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Grumpy John
12th December 2005, 04:56 PM
I've been reading "Illustrated Woodturning Techniques" by John Hunnex and he mentions a method of "darkening" certain timbers (cedar, oak, walnut and elm) by using a solution of iron filings and vinegar. However he doesn't go into details as to the strength of the solution, or whether you paint the solution on or immerse the item into the solution. Has anyone done this and if so can you let us in on the secrets.

arose62
12th December 2005, 05:03 PM
Haven't used this myself, but have read several associated warnings about the gas pressure generated as the chemical reaction proceeds.

Don't use a tight-fitting lid on the container!!

Cheers,
Andrew

ED T
12th December 2005, 05:12 PM
Just try it out. Make sure there is an excess of filings so you eat up the acetic acid. And give it time to react. It will be quite slow.

You end up with Ferrous/Ferric Acetate, an innocuous salt which is quite harmless in all but massive quantities.

Ed T

Grumpy John
12th December 2005, 05:14 PM
Just try it out. Make sure there is an excess of filings so you eat up the acetic acid. And give it time to react. It will be quite slow.

You end up with Ferrous/Ferric Acetate, an innocuous salt which is quite harmless in all but massive quantities.

Ed T

OK do you brush the mixture onto the wood or do yuo soak the wood in the mixture?

Termite
12th December 2005, 05:15 PM
From memory Niel has a recipe for something like this in the "Book", don't have it near at the moment its down the workshop.

jacko
12th December 2005, 05:56 PM
I used steel wool as it is rather fine and goes into solution fairly (Days) quickly. Immerse for several days 9perhaps two weeks for a good faux ebony finish) . Timbers with a high tannin content appaerntly go well. My experiments
Worst; vic Ash
then walnut
Tassie Myrtle
tassie blackwood
Jarrah
easily best Woolybut ( to a depth of around 0.5 mm in five days)
As the depth is rather small, pre-finish wherever possible.
However to be fair, the woolybur was air dried so this may have a bearing
all the above subject to experimental error and small samples without good controls (but they were all done together for the same time, so some discipline)
Jacko

Termite
12th December 2005, 07:22 PM
I do believe it works best on Oak.

echnidna
12th December 2005, 07:28 PM
It only works on tannin rich timber.

dadpad
13th December 2005, 11:26 PM
I used steel wool as it is rather fine and goes into solution fairly (Days) quickly. Immerse for several days 9perhaps two weeks for a good faux ebony finish) . Timbers with a high tannin content appaerntly go well. My experiments
Worst; vic Ash
then walnut
Tassie Myrtle
tassie blackwood
Jarrah
easily best Woolybut ( to a depth of around 0.5 mm in five days)
Jacko
Woolybutt is alpine or mountain ash. Most of the timber traded as VIC ASH is woolybut. Vic ash is a trade name for a range of species which can inlude alpine ash (E delegatensis), mountain ash E.regnans and messmate E.obliqua (I have an idea narrow leaf peppermint and blue gum can also be inluded under the trade name VIC ASH but not sure about that) so your experiment whilst still valid do not indicate a better result on a particular type/species of wood.
If the tannin theory hold up it would be interesting to try this process on Black wattle (A. mearnsii), which was a major source of tannins for early Australian tanning industry and is grown in plantations in South Africa today for this pupose.

wombat47
14th December 2005, 06:15 AM
If the tannin theory hold up it would be interesting to try this process on Black wattle (A. mearnsii), which was a major source of tannins for early Australian tanning industry and is grown in plantations in South Africa today for this pupose.

Have tanned a few skins in my time using bark from black wattle. Wonder if the wood is as tannin rich as the bark.

rsser
14th December 2005, 06:55 AM
If you search the site you'll find posts about other ways of darkening or ebonising timber too.

zenwood
14th December 2005, 07:28 AM
Haven't tried the iron filings recipe, but this is specifically claimed to be an ebonizing product (http://www.liberon.com.au/catalog/index.php?cPath=1_8_62&sort=3a) (completely obscures the grain).[/URL]

They also [URL="http://www.liberon.com.au/catalog/index.php?cPath=1_7_53&sort=3a"]carry Van Dyck crystals (http://www.liberon.com.au/catalog/index.php?cPath=1_8_62&sort=3a), which "Dissolve in hot water to achieve a brown colour, intensity of which is controlled by the strength of dilution. The traditional method of colouring oak and walnut."

I haven't tried either product, but what I have tried is Feast Watson black prooftint, which is more expensive than the liberon black polish, and lets some of the grain still show through.


