Spindle gouge sharpening

[Tiger]

Dear all,

I wonder if you can give me advice on how to sharpen spindle gouges freehand. I think I've mastered most of the other tools but the spindle gouge proves elusive. What is happening is that I wind up with a pointy tip rather than a rounded tip. I've tried a few different approaches like raising the gouge after it's rotated on the grinder, also tried fanning the gouge but still end up with this pointy tip. Why is this happening? I've also tried to practise the correct motion with the grinder off. Any advice welcome and can you tell me from your experiences approximately how long it took you to learn how to sharpen spindle gouges freehand. At this stage I'd rather focus on a freehand approach rather than a jig.

[RETIRED]

I did offer to teach you. ;)

[DavidG]

approximately how long it took you to learn how to sharpen spindle gouges freehand About the length of time it takes to grind away one spindle gouge.

[Tiger]

About the length of time it takes to grind away one spindle gouge.

Good, then I reckon I can master it in an hour and a half :D .

[JackoH]

Take up 's offer. He showed me a long time ago. I've not had a problem since. (Beautiful finger nail!)
How important are lessons when you are starting out???

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

A fingernail profile on spindle gouges? :confused:

Am I missing something here??

IMHO a spindle gouge is best sharpened by simply rolling the tool along it's axis, no fanning. A bowl gouge though...

[DavidG]

The plane across the top of the gouge (top of each side) remains horizontal whilst sweeping the handle from left to right, keeping the tip at the desired angle to the wheel..
Oh. I give up. Get a lesson or two. I can not describe it...........

ps
Found this on web Finger nail grind (http://www.hiltonhandcraft.com/\images/Video/Spindle%20Gouge%20Fingernail%20Grind%20on%20Grinder%20Freehand.AVI)
Looks like I do it wrong.

[Auld Bassoon]

Take up 's offer. He showed me a long time ago. I've not had a problem since. (Beautiful finger nail!)
How important are lessons when you are starting out???

Exactly! I have to agree with JackoH! Being shown how is just so much more effective that trying to re-invent extant knowledge - and 's a pretty good teacher, so I've heard...http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

I was getting befuddled by hand-cutting dovetails, a few hours with WB and I was only, well "fuddled" http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

Cheers!

[Mike Jefferys.]

If you want to crack it free-hand IMHO you'll have to put in the time to get the hand-eye skill on board. It's a skill like any other and more demanding than many. Some people have very good hands and a natural aptitude - the rest of us either take the time to learn or use a jig. After 20+ years turning I often now use a jig for gouges because they are now such a mature product. I like a predictable, repeatable, fast outcome with minimal powdered HSS $$ on the floor.
Mike Jefferys

[JackoH]

A fingernail profile on spindle gouges? :confused:

Am I missing something here??

IMHO a spindle gouge is best sharpened by simply rolling the tool along it's axis, no fanning. A bowl gouge though...

I think you are confused!
I roll a bowl gouge along it's axis with a slight movement too the left and right. A spindle gouge though........:rolleyes:

[Cliff Rogers]

A fingernail profile on spindle gouges?
Am I missing something here??...
Depends what you call a spindle gouge.

The wide flatish rolled toolsteel bar with a shallow flute I was taught to call a spindle gouge I have since heard called:-

1. A roughing gouge.

2. A french gouge.

3. A continential gouge.

The narrow one made from a solid bar with a shallow flute ground in it is what I call a 'detail gouge'

Mind you, I dragged out my old 'wide flatish rolled toolsteel bar with a shallow flute' & stuck it in a jig & put a very shallow angle (approx 30°) fingernail on it & had a play with it.
It works like a one sided oval skew that will cut to the left or to the right.
It's handy in a spindle roughing race at a turnout.

[Tiger]

Take up 's offer. He showed me a long time ago. I've not had a problem since. (Beautiful finger nail!)
How important are lessons when you are starting out???

is unavailable for a week or so and I will be going to see him but in the meantime I've got some finials to make......

After another play I am getting a little closer but not quite that rounded tip. I keep getting a triangular profile.

Skewchidamn, I used to use your motion for spindle gouge but that only accentuated the pointed tip. That motion works fine for bowl gouges though.

By the way, anyone have a clear definition of what a detail gouge is compared to a spindle gouge, does it depend on the flute and its length perhaps?

[JackoH]

Spindle gouge/detail gouge. IMHO synonomous.

[Cliff Rogers]

It's worth trotting this link out those of you who have not seen it.

http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml

[Cliff Rogers]

Here's what I call a spindle gouge & a detail gouge.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Ahhh... now I see what was confusing me. :) Bloody terminology. [mutter, mutter, rhubarb]

The profiled gouge on the left is what I've always known as a detail gouge, the one on the right a spindle gouge. FWIW, I do not consider them to be the same although they both may start with the same blank.

I also consider a roughing gouge to be a type of spindle gouge, although usually having a profile of slightly greater circle arc...

Thanks Cliff!

[Cliff Rogers]

....profiled gouge on the left is what I've always known as a detail gouge, the one on the right a spindle gouge....

Umm, which left & which right are you talking about? :confused:

Unless you are talking Stage Left & Stage Right, I have it the other way around.

The one on the left is a HENRY TAYLOR 1 3/4 INCH SHALLOW GOUGE &
the one on the right is a HENRY TAYLOR 1/2 INCH DETAIL GOUGE

The are both listed under HENRY TAYLOR SPINDLE GOUGES

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I used to use your motion for spindle gouge but that only accentuated the pointed tip. That motion works fine for bowl gouges though.

Hmmm... assuming your wheel doesn't need dressing, I really can't see how you'd end up with a pointed tip this way. I also wouldn't sharpen bowl gouges this way, the taller wings make for worse catches when working blind inside a hollow form. IMHO a ladyfinger profile is much safer then!

