still, I like my blades to be as sharp as possible since this makes it cut moire easily, and it does not take much extra time when using a microbevel.

Yes, you can cut arm hair with a chisel honed on a 600 grit waterstone, but do not generalise from this statement that this is also OK for plane blades. It is not.

Incidentally, Bob Smalser – with whom I have shared many a discussion on several woodworking forums over the years – uses oilstones. He does not use his plane blades straight off a grinder. He could with his chisel blades, but I doubt it.

Freehand honing a microbevel on a bevel down blade is quite easy since you do not have to be as precise as a blade that is being used bevel up. It is the BU blades that require a honing guide. But a honing guide does reduce the amount of time you need to spend since it is repeatable. At the same time I do enjoy (if one can say that of sharpening, which I am generally to impatient about) freehand honing, since it can be a quick process.

Jake, the 10 minutes I quoted was to for setting up a blade from scratch. Re-honing a microbevel should take 1-2 minutes tops.

Regards from Perth

Derek

NewLou

6th October 2005, 04:38 PM

Gidday:)

Thx for the continued contrabutions Derek which is appreciated. All about the learning Kerb...................My understanding of stroping is as follows:

The purpose of stropping is not to abrade more metal, but rather to continue bending, flexing, fatiguing, and burnishing off the miniscule metal strands still clinging to the edge of the blade after the burr breaks off.

Surely this leads its self to working towards one of your points:

"The quality of wood surface will be a reflection of the degree of serrations in the bevel edge of a smoothing plane."......D Cohen

For me this suggests that stropping is not confined to either/or side of the blade................& indeed it is suggested on one of the Walk through classes posted on this thread that stopping should occur on both sides of the blade.

the analogy to 'Barbers' was to point out that stropping be not done as per Barber Style................Is simply there to highlight the fact that stropping can be an important part of the sharpening process.

I don't recall ever stating or suggesting that we should be sharpening handtools using the same materials & methods as Barbers............. Or to use a Barbers strop - And cannot see how you can conjure up such assumptions based on my statement................... I'd be looking to:

Strop on clean, undressed leather only...............using a firm strop that is less prone to bend the micro-thin cutting edge at the end of a stroke.

............something like a Horse Butt Strop would suffice & is readily available.

In regards to stropping with an appropriate wheel

I strop using a stitched muslin wheel loaded with Knifemaker�s Green Rouge...there are many stropping mediums, and it doesn�t matter which one you use. What matters is stropping your bevel at the same angles you used in honing. I also use a hard felt wheel, but it removes more steel and gets very hot very quickly, and I use it primarily to quickly touch up my turning tools without any honing............. B Smalser

REgardless I think some good pointers for sharpening have been identified & will continue to ..........share the journey as more is revealed.

REgards Lou:D:D:D

Andy Mac

6th October 2005, 05:05 PM

Hello all,

Thanks for an enlightening thread, as previously pointed out there's more than one way to skin a cat. A lot of us tend to get slack when sharpening, rushing what amounts to an important job because it gets in the way of benchwork.
I tend to progressively ruin a chisel or plane blade bevel with slack handheld technique, then get serious with the honing guide (or wet grinder if its really wayward) to right the bevel, then lapse into handheld again! :o And I haven't yet ventured into the use of a waterstone, the price of these things scares me...maybe one day, if I keep listening to you guys!:D
On the topic of stropping, I once worked with a couple of old gents when I was a teenager, both joiners, one a German and one a Falkland Islander. Both of them stropped their chisels after honing.... on their old leathery palms! Whisha wisha wish back and forwards without a second thought. I don't know if it actually did anything, but they insisted it took any burr off.

Cheers,

ryanarcher

6th October 2005, 06:19 PM

.........If I remember correctly Ryan you own a Tormek don't you ???? Ryan I'd be interested if you pointed out which parts of this thread dosen't make sense????...............................I'm very happy to change miss information

Sorry if my earlier statement sounded pretentious. I just wanted to truly thank Derek for taking the time educate us once again on a subject that he is very, very knowledgeable in. and i disagreed with a lot of what you said, but that's ok :) . if it works for you, then everything is awesome. it's funny, there's nothing like sharpening to get people's dander up.

yes, i do own a Tormek. it's not very popular on this forum, but the truth is that i really like it :o . it should be noted though that i use it for grinding everything and sharpening my knives, scisors, etc. but i sharpen my woodworking tools on h2o stones. the one endearing quality of the tormek though is that it introduces many users (including me) to the joy of very sharp tools.

;)
-ryan

NewLou

6th October 2005, 06:41 PM

No worries Ryan:)

Would be great to hear a few of your ideas on sharpening for beginners too!!!
Please feel free to comment................Newbies to sharpening like myself can only benefit..........from your knowledge!!!!

Regards Lou:D:D:D

outback

6th October 2005, 06:55 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but from 32 posts I've gleaned that I probably shouldn't take my BU plane blade in one hand and the 6" angle grinder in the other and use it to sharpen. :eek:

JDarvall

6th October 2005, 07:26 PM

Geeez Lou, you can rave too..... :D

I'm joking, I'm joooking. ok. :D

Tiger

6th October 2005, 07:37 PM

Let me just say that I'm grateful for the extended discussion on sharpening. It is an extremely worthwhile topic as it will probably make the difference between success and failure in woodworking. In woodturning anything less than sharp is an exercise in frustration. I have never seen any quality work that was done with blunt tools. I have only ever hurt myself when working with dull tools and then it was because I had no idea how to sharpen. I do have 1 question though, is it realistic to expect that you can get a super sharp chisel or plane blade from just a grinder and a Bear oil stone, I mean if you are good at sharpening? Or do you look at other methods such as Scary sharp, waterstones etc. I will be going to the wood show and may purchase some waterstones as I've never used one before.

Skew ChiDAMN!!

6th October 2005, 08:01 PM

Just to throw the cat among the pigeons, I gotta say that the best way to sharpen a tool depends mainly on what the primary function of that tool will be and whether you can afford to waste time!

Doing framing there's the odd bit of mortising to be done. I've a set of good 'ol firmer chisels for this... and 'cos framing is generally done on-site it's a pain in the **** lugging all the sharpening gear around. So I don't. :p Instead, I give 'em a hit with an orbital sander @ 240 grit. Flatten the back, then freehand the bevel. They slice, they dice, they do the needed job well. Especially considering that by the end of the day these chisels will be nocked (low quality rubbish framing timbers. GRRRR!) so it's a waste of time trying for a better edge.

But when cabinetmaking the time spent in putting an edge on my chisels, whether dovetails, firmers or whatever, pays dividends. Different use, different way of sharpening. Even for the same tool...

As a turner I sharpen my lathe chisels on an AlO wheel and that's it. Scrapers need the burr to be left and although gouges, etc. would theoretically be better without the burr, have you actually tried removing it? IMHO any time spent there is literally wasted; any turner will tell you that you need to hone or resharpen several times per session even with the sharpest of tools...

My spokeshaves now, they're a different kettle of fish. The flat's I scary-sharp, while the concaves I freehand but, for the jobs I use them for, it makes a major difference. on the other hand my gramps, a true Master Carpenter, felt the same way about his as I do about my framing chisels. He hit 'em with a light file and a bit of glasspaper! :eek:

I can't speak for planes. [shrug]

So I don't care what anyone says. It's pointless saying that all tools of such'n'such type (eg. chisels) should meet such'n'such criteria. It's the
primary purpose they'll be used for that really determines how & when they should be sharpened...

derekcohen

6th October 2005, 08:10 PM

yes, i do own a Tormek. it's not very popular on this forum, but the truth is that i really like it

Hi Ryan

Don't feel as if you have to apologise about using a Tormek. I nearly bought one once, and only did not do so because of the price. It inspired me to look at alternatives, which led to my belt sander. In any event, the Tormek is a fine machine, and I'd use one too if it was available. The problem is not the Tormek - the problem is those users who insist that all you need is a Tormek and convince others that this is so as well. As you have noted, the next step is to hone the bevel that you have ground, and your preferred medium is waterstone.

I want to say again that there are many ways to skin the cat. I really do not want to give the impression that my road is the only road to travel. My only concern is that opinion is taken as fact. The only way we really progress is by experimentation.

The other point I want to make is that both freehand and guided honing, machine, water- and oilstone, sandpaper, diamond stone and diamond paste - all of these have a place and can work their magic. There is, and should not be, a "status" issue here. The bottom line is that we want sharp tools to work wood. That is what brings us together. I have enjoyed hearing the experiences of others and try and add something new to the reportoire. I hope that others will still offer more insights of their own.

Regards from Perth

Derek

derekcohen

6th October 2005, 08:35 PM

Lou

Sorry, I meant to add this earlier. Re-reading your post, you did not say that you would use a barber's strop. I misread that. The two item were just mentioned in the same paragraph. My apologies.

You did say:

The purpose of stropping is not to abrade more metal, but rather to continue bending, flexing, fatiguing, and burnishing off the miniscule metal strands still clinging to the edge of the blade after the burr breaks off.