Could also do a search:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/search.php?searchid=542809

dadpad
14th December 2005, 09:07 AM
Have tanned a few skins in my time using bark from black wattle. Wonder if the wood is as tannin rich as the bark.

It is my understanding that the wood does not have as much tannin as the bark but is still higher than most woods. I have 700 black wattles in a plantation that will need to be thinned shortly none of the wood will be acceptable for woodwork (too knotty, not enough clearwood yet) however you could try the process on a piece if you are able to pick up from NE Victoria. pm me if interested.

rhook
14th December 2005, 12:09 PM
Have tanned a few skins in my time ...

This technique of using iron filings or steel wool in weak acid as a dye is very commonly known by people who work with leather for medieval reproduction purposes - it is a very, very, very old technique for dying leather. Apparently it will dye your skin very well as well...

dadpad
14th December 2005, 06:20 PM
Probably way off topic but here is some black wattle i ripped down today

Auld Bassoon
14th December 2005, 07:47 PM
This technique of using iron filings or steel wool in weak acid as a dye is very commonly known by people who work with leather for medieval reproduction purposes - it is a very, very, very old technique for dying leather. Apparently it will dye your skin very well as well...

I believe that urea (urine, essentially) was also used, with oak bark, for tanning leather and such.

Apparently the smell was quite unique....:eek:

Cheers!

Sprog
15th December 2005, 03:17 PM
I've been reading "Illustrated Woodturning Techniques" by John Hunnex and he mentions a method of "darkening" certain timbers (cedar, oak, walnut and elm) by using a solution of iron filings and vinegar. However he doesn't go into details as to the strength of the solution, or whether you paint the solution on or immerse the item into the solution. Has anyone done this and if so can you let us in on the secrets.

Some info here on Ebonizing and Bleaching Timber

Fantastic Woodworking intarsia site (http://www.fantasticwoodworking.com/information.php?info_id=4)

Tony Morton
15th December 2005, 09:44 PM
Hi John

I've used the vinigar and steelfilings /wool on camphor laurel and quite a few burls of different species I find it very unforgiving dont spill it or go over the lines as it is permenant. Amonia as a gas works well on english oak all the oak timbersin old stock barns were very black ebonised from the gas coming of the urine in the barns.
Cheers Tony

jacko
18th December 2005, 08:35 AM
[QUOTE=dadpad]Woolybutt is alpine or mountain ash. Most of the timber traded as VIC ASH is woolybut. Vic ash is a trade name for a range of species which can inlude alpine ash (E delegatensis), mountain ash E.regnans and messmate E.obliqua (I have an idea narrow leaf peppermint and blue gum can also be inluded under the trade name VIC ASH but not sure about that) so your experiment whilst still valid do not indicate a better result on a particular type/species of wood.
Sorry to disagree but the timber known as Woolybutt, grown in SE NSW is reported to be E. Miniata. The timber is nothing remotely like Vic Ash, it is denser than Jarrah, similar in colour deeper red, more brown tints, totally different grain structure. Hence my results still stand. VA was the worst by an order of magnitude.
jacko

dadpad
19th December 2005, 11:57 AM
[quote=dadpad]Woolybutt is alpine or mountain ash. Most of the timber traded as VIC ASH is woolybut. Vic ash is a trade name for a range of species which can inlude alpine ash (E delegatensis), mountain ash E.regnans and messmate E.obliqua (I have an idea narrow leaf peppermint and blue gum can also be inluded under the trade name VIC ASH but not sure about that) so your experiment whilst still valid do not indicate a better result on a particular type/species of wood.
Sorry to disagree but the timber known as Woolybutt, grown in SE NSW is reported to be E. Miniata. The timber is nothing remotely like Vic Ash, it is denser than Jarrah, similar in colour deeper red, more brown tints, totally different grain structure. Hence my results still stand. VA was the worst by an order of magnitude.
jacko

Hence the need to be clear about what type of timber we are talking about. colloquial names can be very misleading. so too can botanic names if you want to go that far.

E longifolia around Eden is quoted in "Costermans" "Trees and Shrubs of South Eastern Australia, " as having the local name woolybutt. E. miniata doesnt get a mention at all as far as i can see, but botanic names change all the time so....... (Now i'm curiouse to learn what tree you are talking about.)

Same source, E. delegatensis, common name Alpine ash, local name woolybutt (and trade name vic ash, also trade name Tas oak)......

So given further information yes your experiment does count but i hope you can see where i was coming from.