I guess 'tis one of those cases where "ya really gotta be there."

Unless by pointed tip you mean pointed wings? My "apprentice" has a knack for mis-shaping gouges that way... :(

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Umm, which left & which right are you talking about? :confused:

Unless you are talking Stage Left & Stage Right, I have it the other way around.

Sorry, I'm not making myself clear tonight. It's been on of those days... [sigh]

I understand (or think I do) that you're differentiating between them by the form of steel stock. I, on the other hand, was taught to differentiate by the type of profile and the way they are used.

I was taught that a spindle gouge is sharpened with an almost straight profile when viewed from the top and, as you said, is mainly used like a roughing gouge for quick removal of material. A detail gouge has a more rounded form when viewed from the top, so that when rolled over to cut coves or beads it creates more of a slicing angle as it starts to cut across the end-grain. Acting more like a skew, as it were.

This is regardless of the steel stock used... after all, a skew is still a skew whether it's ovalled, diagonal square or standard rectangular.

Hence my confusion. Which has been cleared up, although has probably confused everybody else in the process. :D As I said: bloody terminology!

[rsser]

One of Raffan's books just talks about shallow and deep fluted gouges ;-}

But see 'Spindle gouges' at http://www.toolpost.co.uk/system/index.html
to add to the confusion.

[JackoH]

Enough Already!
Call the bloody things whatever you like. One of my teachers told me that over time you will develop a liking for about three or four tools which you will use almost exclusively. He also said, "use the chisel that gets the job done."This has proven to be true. Mine are a 30ml roughing gouge, a 25ml skew, and a 15ml detail/spindle gouge(sharpened to the finger nail profile.)
Damnit, I think I've started a whole new problem! :rolleyes:

[Cliff Rogers]

Yeap, Ern, use this link to get to the spindle gouges...

http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Turning_Tools/Spindle_Gouges/spindle_gouges.html

[Mike Jefferys.]

I know a Detail Gouge and a Spindle Gouge as ground tools (not forged) from round section bar and different only in the depth of the grind of the flute. Both have a hemispherically ground flute, the spindle gouge has a deeper cut flute. the detail has a shallow flute which in use allows an extra length riding bevel and is the reason it's a far superior tool IMHO. We market what we believe to be either one of the very few - or even the only version? - of this tool left which was commonplace from Sheffield makers many years ago - made by P&N.

thewoodworks.com.au - search on item T6341

Mike Jefferys

[Cliff Rogers]

I know a Detail Gouge and a Spindle Gouge as ground tools (not forged).....

So what do you call this wide shallow one Mike?

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=14778

[soundman]

Ahhh we get this in the sound industry too.
Most people will swear black & blue that a particular item is a "Vocal Microphone" & the other one is an " instrument microphone", when in truth neither is the whole truth. Technicaly both are just microphones, nothing more nothing less. But people wanted to "simplify" the matter had to give them application specific names.
I've seen richard raffin's video & he uses neither word, not once.

but that doesnt help the problem of the original post.
I can relate to the exact problem, I now the pointy shape you are talking about. I I'm still figuring out how to make my hands do it.

Larger gouges that are made form a portion of a tubular shape don't cause me a problem because the inner curve relates directly to the outer curve.
The gouges milled from a bar is my current learning process.
the problem is the inner curve ( the edge making curve) is not concentric with the outer profile.

I've considered this.
grab a good long lump of dowel of a decent size ( so I can see what I'm doing) rout a similar profile down the dowel as the gouge and practise with that on the disk sander.

I've tried pushing the tool up the wheel as it rolls over, not happy with that.
I'm finding best sucess rolling & fanning. I think the key is visualising your thumb placed in the groove of the gouge as the rolling point.

I'm sure it will be as easy as sharpening drills once the moves are learned.

cheers

[Tiger]

but that doesnt help the problem of the original post.
I can relate to the exact problem, I now the pointy shape you are talking about. I I'm still figuring out how to make my hands do it.




Spot on, might try your idea with the dowel. has mentioned a piece of pipe as practice too, that could be worth a try.

[gatiep]

Cliff
In the industry the one on the left is called a Roughing Gouge. The one on the right is a shallow fluted gouge or spindle gouge. A similarly shallow fluted gouge with a thicker base ( part below the flute ) is a detail gouge. ( usually only 6, 8 and max 10 mm ). Then the deepfluted gouge is the bowl gouge.

There is a very confusing term being battered around by 'someone in the know' which he calls a combination fluted gouge.....anyway something to that effect. When I heard that term I went :confused: :eek: :confused: and I remember 's response to a question on that name many moons ago on the board as :confused: . I have seen it being used by the author of some books and videos and am still :confused: by it. Maybe has found out what is being called a combination gouge. However I am not saying that a spindle gouge cannot be used on bowls, ie hollowing endgrain, but its name is still a spindle gouge which really describes its shape.

You'll find that there are many names floating around mostly invented by manufacturers to sell more product by calling a mule a modified donkey............there is always some guy that will fall for the fancy named tool, or suposedly 'very better performing' grind combination and put hard earned stuff in the manufacturers pocket.

[Jim Carroll]

One reason for getting a pointy end on a spindle gouge is becauase you may be starting with the flute pointing straight up ie 12 o clock and just rolling the tool one way or the other .
To eliminate this have the flutes at either 10 o clock or 2 o clock and roll the tool the opposit way.
Start at 2 o clock and roll to 9 o clock or start at 10 o clock and roll to 3 o clock. This should produce a more rounded end and eliminate the point end you are getting.
It may take a couple of grinds to get it back to a normal shape.
Remember you are only trying to sharpen the tool so do not be heavy handed and grind away too much.