Surely this leads its self to working towards one of your points:

"The quality of wood surface will be a reflection of the degree of serrations in the bevel edge of a smoothing plane."......D Cohen

Here is a quote from a post I made on Wood Central about a year ago, my then rave against the Tormek ("I'd love a Tormek, but it is not good enough ..."). This will, hopefully shed light on what I mean by "serrations" and surface quality.

First off let me say that 90% of the time I hate sharpening! Only 10% is the Zen experience for me - I'd rather be woodworking. So I have also looked seriously at alternate methods to my current (several years now) preference for waterstones. I came so close once to buying a Tormek. Perhaps I still will ... Nah, it is not good enough .. Oh I wish it were good enough ...

If you can wait through a couple of short stories, then you may understand why I feel this way.

Situation one. You buy a new plane, a decent one, and it arrives with a factory-sharpened blade. The one that made me aware of the issue was a Mujingfang Smoother. Now the blade is sharp, sharp enough to shave with. So it had got to be sharp - yes? Perhaps. Maybe not. But it feels so sharp! So you set the plane for a fine shaving and plane away. And you marvel at the whispy shavings that you produce. BUT then you look carefully at the surface of the timber you have just planed and you notice that it is really not as smooth as you thought it would be. In fact, it has a grainy, slightly rough texture. Mmmm.

Situation two. I attend a Woodshow where the Tormek is being demonstrated by an enthusiastic salesman (or should that be "salesperson"). I am equally enthusiastic, particularly since I have a memory of seeing The Norm using one and slicing newsprint with his chisels after this. The salesman shows me how it is set up, how you change the grits, and how you hone on the leather wheel after the fine wheel has ground the bevel. He slices and dices as well as Norm. Then he hands me the plane blade and I run a finger tip over it. What's this? It feels rough! The salesman assures me the blade is sharp - well I saw him slice newsprint, didn't I? Well, for me a sharp blade should feel smooth, in fact should not feel sharp at all.

So I know that, if I used this blade, it would leave the same rough surface that I experienced with the factory-sharpened Mujingfang. The Tormek grinds to 1000 grit. This is nearly where the lowest Waterstone I use (800) begins. My next up is a 1200, then a 6000 and finally a natural waterstone. If I then hone (with Veritas green) I end up with a mirror surface that does not have any visible-to-the-eye grind markings. If I look at the Tormek-honed blade, I see plenty of markings.

David Charlesworth's ruler trick (see his video) is aimed at reducing the amount of steel that one has to remove in order to sharpen to 6000 or 8000 grit. I could not imagine him stopping at 1000 grit and saying "that is good enough". Well, for some it may be good enough, but I would then add, "good enough for what?". Certainly not a smoothly planed surface.

So I would not use a Tormek alone for a plane blade. Preparing it for higher grits, certainly, but not beyond this point.

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?noframes;read=53157

Regards from Perth

Derek

NewLou

6th October 2005, 08:50 PM

Yup..............no worries Derek

........................................Clear as crystal

Regards Lou:D:D:D

Gingermick

6th October 2005, 09:41 PM

I circumcised a bee with my freshly sharpened chisel last year.

LineLefty

7th October 2005, 11:54 AM

Derek,

You use a natural waterstone after a 6000 stone? As I've previously said there is problems with supply of 6000's so I got a natrual chinese stoen from carbatec. I'm going from main bevel at 1200 to micro bevel on the natural and green crayon. Is this too big a jump in grits?

derekcohen

7th October 2005, 12:33 PM

Hi Adam

That quote - about the natural stone - was taken from a comment made 12 months ago. Around February this year I bought a 8000 King and this has replaced both my 6000 and natural waterstones. I go directly from the 1200 to the 8000 waterstone. Keep in mind that this is really only possible because I use microbevels - there is very little to hone, and the 8000 is quite capable of removing all the 1200 scratches very quickly. Do not try it if you are honing full beveol faces - then you would need an intermeditory stone, say 4000.

The King 8000 ($125-ish) is a bigger outlay than the King 6000 ($50-ish) but it is at least twice the size of the 6000 (both wider and longer, and twice the thickness).

So, to answer your question, going from a 1200 to the natural stone (probably about 6000-8000) should be fine.

Regards

Derek

Rabbit

7th October 2005, 12:38 PM

Maybe I should just post another picture of my newborn son and have another beer to celebrate .
Congratulations, mate! Looks like a keeper!

Ausworkshop

7th October 2005, 01:05 PM

I just thought I'd check to see what the forum has to say about sharpening before I head in to the wood show to look at various tools and jigs.

I'm lost now http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/smilies/frown.gif Guess i'll just buy another stone of some sort.

I sharpen free hand & my main problem is the stone surface becoming uneven.

I have some various grits of wet & dry paper glued to some glass which is always flat. This seems to work great & the stone sits in the corner now gathering dust. Yet people still say stones are great. I can't understand it - They cost alot more than wet & dry and they go uneaven really fast for me.

I want to look at Diamand thingys with holes in them, they look more like cheese graters. Do they stay flat? Anyone else going in to look at sharpening jigs?

Lignum

7th October 2005, 01:49 PM

Andrew, the Diamond thingys with holes in them, a veritas honing guide and a grinder with an aluminium oxide wheel is all you need. And then with experience discard the honing guide and do it all freehand. Red and Yellow DMT diamond stones are the ones you need and they will out last you, stay flat and produce a very, very sharp edge with a minimun of fuss leaving more time to do whats most important.... And thats making stuff. I still rekon to many woodies are to obsessed with the whole process. Read the words of the great makers ie: Krenov, Maloof, Polaro and Allan Peters etc, they all say to much time in their early years was spent on "over sharpening" now its fast and simple, leaving more time to get on the tools and do what matters most. ;)

silentC

7th October 2005, 02:12 PM

They cost alot more than wet & dry
I doubt that if you add up how much wet and dry you use over the lifetime of a stone - even a waterstone.

Ausworkshop

7th October 2005, 02:13 PM

Thanks for that.

So I go buy:
1 White grinding wheel
Red & Yellow Diamond Thingys
1 Veritas Honing Guide

Sounds like my Shed will be a little more colourful after my trip to Jeffs Shed

What colour honing guide do I get?

Just kidding.
Thanks

derekcohen

7th October 2005, 02:29 PM

Yet people still say stones are great. I can't understand it - They cost alot more than wet & dry and they go uneaven really fast for me.

Hi Andrew

There is a good reason why waterstones wear and go out of flat. They are basically made out of clay, and the clay binds together the grit. As the clay wears, so fresh grit is uncovered, and the waterstone remains sharp. This is the normal way in which waterstones work and their big advantage. Yes, advantage!

The problem with diamond stones is two-fold: firstly, the highest (= smoothest) grit they come in is 1200. This may be OK for a chisel or a jack plane blade but it is not good enough for a smoother. Secondly, the diamond stones are not "forever" - they actually wear quite quickly. There is also a third feature, one that I would lump with sandpaper, this being that the surface does not wear and thus does not release clean, fresh and sharp grit as a waterstone will do. So it is actually much messier than a waterstone in this respect.

The issue of keeping a waterstone flat is really no big deal. It takes seconds to do. You do need to do it frequently with some waterstones (more frequently with Kings, infrequently with Shaptons - which a very expensive).

Do a search for my "waterstone board". This can make the whole job a simple affair.

Diamond stones have a place in the sharpening armoury, but I would not consider them seriously for anything other than as a grinding stone or on blades that do not require a smooth and very sharp edge. It all comes down to what you want from your tools/blades. I might add that I do have a couple, and they work out MUCH more expensively than waterstones. A small bang for a big buck.

Regards from Perth

Derek

JDarvall

7th October 2005, 03:31 PM

I had a 8000 king, once,,,,,Until our cat nocked it off the sharpening station,, chasing something. But it was a very good stone alright. Worth $120 I suppose. Be nice if it was cheaper though. Big improvement on the 4000.

I'm enjoying this thread. A lot can be gained from conversations like this. Dereks input is clearly invaluable (is that the right way to say that ? ....'invaluable' ? .....I always thought just saying 'valuable' makes more sense) .... :confused: :D

I might have something that might help.

How do you fella's square off a plane edge ? ..... you know, when you get an old plane blade, for example, and you want to regrind it, first you really gota straighten out that edge....... Cause I have a technique that might help out, if anybodys interested.

MathewA

7th October 2005, 03:34 PM

This method is not for everyone some may howl at the cost but... The easiest and best way I've found to keep my stones flat is to have two of the same grit. Rub them together for 30 seconds before I start sharpening. Perfectly flat stones all the time. I only use two stone grades 1000 and 6000 so it's not that expensive. If you only sharpen once every six months whether your chisels need it or not then this method is definitly not for you (not that anyone here is like that!). Also, the action of the two stones rubbing against each other builds up a nice layer of slury for when I hone the blade.

Lignum

7th October 2005, 03:37 PM

Diamond stones do last... When you use them for the first few times they appear coarse. Thats from the manufacturing process where some of the diamonds have micro size high spots. When those high spots have been knocked off, and the plate appears to be smooth, is when its most effective (Contact DMT they will tell you the same thing) Ive had my Red DMT for 7 years and my Yellow now for nearly 4, and they are still producing the goods. You say that 1200 cannot produce an edge on a smoother! thats like saying the Dockers will win next years Premiership... Just not so. All my blades are razor sharp, and my 60 year old Stanley smoothers shavings float to the floor, No stuffin round with flattening or heading of to Bunnies for wet`n`dry, and as for the box in the corner that stores cobwebs, dust and my King and Norton water stones, well that hasnt seen the light for over 3 years, and it will stay that way till i get all nostalgic one day and dig em out. But as someone said earlier, everyone has their idea and methods, and no one is right or wrong. Thats the beauty of what we all love to do. But its only my opinion, but starting out with the Veritas and diamonds will give you a quick, sharp fuss free edge to all your blades, and if you want to go get a few water stones to experament with, go for it, because they do produce a superior edge. But that extra edge dosnt help me at all with what i make, so i dont bother.

derekcohen

7th October 2005, 04:42 PM

thats like saying the Dockers will win next years Premiership... Just not so.

Lignum

That's a cruel, low blow! :eek: No, I agree with you. But the Eagles - that's another story!

You are also right about the way that diamond stones wear. My point was simply that they do wear and do not cut as aggressively as all imagine they do. Eventually they also stop cutting. Unfortunately, one cannot get away from the fact that they only go to 1200 (9 microns), while a 6000 waterstone is 2 microns.

that extra edge dosnt help me at all with what i make, so i dont bother.

As you say, however, your needs are perfectly served by the diamond stones. And that is exactly in line with comments above of horses for courses. The question that other users must always ask is what level they want the blade they will sharpen.

I might have something that might help.

Jake, the mind boggles! :D Don't keep us in suspense any longer!! :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

silentC

7th October 2005, 05:01 PM

The easiest and best way I've found to keep my stones flat is to have two of the same grit. Rub them together for 30 seconds before I start sharpening. Perfectly flat stones all the time.
This is an interesting idea. I thought that two stones of the same grit would wear equally and so if one was concave, the other would become slightly convex at the same rate that the first becomes less concave. I suppose it depends on how often you do it. Might have to buy another couple of Kings and give it a go.

Lignum

7th October 2005, 06:42 PM

[QUOTE=derekcohen] Derek
As you say, however, your needs are perfectly served by the diamond stones. And that is exactly in line with comments above of horses for courses. The question that other users must always ask is what level they want the blade they will sharpen.

I went through the sharpening phase some years back (Mid-woodworking-life crisis i think it was) and used to love so much to have these mirror polished ultra sharp blades... Then it dawned on me that they actually didnt do anything different than what a nicley polished very sharp blade dose. And that was also in my reference to what Krenov, Maloof, Polaro and Allan Peters etc have said. They make some of the finest furniture in the world. Krenov uses 3 oil stones and kero. He has had them for 30 years and has in his words has "never trued them up". Check out some of the planes he makes and uses and the feather like shavings they produce. In FWW number 126, he states that ever since the Japanese water stone craze took over, people have become far to fussy, and there should be a ballance where the sharpening is minimal rather than maximal because it becomes self defeating if carried to far, because your fussing more about your tools than your work and at some point fussing takes over... But as you corectly say, its horses for corses, and it is fun to go the whole hog, as long as it dosnt take over... And regarding the Weagles winning... My calender states its the 7/10/05 not 1/4/05

JDarvall

7th October 2005, 07:57 PM

Jake, the mind boggles! :D Don't keep us in suspense any longer!! :D
Derek

All righty then ! ..... I'm kid free for a couple hours tomorrow. I'll take a couple of photos then, to include it in a post to describe the idea,,,,, so I can try and make sense. uno.

(don't get too excited....its not that amazing :D )

rick_rine

7th October 2005, 08:38 PM

Congratulations, mate! Looks like a keeper!

Must admit the minutes after he was born , all purple and that I did think of returning him LOL.

I have been following this thread with interest , not because of my home workshop as I tend to keep an edge for quite some time but because of my duties as a T.A. at the local school .
There I find most of my time trying to get the edge back on a chisel that has been used by a , ummm , student , ( I'm well aware of censorship on this forum :) ) to remove nails from benches or to test on a screw to see how sharp it is .This results weekly in a very deep gouge from the face taking me , on the GREY wheel , a very long time to remove , almost always resulting in burning . thats my main gripe but also there is 30 or so to do and a better way is obviously needed .
I want to either suggest that we get a blue wheel or the GMC wetstone made in china .
Might ask for both .
Rick and Charles

Ausworkshop

8th October 2005, 03:26 PM

First of all thank you to all who have made very helpful comments to the sharpening debate. I'm now alot clearer on the subject now.

I went to the wood show yesterday and purchased the Veritas honing guide and a Torquata Diamond Sharpener, not sure if its 600 or a 1000, would help if it was written on the packet and I didn't bother asking the cute little blond at the checkout because I think it was her first day selling woodowrk tools of any type let alone know anything about Diamond Sharpers.

Anyway I searched the net and it seems to be an ok brand from WA just wish I knew what grade it was.

The one thing I did notice is the wide variation in prices for these Diamond Sharpeners. A flat piece of steel encrusted with diamonds can vary about $50 up or down between brands. Some are double sided. Then I see single sided ones the same size at twice the cost so it was a little confusing, especially when anyone you ask at the show has such a biased opinion.

Anyway i just sharpened up the kitchen knife, shaved my arm hairs off, glided through a very soft tomato, made a grilled Cheese & Tomato Sanga then burnt half my lip off as I sat down to read the Carba Tech Bible.http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/smilies/mad.gif

Ouch!
Shharp......Very SShharp!

Lignum

8th October 2005, 04:56 PM

JDarvall

8th October 2005, 09:08 PM

Geeez lou,,,onto the 5th page. You've started a long one here.

And thanks for those comments earlier.....you said -> " You cease to amaze me with your skill and knowledge .. " ....thanks, but I'm also talented, goodlooking, handsome, loaded...you failed to mention that :mad: ... :p . Still nice of you to say, but mate, I'm already spoken for.....time to face it,,, but hey, if I was available I'd be yours in a flash you sexy darksider you. :D

Anyway, enough crap.....here's some pictures I took today. Its more flogging my idea again. But, hey, I don't have anything else to flog.

One thing I haven't really noticed in any sharpening technique is a means of straightening an edge. Big problem I think. Many old blades come to you either heavily knicked or sharpened with big ugly curves in them. Really, its the first thing you should do, before you start grinding the bevel.

This is where my flat tool rest becomes so handy. It works like that diamond stick dressing jig thingy I talked about earlier, but, instead of truing the stone your truing your blade perfectly straight...well, as straight as that flat tool rest is anyway ( good idea to have this tool rest removeable so you can flattern when it wears out of straight).

Just use that carpatec jig (eclypse ?) again. I'll take you through grinding a blade. In picture 1, shows a problem blade. Not too bad, but as you can see its not square. It needs general re-grinding anyway. From an old plane.

Clamp it in your carpatec jig. I'd tighten it with a screwdriver to get tight enough. And position it flat on the tool rest with blade edge a little above the stone.....sort of like picture 2.

Now,,,picture 3...... you turn on the grinder, and slowly drop the blade with light hammer taps. Each hammer tap should drop it slightly. You can be quite deft with it. Its like adjusting a blade in a wooden plane. You get down low for a good look, and move the jig back and forth across the stone to find the lowest point on the edge. And just tap until this lowest point hits the stone; sparks fly, and you just keep tapping and moving back and forth, grinding away until you have straightened out the edge completely. ie. all nicks have been ground away and you have a flat glint that exstends all the way from one corner to the other. Don't go too far with it though. Do as little as possible. Because the more you do the more bevel grinding latter. Just enough to get past all the defects. ........So, you end up with a flat glinting edge like in picture 4. Not a good picture, but you get my drift.

More raving next post......

JDarvall

8th October 2005, 09:15 PM

Now time to grind bevel. First set the distance, any old table edge will do. You can easily record these distances for future reference by just checking the angle with a protractor. Run a line along edge and name it. But keep in mind, these distances will change slowly with time as your stone gets smaller and smaller from wear and re-dressing. ....picture 1.

That flat glinting edge done from previous post is the focus in bevel grinding. What you'll find after straightening an edge is that this 'flat' will vary in thickness, dependent on how it was previously sharpened. What you have to do FIRST, is grind down the thickest parts first so that this glinting flat has the same thickness along entire edge. THEN, you take full sweeps of the stone taking this flat right down to nothing; to burr over the entire length at essentially the same time. So there's a lot of pulling blade off rest to check out changes mixed in with all that grinding.

When nearing burr, I'd re-dress the stone to help give you some more touch....and when it burrs sparks will start to fly up over the back of the blade. Can feel where its burring by rubbing finger accross the back of the bladel...... The trick all the time is to keep your fingers right up to the blade edge to detect heat. And just pull back and let cool when it gets too hot. Like in picture 2,,,,,,,,picture 3 shows when its burring. Like the way the camera caught those sparks. (normally use both hands and have finger up close, but, in this last picture I was having trouble juggling the camera in other hand at same time :D )

picture 4 - shows the result. A squared up blade edge, ground about 25 degrees, ready for final sharpening on stones or whatever......

Picture 5 - Just wanted to show, that you can use this whole flat tool rest idea to re-grind anything. Even the thinnest and shortest blades. Just make a different holding device for each kind of blade. I even sharpen my 12" thickness blades this way. Cause the process is always the same with every blade
.
1- straighten edge past all defects .
2- regrind bevel up to your newly straightened edge.
3- hone the edge at slightly greater angle. ...thats it really. ....
...oh, don't forget to feather edges, and then there's backbeveling....etc...

Hope this helps,,,,,hope I haven't told anyone how to suck eggs :eek:
Where'd that saying come from anyway ? sucking eggs ? :confused: Doesn't make sense.

Pat

8th October 2005, 10:14 PM

I spent today playing with my new MkII. I got the old Mortice beastie out and gave it a good sharpening. Thsn I thought, gee the old bashers (Stanleys) could do with a sharpen. Lapped the backs, then sharpened the primary bevel to 25 degrees, with a micro bevel to finish off. I had to use the scary method as I do not have a grinder. Wet/Dry 1/2 sheets: 120/360/800 then on to 1200/4000/8000 waterstones then the Veritas crayon on mdf.

I have to be careful now, they all cut thru the leather tool rolls easily! :)

Waldo

9th October 2005, 12:14 AM

G'day,

NewLou and Apricotripper this is excellent stuff.

I saw a demo on sharpening chisels and plane blades at the Show - the bloke was doing just as the same as Apricotripper has showed here, makes very simple and perfect sence - no need for elaborate nonsense.

Apricotripper your post and pics are beaut! I've been meaning to get a 8" grinder for a while now and this just adds to my reasons for it's movement to the top of my list.

derekcohen

9th October 2005, 01:23 AM

I've been meaning to get a 8" grinder for a while now

Waldo

Do yourself a favour and buy a bench belt sander instead. Set up a jig on that. Easier, better, safer, more versatile. Leave the grinder alone (or at least to Jake :D ). Have a gander in the "Best ..." or do a Search.

Regards from Perth

Derek

JDarvall

9th October 2005, 09:06 AM

Easier, better, safer, more versatile.

:D yeh,,,,you wish jellyfish....

Easier ? - its just a flat bar sitting above the wheel. How can you get easier than that.

Better ? - How ?...... How do you straighten an edge on a belt sander? How do ensure that the tool rest is parallel to the belt ? fiddly alignment ? How do you compensate for the inherent wobble in that belt and wear. Ultimately, how do you re-dress that belt ? :D Thats the problem. I can't see any way that beats the accuracy of re-dressing to ensure that the top of the tool rest IS parallel to the cutting medium. Probably could attempt it with belt sander, but I doubt in practise it could yeild a better result.

safer ? - how ? .... I suppose if you were drunk you might get your finger stuck between the tool rest and the stone.....but if that sort of thing was a worry, you'd have to rule out many machines in the shed.

Versatile ? - my setup can already re-straighten and grind a bevel for ALL blades.....say again... 'ALL blades' :D How can you get more versatile than that ?

Hang on,,,,,your stirring arn't ya Derek, cheeky bugga :D

derekcohen

9th October 2005, 02:13 PM

Heh, heh, heh ... :D :D :D

Jake, this is just toooo easy-peasy. Like shooting fish in a barrel. Sorry mate...

Easier ? - its just a flat bar sitting above the wheel. How can you get easier than that.

Exactly. My jig for the belt sander was "inspired" by the Tormek, and the aim was to make it work with the same ease. Here is Mk I (which is the one I expect most woodworkers to make. My Mk II is more ambitious and for someone who is prepared to do a little metalwork).

<div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Tools%20that%20I%20have%20made/Belt%20Sander%20Grinder/BeltSanderBladeGrinderMkIoverview.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br />

Better ? - How ?...... How do you straighten an edge on a belt sander? How do ensure that the tool rest is parallel to the belt ? fiddly alignment ?

First off, anything that you grind will come out perfectly square as long as you set it up for a square grind. The cheaper, pressed steel machines will eventually warp a little. I addressed this by adding a piece of steel (from an old handsaw blade) while Major Panic chose a piece of glass. This works wonderfully and is a cheap and quick modification. Note that the caste iron beds (on my Mk II) do not warp. Rock solid.

<div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Tools%20that%20I%20have%20made/Belt%20Sander%20Grinder/BeltSanderGlassPlatten.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br />

The second point is that you set your grinding angle in a way that is quick, precise and leads to repeatable angle grinds. In the same way as you set up your Eclipse guide, bevels are determined by their projection over the front of the Blade Holder. Here is my angle finder (made from scrap Jarrah and a steel ruler):

<div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Tools%20that%20I%20have%20made/Belt%20Sander%20Grinder/Combined5and6.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br />

Third point - getting the Tool Rest parallel to the belt surface is about as much work as it took you to get yours parallel to the front of the grinder wheel! In Mk I my method was to use a drill press to set it from above (see the article for details). A variation of this is simply to add a slightly oversize hole at one side of the body, and use this for vertical adjustment. For Mk II I got more technical and added an adjustment screw. This is retrofitable to the Mk I - essentially just a machine screw from the underside. All this is "fit once and then forget forever"

<div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Tools%20that%20I%20have%20made/Belt%20Sander%20Grinder/BeltSanderBladeGrinderMkIIadjuster.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br />

How do you compensate for the inherent wobble in that belt and wear. Ultimately, how do you re-dress that belt ? Thats the problem. I can't see any way that beats the accuracy of re-dressing to ensure that the top of the tool rest IS parallel to the cutting medium.

Ahh! Now there's the rub. There is no wobble in a belt sander. And you do not have to re-dress a belt - unlike the grinder, where the wheel will wear progressively smaller (as you pointed out) and throw off all your measurements. When a belt wears out you replace it. Cost? A belt is about $4 and could last about 3 - 6 months. I would add that the flatness of a belt is significantly more reliably accurate than a redressed wheel.

safer ? - how ? ....

Jake, the belt sander is not just a safer tool for the human operator, but it is safer for the blades (which what I was referring to).

Consider than the average grinder spins at 3500 rpm. This speed creates a lot of heat. It takes only a split second to burn (blue) the edge of the bevel. I know that you say that are good at controlling the grind, but it does take considerable concentration and practice to develop a light, delicate touch. Most newbies are put off the grinder for this very reason. It is inherently a dangerous tool. Which is why slow grinders (1700 rpm) and wet grinders (Tormek) have been developed.

On the other hand, the belt sander spins at 1440 rpm. The length of the belt helps to dissipate the heat generated, plus you have a wider area to grind on. There is heat, but it is much, much less and you get so much earlier warning that you really have to be a total Klutz to burn an edge. I could safely grind on the belt sander at least 10 times longer than on the grinder on the same spot on the blade. No contest at all!

Versatile ? - my setup can already re-straighten and grind a bevel for ALL blades.....say again... 'ALL blades' How can you get more versatile than that ?

On the belt sander set up I have I can do any plane blade you care to mention. There is no limit to thickness or width or bevel angle. I can do skew blades, scraper blades, and spokeshave blades. I can grind the perfect --- perfect! --- scrub plane radius from scratch in under 5 minutes. And I mean an 1/8" thick square end into a radiused bevel that has a 8000+ edge (can yours do that?).

Here is the scrub plane jig:

<div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Tools%20that%20I%20have%20made/Belt%20Sander%20Grinder/Scrubjigcombined.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br />

But even more to the point, by changing a belt the belt sander can change grit. I usually do a rough grind at either 80 or 120 grit. I have belt that go 240, 400, 600 and 1300 grit (a 2000 grit belt is available). It takes 10 - 20 seconds to change a belt and be honing at the next level. With several blade holders I can hone several blades (plane or chisel) at the same time, and each set for a different bevel angle. Can your grinder do that? I know that your response will be that you only grind a basic bevel then hone with a cloth wheel. You may be able to do this (and I do know some others who also work this way) but most will not be able to replicate your methods. The hollow edge you grind is very delicate and easy to burn. The edge on the belt sander is flat, which is much stronger and less easily damaged.

Let us take this a step further. This whole thread was begun by New Lou with freehand honing in mind. A question for you - how easy is it to go directly from the grinder to the sharpening medium (sandpaper, waterstones, etc) and freehand the desired bevel? It will come down to how accurate your hollow grind is, that is, can you place the bevel on the media and hold it flat to hone? Well, you can do this straight from the belt sander. The bevel angle is not only honed at the correct angle (for flat honing), but the surface could be taken from 120 to 240 to 600 grits and then directly to a 6000 waterstone. Vot u tink? Of course, if you plan to use microbevels, just do the 120 grit, stick the blade in the LV Honing Guide Mk II, hone a 1 degree micro bevel on the 1200, then finish on the 6000. This all takes about 5 minutes (tops) from A-Z.

Over to you :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

Lignum

9th October 2005, 06:52 PM

Exelent run down Derek... I to will have a muck around with that method and see what the outcome will be like as it dose look to be quick and accurate... Your way of measuring blade overhang is good, mine is the same principle but they are a series of individual ones permantly attached to the end of my sharpening bench. There is one for all occasions, from firmers to mortising, spoke plane to Jack. I still like the Aluminimun oxide wheel as i prefere a hollow grind (except on my mortising chisels) But your system looks good, and im keen to try it. ;)

j.stevens

9th October 2005, 07:55 PM

outback

9th October 2005, 08:07 PM

j. I have never used this method, however a quick search on scary sharp showed a total of 110 hits on this forum.

Google gave 1090 hits for the same term on Australian sites.

So I reckon someone else has discovered the secret.

kiwigeo

9th October 2005, 08:27 PM

I can get a pretty mean edge on my chisels and plane blades with sandpaper spray adhesived down on to glass. I believe this is popular in the U.S. I used evertything from 180 to 1200 or so. Anyone else any experience with this method. I havn't found self adhesive sandpaper here although its apparently quite common in the states.

I sometimes use wet and dry on plate glass for working faces of chisels and plane irons. I find once the paper is wet the surface tension hokds it flat to the glass....have never bothered with adhesive.

Gaza

9th October 2005, 08:46 PM

6" angle grinder

So i should stop using the 9in grinder to sharpen my drill bits.

I knew bugger all on sharping till now, one of guys at works dad did all of our hand tools for us and the planner blades etc go to the saw doctor.

This is my plan of attack, i have a nice new set of cheisl waiting to go that i have been to scared to touch as i had no idea how to get the right bevel on them.

1. White wheel on bench grinder to remove major dings, (NB dipping in water to keep cool)
2. 1000 wet stone with guide at 25deg
3. 5000 or 6000 wet stone at 25deg
4. 5000 / 6000 wet stone to micro bevel at 30deg.

is this ok, what should i lube with kero or a compund.
go thread Lou:cool:

JDarvall

9th October 2005, 11:43 PM

Excellent stuff Derek,,,,,, clearly you've put much thought and time into your belt sanding idea. That angle finder says a lot. I mean, I would never have bothered to go as far as to make a device such as that. Shows much devotion. I really respect that. And in all your pictures....everythings so CLEAN ! :D

I think our ideas are essentially the same, generally. They do the same thing really.

I see whats happening when you say that the edge straightens itself while bevel grinding. And it must work. Since you've been using it for a while no doubt. But, what would worry me is,,,,if I can describe it :rolleyes: ........if the blade edge that your sharpening is badly off square, and your intentions are to square it up. And you don't square it up initially like I reakon you should by taking it straight in, and just grind away the bevel like you do with your belt sander, that would mean that portions of your blade will burr before others . Right ? . So, these areas will have to endure continued grinding until the rest of the blades edge catches up and starts to burr as well.
.....wouldn't these burred areas that continue to burr over a extended time be a worry to you. I know you say the belt turns at a slower speed. But , I'd imagine the heat build up at such thin spots in the blade would be harmful anyway. Put me straight if I've missed something here, eh.

You see, this is why I like to take a blade straight in first. Because when you take a blade straight in, heat buildup is minimal, compared to bevel grinding, because your grinding at less material. I've never burn't a blade this way. With this flat tool rest, its really is a very quick controlled process.

As for the heat build up problems, you say are solved by the belt sander. yeh, see your point. I just find it hard to see exactly why it should work significantly better. I know you mention, longer belt and width. I agree that would improve things. But I don't think you would be able to do the job faster than a skilled person with a stone. Why ? your belt sanders travelling at half the speed.

People don't redress their stones frequently enough. And who wants to. Its hard to do freehand. Most people haven't even tried anyway. But, if you do it often. Just a little pass with some dressing jig, like I posted somewhere back in this thread, and often, you will continually grind like there is no tomorrow. If you never dress a stone, I agree you can blue that edge the first second it touches the stone.

Anyway, heat build up is NEVER a problem as long as your fingers are up close to detect heat. Cause your fingers burn before the blade will. Its such a shore thing that I never burn a blade, even when I'm half asleep. And not because I'm skillful, but because I don't like my fingers burning. :D .The only time I have burn't a blade is with a straight razor on the buffing wheel, because it was just so thin it would burn before I felt a thing. But no problems with any other tool.

So, really belt or stone speed has no significance. You can control the heat. A fast stone just means you will pull back more often to let cool than a slow one. But a fast stone will cut faster anyway..... So, whats the issue ?

You may be able to do this ......but most will not be able to replicate your methods.
Why not ? ....... dry grinders have been given the flick, and wet grinders are in BECAUSE people don't true them often enough, if at all. If you true a grinder often enough with a easy to use jig......ANYBODY CAN. That is why I was flogging this flat sectioned tool rest idea. Because it allows you to retrue a wheel often enough to give you the control you need to easily repair nicks and grind bevel all with a simple honing jig. And most already have a grinder.

As for the stone getting smaller and smaller, which changes angle set. It happens so slowly, even with frequent re-truing, its no big deal. Just something to keep in mind. You just check the angle you've ground on occation (like every year :D ).

And that scrub plane grinding...the radius idea....well why couldn't that grinder setup of mine not do that. Derek, there essentially the same setup. A bar above a grit. Anyway, how often would a scrub plane be used by most ? ...... rarely, if ever. I use a similar bar setup above a buffing wheel as well. There is no reason why a similar jig can't be used to hone that blade after the grinder on this buffing wheel. Far faster... no belt changing, WITH similar results. rounding is never a problem straight from a burr, ESPECIALLY, if its jigged.

Can your belt sander, sharpen thickness and jointer blades ? ....Because unless you can square off an edge straight, past any nail nicks etc, like you can with a flat rest off a grinder, you most probably can't. ooooooooh. :D
My grinder works well with the buffing in this instance, because there is really no problem with rounding with blades that rotate this way. In fact, I've read that rounding is a good thing. Router bit manufacturers flog that aspect as some kind of improvement. ........

:confused: . You see, where are these great improvements that you imply ?

Listen, Derek. You've got great ideas. Really respect your stuff. But, IMO, its not particularily ......Easier, better, safer, or more versatile than mine.....the most important functions AND little extras are met with both ideas, I think. Else , I assure you, I'd be the first to throw my grinder and buffing wheels away.

Nice little debate we've got going here, eh. :)

derekcohen

10th October 2005, 01:57 PM

Hi Jake

Thanks for the comments, and yes it is a
Nice little debate we've got going here, eh.

May I say that you underestimate the high level of skill you have when using a grinder. I have used one for a great many years and still am very unhappy about the results I get. I have a 6" white 60 grit wheel on mine and keep it dressed.

I wonder how long it would take a novice to feel confident grinding on a belt sander verses a grinding wheel? That would be a good experiment. Perhaps we can rope in a few willing partcipants? What do you think?

One of the best tips I got on grinding on a wheel came from a sharpening video of Rob Cosman. He hollow grinds his blades freehand. What he demonstrated was his method of moving the blade to the midpoint of the wheel face, running the blade to its mid point only, then withdrawing it from the wheel (so as not the clip the side of the blade on the edge of the wheel), then re-entering the wheel again at the midpoint ... and so on.. a constant movement of up, along, down, up, along, down (does this make sense?).

Incidentally, the scrub plane blade jig was developed when I was using a grinding wheel, so of course you can use it on your grinder as well. A shallower (lless arced) version is terrific on a spare Jack plane. For example, my LV Scrub plane has a 3" radius blade, while my Stanley #5 1/2 has a 6" radius.

The belt sander grinds very Fast - ignore the fact that it runs at a slower speed than the grinder - but it does it Cooler than the grinder because of the slow speed. Perhaps some of those readers here who have actually watched me grind blades for them (Adam is one, Peter another, several others. Both Rocker and Major Panic have their own versions) will attest to the speed of this machine. Just one example was the grinding of a thick blade into a scrub blade.

Grinding square is no big deal, as I mentioned before. I have not made a jig for a thicknesser or planer because I do not own such. But it really would not be difficult (I have done something like this for grinding the bevels on the side of bevel-edged chisels I have made). The feature of this belt sander setup is its precision, which is more than can be said for a grinder. I am not just referring to square ends of blades (as I said before, this is completed automatically when a bevel is ground - just set the projection where you want the bevel edge to start, and go), I am referring to bevel angles.

Now Jake, you have shown some fancy footwork and side-stepped certain questions I asked :D Such as can you/do you have the ability to freehand directly from the grind? Do you grind to a specific bevel angle, or do you add the hollow to the bevel regardless of the angle? How close to the edge of the blade do you grind? Can you grind skew blades?

We are listening :D :D :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

Andy Mac

10th October 2005, 02:34 PM

Thanks guys once again for your interesting and well balanced postings. I have been reading and rereading, and starting to come to some conclusions!
Derek, I have a couple of queries I hope you don't mind answering. Regards that wonderful jig you've put together for your belt sander, I take it the 2 legs, coming off the main bar, socket in and out of the wood or metal lugs on the side of your machine. Are they loose, in that they aren't retained positively? I noticed an allen head bolt pointing up from the bottom of one metal mount block...is that to adjust height at one or both side/s thereby truing the main bar to the bed of the sander? Is the main bar welded to those legs or screwed together somehow?
I might modify that system for my Scangrind wet grinder at least, maybe my belt sander too, but it's on a bench grinder and rotates the wrong way!
One day I too will have sharp tools!!:o
Regards,

derekcohen

10th October 2005, 03:18 PM

Hi Andy

The tool rest "legs" are loose. You can lift them in-and-out of the holders. They drop in, are quite secure (no wobble), so you just lift them out each time you replace the belt (otherwise belt changing wouldnot be realistic).

The allen head bolts are just for fine tuning the height. I place a spacer under the bar when setting this initially (so it is perfectly parallel to the belt sander's bed). See the following link (it seems to be broken in the "Best of the Best" section):

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=16156

The "main bar" - the tool rest - is not welded. It is a steel drawer pull bought at Bunnings.

With regard your Scangrind machine, I have one too and have (rudimentarily at any rate - since I was just experimenting - put one on the Scangrind. Do a search here for Scangrind and there is a picture).

Note that the direction of grind is more important with a high speed grinder - it must turn towards you. Otherwise there is the danger of lifting the blade out of your hands and flinging it ....! With the belt sander it is not critical. I prefer to grind with the belt turning towards the blade (like the grinder), but I have also ground from the other side of the tool rest (for a hollow grind) and this worked well. Basically I prefer to have the opportunity to angle the bed of the belt sander at 45 degrees since then all sparks are directed away from oneself.

If you have not seen the original articles, then you will also not be aware of the Honing Plate that is part of the design.

For interest, as an aside, I must keep my remarks to the Mk II version since the Mk I will be published as some stage in Fine Woodworking mag (I have no idea in what form or when).

Regards from Perth

Derek

JDarvall

10th October 2005, 05:27 PM

And thankyou Derek. Not really particularly clever. Really just a clumbsy bugger thats lucky to still have most of his fingers.

I wonder how long it would take a novice to feel confident grinding on a belt sander verses a grinding wheel? That would be a good experiment. Perhaps we can rope in a few willing partcipants? What do you think?
I don't really know how'd you go about that. I agree it does sound interesting. Much success, IMO, is motivated by personal patience and persistance. It might be hard organising newby twins to partcipate in an experiment . :D ....ie. They'd have to have to be like minded I think for a good test. Heaven forbid if I got the unmotivated bloke on the bench grinder, and you got some wizzkid. :D

One of the best tips I got on grinding on a wheel came from a sharpening video of Rob Cosman. He hollow grinds his blades freehand. What he demonstrated was his method of moving the blade to the midpoint of the wheel face, running the blade to its mid point only, then withdrawing it from the wheel (so as not the clip the side of the blade on the edge of the wheel), then re-entering the wheel again at the midpoint ... and so on.. a constant movement of up, along, down, up, along, down (does this make sense?).
Bit confused by this. Why would he be going up and down ? Is that a silly question ? I just go side to side.

I only freehand grind chisels. especially the narrow blades. I don't feel confident enough grinding wide blades this way.

For me what works is to have a grinding wheel that overhangs the table, so you can get right on top of it, with the chisel vertical or at least near too, and can look straight down and literially watch that flat glint I talked about earlier disappear. With that sort of feedback I can do a good job. Most rests don't support blades vertically in this fashion, such that you can't see what your doing as much. I just can't do it. I just stuff it up with this regular setup.
.....anyway, with the chisel vertical and pressed firmly into your groin in a two handed grip, with again a finger or two right up near edge, I just rock from side to side. I found you have more control if you rock your entire body, not just your hands. (a few ques there :p )Bit like lathe work.
.....after grinding a little while, you'll start to develop a hollow that will shape the stone (obviously). But the deeper this hollow gets, the greater bearing you'll have, and consequently the easier it will be to maintain the right angle.,,,such that you will end up with a consistant hollow grind, not some multi-faced mess. ... And when it burrs, I just take to the buffing wheel and do the same. But this time your just buffing the tip and watching for the burr to kick off. Then back off on a waterstone .....Thats what I do anyway. A picture would probably help here. Haven't got one.

The belt sander grinds very Fast - ignore the fact that it runs at a slower speed than the grinder - but it does it Cooler than the grinder because of the slow speed. Perhaps some of those readers here who have actually watched me grind blades for them (Adam is one, Peter another, several others. Both Rocker and Major Panic have their own versions) will attest to the speed of this machine. Just one example was the grinding of a thick blade into a scrub blade.
I believe you Derek. Sounds impressive.

Grinding square is no big deal, as I mentioned before. I have not made a jig for a thicknesser or planer because I do not own such. But it really would not be difficult (I have done something like this for grinding the bevels on the side of bevel-edged chisels I have made). The feature of this belt sander setup is its precision, which is more than can be said for a grinder. I am not just referring to square ends of blades (as I said before, this is completed automatically when a bevel is ground - just set the projection where you want the bevel edge to start, and go), I am referring to bevel angles. ..So that continual burning burr worry isn't a problem ? (thats a mouthful isn't it...say that quickly :D )

... are you talking about the precision you've previously mentioned that you thinks needed for BU planes ? I think, that with a simple jig you can quite precise. At least to within a couple of degrees. I mean, you target 25 degrees, you might get 26 or 24....or on a bad day, 27 or 23 degrees. For the majority of tools I don't think we need to be more accurate than this. IMO. But, each to there own.

Now Jake, you have shown some fancy footwork and side-stepped certain questions I asked :D Such as can you/do you have the ability to freehand directly from the grind? Do you grind to a specific bevel angle, or do you add the hollow to the bevel regardless of the angle? How close to the edge of the blade do you grind? Can you grind skew blades?

.. you make me think here. The grinding bevel that concerns me is the first few mill only, excluding the hollow ground (make sense ?). I grind to near burr or lightly burr it. I prefer 'near burr'. But more feedback if you lightly burr cause you can feel it with your fingertips. Then honing latter at higher angle. A couple of degrees. I hone a lot with buffing wheel the first 5 mill or so, but only after grinding a burred edge. Its about right. I don't know how to measure this increased angle. At a guess a few degrees. But, what I do know, is it consistantly works without rounding problems. Blades hold up. I use stones, just like you for plane blades. 1200 jap stones, then 6000. 8000, if that bloody cat hadn't detroyed it. Feather plane blades off the stones by pressuring the corners in the jig. You know what I mean. Slightly increased angles between them. And then backbevel. For chisels, jointer thicknesser blades, I buff. Haven't tried backbeveling them yet. One day.

I do grind skew blades, in the same way I grind other blades off that grinder. The same holder is then used to hone them on the stones. I might have a picture here somewhere. yeh, I do. Can make out the jig. Just holds the skewed blade at the right angle for squaring off and bevel grind on the grinding wheel. But then straight to stones, using same jig. I use this skewed plane for shooting mitres.

seeya. :)

derekcohen

11th October 2005, 01:21 AM

Jake

Here is my sketch of Rob Cosman's grinding technique. I went Aaahhhh when I saw him do it. Until then I was constantly burning the corner edge of the blade on the edge of the wheel.

<div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/GrindingRobCosmantechnique.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br />

#1 - move the blade up to the wheel, left edge of blade to centre of wheel.
#2 - move the blade along the wheel to the left
#3 - stop grinding as the right side of the blade gets to the centre of the wheel. Pull the blade down and away from the wheel (i.e. so the blade never travels fully across the wheel)
#4 - move the blade to the wheel again, this time right edge to centre of wheel.
#5 - move the blade along the wheel to the right ..... (and just repeat the process both left and right ....)

Hope this makes sense.

Regards from Perth

Derek

JDarvall

11th October 2005, 07:58 AM

Thanks Derek, I'll give it a go.

Bit confused on why you were burning blade all the time. It sort of impleys the stone wasn't dressed enough. I don't really know in your case.

Really have to dress every few minutes, IMO. Makes a mess, if that bothers you. Understandable if it does ; its a really fine powder that just gets everywhere. Best to mount the grinder away from clean areas. That you haven't mentioned the mess, suggests to me that you weren't dressing it that often. Correct me if wrong.

If your fingers were right up close there shouldn't have been a problem either ......anyway. (shrug) :)

Thanks again for the pictures. Pictures always clearify things. :)

If genuinely interested, I can try and get some more pictures to show the way I freehand grind. May take a few days though,,,,I'm in strife with the family at the moment. Spending too much time on the computer they say. :o ....and the last time I was in the shed with that camera, I was busted by the SWMBO. Sposed to be spending that sort of time working on the house you see. :D .....but I'm really enjoying photography. lot of fun. And its invaluable (theres that word again) in these posts I think. I'll make sense with a picture.

Seeya :)

derekcohen

11th October 2005, 11:50 AM

Bit confused on why you were burning blade all the time. It sort of impleys the stone wasn't dressed enough. I don't really know in your case.

Jake

What happens is that, if I run a blade fully across the wheel and I do not keep the blade at the same height (or lift it) as it exits the other side of the wheel, then the blade drops very slightly and the edge the blade catches the side edge of the wheel. This causes it to burn.

In other words, it is technique-related - but it is so easy to do (do a poll here and no doubt almost every user will say the same).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Clinton1

11th October 2005, 01:38 PM

Derek and Jake,

Both ideas sound great, and I am sure that you both get great results.
I am interested because I saw a demo on sharpening, and have since tried the technique.
I'll describe it here:
A light touch (essential) on the bench grinder running a 40 grit soft aluminium oxide wheel. Run the chisel from the centre to edge and back across, staying on the wheel. Finger up near the edge to feel for heat. Look for the sparks to run down the chisel and to not kick up. Apparently this means the edge has formed relative to the angle that the tool is engaging the wheel at, and is not "oblique" to it. Importantly, use a compass to set the angle to grind at, hold the chisel over the rest at the angle and mark the chisel. The mark is the guide to keep on the rest edge to ensure the angle is consistant. The demonstrator used a clamping jig over the chisel shaft that than abuted the tool rest to determine the angle, but I haven't done that yet. Light touches, feel any heat and remove the chisel (do it lighter next time). Heat = doing it too heavy, use a lighter touch. As soon as the edge is clean (past any edge nicks) and the bevel is reformed - turn off the grinder. Then its on to the waterstones/W&D (I'm still on scary sharp, but plan to get some waterstones. Make that edge shine/glean for the first 1 - 2 mm. Done. (I'm using the A&A grinder that is at work, mines on the "to get" list)
The important (for me) tips: finger heat sensor, sparks determine finish of grinding (if past nicks), a jig would set angles and square better than my eye.

Any other method that achives a very sharp edge is fne with me, only "wrong" if the person trying it doesn't like it... reminds me of a performance assessment "could have done things differently, but couldn't have done things better". :D It seems a matter of - anyway is great so long as the individual is happy with it, any way is bad so long as the individual has tried it and disliked it, for whatever reason.

I like this way over my last method, scary sharp, due to the speed. I'll use scary sharp at the highest grit as the touch up method untill I get the waterstones, then make a decision. I imagine the higher grit waterstones will mean a sharper edge, better formed. It kicks all over oilstones alone as I feel the edge stays sharper longer. Oilstones didn't do it for me - messy and the edge seemed duller - I like chisels to be very sharp as I like the control I feel that gives. As for knicks, later I should get a second set of chisels to be used on 2nd hand timber, however I still drop chisels onto the concrete every now and then :o .
I don't have a bench mounted belt sander, otherwise I'd try that, and I see that it may be invaluable when doing blades.

I guess what I'm saying is that I like this method, although I will not say its the be all and end all. With my grinder in the shed there will be serious attention paid to Jakes straight bar system, maybe with a few jigs permanently mounted as well as the diamond dresser.
Dereks belt sander method is not being entertained, because I have no intention of purchasing one - that is the only reason.
Gone forever is the jig allowing a file to reliably dress off the chisel once every blue moon. Scary sharp will stay, probably only for chisel backs when new, and to dress the stones.
I've got to help a mate extend a hay shed later in the year, using bush timber on a block with no lectrickery.. the chisels will go out sharp, and the oilstones will go with me, certainly no flat surface (glass or my granite block) and Wet and Dry paper. Again, horses for courses and whatever works best for me is the way I'll go - aren't I a tart!

Cheers All,
Clinton.

JDarvall

11th October 2005, 02:45 PM

you tart clinton !!! :D :D ...... yeh, I know,,,I know the truth,,,, your not entertaining Dereks idea because its not as good as mine. eh, eh :p
Your right I think, Clinton, Definetly lots of ways of doing it.

Derek, I think I see your point. I never tried this other technique. I don't see why so much movement is needed. I would have thought just going side to side, rocking your whole body slightly from one foot to another while the blade was fixed at the right angle against your body and your hands is practical enough.

I can't say I ever had that problem you mentioned. I always leave enough of the blade on the stone, so there's enough stability such that nothing ever catches the side of the stone. I think I'd have to see Rob Cosmans techique in person to understand it properly.

I'm definetly going to show my free hand technique sometime with a few photos, to clearify what I mean. I try and post it this week.

JDarvall

11th October 2005, 07:36 PM

Here ya go. My freehand sharpening technique for chisels. Don't mind critisism.
WARNING : Can see my groin. :eek: (I'm wearing clothes !)
WARNING : Do not attempt this technique with a morning erection. Not clever.

picture 1 - I'll use a japanese cranked neck chisel for the demo. Not supposed to hollow grind these buggers. But I did anyway, works fine. Just use for paring. A jap mortise chisel may not respond to hollow grinding though .

picture 2 - First I'd square it off. Mostly don't need to. But if you've got a nick or something you should. Because I regularily re-dress square with a dressing jig the stones trued up. So I know I can just take the blade straight in to true. Can nibble up to a line you've drawn on the blade, or, if your lazy, like me, I just hold my square up to and take it straight in, and just square it up by eye. Quite reliable with practise.

picture 3 and 4 - after square up, time to grind bevel. The trick to grinding freehand, IMO, is to not do it :D ... put it another way, you position your body in the most supporting position to ensure you keep your blade as steady as possible. Your body works like a jig. For me, you can't beat your body for this. What I do is grip the blade with thumb up close to blade at top, pulling down hard, such that the blade wants to rotate around your little finger. To stop it rotating, you just stick the handle into your groin . :D Careful now :D ....Point is, its a very steady stance, with the whole chisel quite upright and tight against your body. Finger close to blade edge, and because the chisels vertical you can watch the edge better. IMO.

Picture 5 - Start by rubbing the heal of the bevel on the wheel first, then bring down until the gap between the stone and edge disappears. (arrre, I see what you mean Derek, by going up and down :D Do it myself :o ) Grind away, moving from side to side watching that glinting edge disappear. When move from side to side, you just rock from one foot to other. Don't move arms. Your whole grip against your body must stay as rigid as possible.

more next post......

JDarvall

11th October 2005, 07:39 PM

Picture 1 - I stuffed up a little here, I was holding the camera(blame the camera eh :D ). Nearly burred too far one side. See how its glinting one side and not other. That glint should extend all the way accross, with equal thickness, and disappear all at once. Anyway thats the glint I'm talking about. That flat, if you can monitor it, will give you all the feedback you need to control freehand sharpening. This is why the chisels vertical. ....and don't forget a powerful light.

Picture 2 - Anyway I fixed the problem. And here's the result. A lightly burred edge. You can just make out the lamination line these jap chisels have.

picture 3 and 4 - Grinding done. Ready to hone. I buff chisels. No stones. Too fast to ignore. No jig, just freehand. Again its like the grinding. you present the heal of the bevel to the wheel first, then drop the chisel handle down slightly so the gap disappears and the hollow grind sits neatly into the buffing wheels curvature. Pretty good fit. You'll know it when your in.....

But, you only need to buff the very edge, IMO. Speeds things up again. So I just drop the handle just a little more.....do the side to side rocking thing again with that powerful stance....you'll see the burr kick off, if you squint :D .....do a touch more buffing after that. Then back off on polishing stone. Done.

picture 5 - shows the result. Very sharp result in a couple minutes tops.

Buffing wheels to work well must be vibration free. ok. Well trued. When wheels rotating it should feel like soap to touch. Just slips. Not bouncing around. Or else your stuffed.

JDarvall

11th October 2005, 07:43 PM

Regarding that buffing compound. It ant cheap. $20 a bar. If you got rats about, lock it up. Because the little bastards have already gone through one bar. And just look what they have done to my last bar. :mad: buggers !!!

Auld Bassoon

11th October 2005, 08:11 PM

One mustn't deny the wee fellows, they're just trying to keep their gnashers nice and sharp toohttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

NewLou

11th October 2005, 10:50 PM

Gidday:D:D:D

What a pleasure it has been to watch this thread evolve into a truely great thread for beginners who are dealving into the Dark Art of sharpening.

I think all of us have enjoyed the contrabutions from Jake and Derek in particular................A big thx from all the Newbies out here:D:D:D

In particular Jake who has shown some great pointers on freehanding..............Obviously a high level Dark Art;) from a master who appears to underate his abilities!!!!

............As always contrabutions from Lord Darth Cohen highly prized & a wealth of knowledge to us all!!! Indeed it is has been great getting some insight; ideas and practical knowledge from some more of our experienced Forum members .............A BIG THX FELLAS!!!!!!!!!

NewLou

11th October 2005, 11:07 PM

GIdday:)

After some thought I think after all the work previous posters have done it would be great for newbies the less experienced or just those wanting to share the journey to do a few posts on their set up why they chose it and how you go about your sharpening process.

The idea is not to retort each others style or process but rather just share what you do so that others may consider your style learn from your process or perhaps just gain some new options or insights!!!!

I think previous posts have sumed it up when suggesting theres no one perfect sharpening system ..................... We all have something to offer!!!

...............I'm just waiting on a tool rest I've ordered so I'll start mine once she arrives!!! REmember the brief is not to champion a technique but rather share the process & give your rationale behind why it works for you!!!!!

Regards Lou:D:D:D

scooter

11th October 2005, 11:30 PM

I have previously used w & dry on a piece of aluminium plate for my honing, and (relatively recently) added grinding on a 8" cheapy grinder, stock grey wheels, with a Carbatec tool rest & mitre slide.

Haven't actually used the grinder much, "gunna" use the suggestion of 's re: progressively moving the wheels around to balance them, then dress them with a single point diamond dresser I bought yonks back.

Bought 1200 & 6000 King stones from Timbecon to replace the scary sharp process, just going to get a container for same and some plasterboard mesh as per Derek.

Enjoyed Terry Gordon's article in AWR a few issues back, hence the choice of stones.

FWIW.........cheers.............Sean

Waldo

11th October 2005, 11:32 PM

G'day,

This thread should go in the Best of the Best. I don't know when I'll be getting my bench grinder, it's been on the list a long time now and when I do I'll be coming back to this thread to go over again and read up on how to sharpen on a bench grinder.

Like all blokes my list of wants and must haves is long. This is a must have thread and thanks heaps for those how have posted their techniques. :)

Ausworkshop

11th October 2005, 11:36 PM

I sharpen my chisels after they get blunt from opening paint tins and screwing in screws. I start off with a rock in the front garden on the lefthand side of my Letterbox, then I go through different grits of pavment out the front of my house finally stroping them with a double bevel after a quick rub on my wife's leathery foot (she only has one as she lost her other leg in a nasty incident helping me mount my Triton saw under the kitchen table using the fine adjustment kit).

I haven't tried other methods but I'm sure slight variations like taking the rock from the right hand side of the letterbox or using my wives palms instead of her foot wouldn't make too much difference.

Practice Practice Practice & Don't be too fussy, there's wood to cut.http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/smilies/smile.gif
I'm no expert but thats my advice from what I read on here.

I'm off to practice now actually.

derekcohen

11th October 2005, 11:48 PM

Picture 1 - I stuffed up a little here, I was holding the camera(blame the camera eh ). Nearly burred too far one side.

Good grief Jake, you should be able to grind with the camera in one hand, the blade in the other, your youngest under your arm, while munching on a Big Mac.

And you call yourself a woodworker! :D :D

Great pictures.

Picture 2 - Anyway I fixed the problem.

Whew! You had me worried there.

Listen, I think we should make the grinding experiment (suggested earlier on)more interesting. What you say that we find a victim ... uh, subject, ply them with several stubbies, balance them on one leg, and get their impression of the machine in question. I thought a blindfold might be going too far!

More seriously, do you grind both chisel and plane blades. I suspect only the chisels. If you do grind/hone plane blades, do these include smoother blades? (!).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ausworkshop

11th October 2005, 11:49 PM

Watch the Torquita... A friend of mine had one, and after a week used some turps on a rag to clean it, and it disolved the glue bonding the plastic to the metal, and it fell of... tried to glue it back on, but was unsucsessfull... One torquita into the bin in frustration

I didn't buy the double sided one so there is no glue however I notice that it rocks slightly from corner to corner when I put in on a flat bench to use it, so its hardly flat plus its not even cut square at the ends.

Looks like a cheap punched out steel plate from china. There is no brand name on the plate itself just on the Sleeve it came in. They could have quite easily slipped a cheapy into the Torquita plastic sleeve and sold it like that.

I was dissapointed with the lack of helpful advice at the show, now it looks like I've wasted my money on crap after spending about 2hrs trying to decide.

75mm x 200mm
It was reduced from $76 to about $52 and I brought it from the Timbecon Stand. Does anyone have any advice on the quality of these?

rick_rine

11th October 2005, 11:52 PM

dressed my first grinding wheel today thanks to this post . wasn't hard at all and made a really big difference to how quick the plane blades heated up . thanks all . sharpened 5 blades in next to no time .

Great forum

Ausworkshop

12th October 2005, 12:05 AM

Thanks to the Dark Side yet again for an interesting and educational thread.
Cheers Lou!

Once I have set up my new white grinding wheel and Carba Tech mounting guide thingy (need to make small table in between grinder and pedestal to mount it on first) then I will contribute some more helpful info to this thread on my findings.

Hey I might even get off my butt and fire up the digital camera for some wild one handed grinding action!
Plus i'll take some pics of my sharpening techniques http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/smilies/tongue.gif

derekcohen

12th October 2005, 12:07 AM

Does anyone have any advice on the quality of these?

Andrew

I'm afraid that you get what you pay for with diamond stones. Decent ones are not cheap. The most cost-effective DMT is either a double-sided version ($199, at 203mm x 67mm) or two smaller individual stones - coarse and extra fine - at $99 each (at 152mm x 50mm).

Compare this to a King 800 ($39), 1200 ($39) and 6000 ($45) - total cost $123. These waterstones measure around 207mm x 66mm.

All prices from Carba-tec.

The waterstones will outlast the diamond stones by a factor of 25 at least!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ausworkshop

12th October 2005, 01:48 AM

Yea, Thanks for the info, looks like i'll just have to bite the bullet with this and purchase the water stones from Carba Tec when I get the cash.

I would still be interested if anyone has any opinion on these though.
Here is a link to the one that I got from the Timbecon stand at the show.
http://www.timbecon.com.au/products/diamond-stones-500_0.aspx

These ones are reduced to the same price they had at the show.
The picture of the ones here however are in sealed packets plus the quality of the stone looks alot better with rounded corners etc.

The ones at the show had opened packets at the top so I rekon a cheaper stone was slipped into the same orange packet.

I'm just interested to get to the bottom of this now.
I guess I should e-mail them and find out whats going on because now I wish I had just ordered the ones from the website for the same price.

9Fingers

12th October 2005, 04:27 AM

Wow, lot of info to digest. I got addicted to using hand planes about three years ago. The offered several pros for me. I have asthma, so shavings are better than dust. My daily schedule doesn't offer any shop time until about 10pm, so I don't wake the family with screaming power tools. I live in the mid-west region of the U.S. where such companys as the Ohio Tool company made alot of planes for the large furniture industry that existed in the early 1900's. I pickup up these tools of yester year all the time a estate sales in great condition and great prices. Anyway, the topic at hand. As anyway you depends on planes to do work, you have to be able to sharpen them effectively and quickly.

My method is this: I have 4 grits of Norton water stones (250, 1000, 4000, 8000). Pricey but worth it. I use a side clamp honing guide which works very well for me. I have a template with angles that I commonly use so I can set the iron quickly and accurately. I hone the main bevel on the 250, it cuts very fast. Smooth that angle with the 1000 so I can hone a micro bevel quicker with the 4000. The 8000 puts on a mirror finish. I can usually hone an Iron in about 5 minutes the will shave to hair of my arm.

Keep it simple and stick with what works for you.

JDarvall

12th October 2005, 07:41 AM

Good grief Jake, you should be able to grind with the camera in one hand, the blade in the other, your youngest under your arm, while munching on a Big Mac.
And you call yourself a woodworker! :D :D

Listen, I think we should make the grinding experiment (suggested earlier on)more interesting. What you say that we find a victim ... uh, subject, ply them with several stubbies, balance them on one leg, and get their impression of the machine in question. I thought a blindfold might be going too far!

cheeeky :D

More seriously, do you grind both chisel and plane blades. I suspect only the chisels. If you do grind/hone plane blades, do these include smoother blades? (!).
Regards from Perth

Only chisels freehand. Never really tried too hard with plane blades. Spose one can with practise. The wider the blade gets the more of a swinging curve you have to do with your body, which I don't like.
I can't put my finger on exactly why, but I prefer to jig off the waterstones with plane blades. To feather it just right. Sometimes a machine just works too quickly for comfort.
You can buff a wide blade off a bar that resides above the buffing wheel. Which I've done with a plane blade. It worked fine. But, as you know, honing a burred edge is relatively quick on stones as well. So, one sticks with whats most comfortable.

But, for chisels, definetly prefer wheel. Especially like to avoid wearing little chisel grooves in my stones. And also balancing a thin edge can be troublesome off a stone IMO. Seems much easier freehand. (shrug) :)