Getting nasty catches on a bowl [Archive]

CameronPotter

10th January 2006, 10:19 PM

Hi all,

I am FAR from an experienced wood turner, but I have done a few spindles and I thought that I had pretty much got it figured out.

I thought that I would try a bowl...

Hmmm...

Now, first of all, I don't have a roughing gouge (need to buy one), but I have been doing most of my roughing with my skew chisel. I tried that on the bowl (and failed).

I then cut the bowl round on my bandsaw and tried again with my skew chisel - I keep on getting nasty catches diggin attractive looking Nike "Swooshes" into the wood - unfortunately, that is not what I want. Can someone tell me if there is something different about bowl turning that I should know (ie at a larger diameter piece you have to do XXXX).

Interestingly enough, I kind of managed to smooth it down nicely with my parting tool. This was only a rough anyway for drying, so I hollowed it out and I found that nice and easy (using a scraper).

Anyway any hints would be well appreciated!

Cheers

Cam

John Saxton

10th January 2006, 11:02 PM

CAMERON, I suggest that you get yourself some lessons,I don't mean that lightly but as a favour to yourself get involved either with a woodturning club...there's bound to be be one somewhere or get yourself off to TAFE to pick up some pointers.

There are also plenty of accomplished woodturners around that are only willing to give lesson merely from the point of stopping someone from causing themselves grief.

Also if you've a library real handy grab yourself some books/video's and have a look at what you're doing if you want to do it all on your own.

When I started out I went first to a woodturning club to see if I would go on and was lucky to find a bunch of folk willing to help me out not only with tecniques but all manner of advice on tooling costing etc which I will forever be grateful for.

HOPE you are fortunate in finding the love of the craft as I have done.

Cheers:)

Skew ChiDAMN!!

10th January 2006, 11:41 PM

Because of the way they're used, a scraper is the only "basic" tool that's immune to dig-in type catches. Unless you're misusing it, of course. They're the only tool that's held pointing downhill with the tip lower than the end of the handle, so any catch throws it "away" from the wood instead of digging in. Oddly enough, the parting tool isn't a scraper and should not be used like a scraper when parting... but they do work damned well as a scraper in other situations.

Many hobbyist turners don't progress beyond using scrapers, as they can cut almost any form that any other tool can do. They often won't leave as clean a cut off the tool nor cut as quickly as other more specialised gouges but the 80-grit gouge works miracles. :D There are turners who'll poo-poo the use of scrapers but that's just tool snobbery. Scrapers have a definite place in any turners toolkit and really are the best tools to start learning with.

Once you start encountering the scrapers shortcomings' (ie. any flaws really are the tools' fault and not just your technique. ;) ) you'll probably have enough practice with other things (selecting the wood, correctly mounting & balancing the blank, sharpening your tools, etc) that you can concentrate more on improving your technique with other tools. It's hard to get better if you're screwing up something basic such as selecting correct RPM, bad mounting of the blank, etc, etc.

ALL other cutting tools are chisels and are used as such, so are prone to dig in should they catch. Of them all, I believe the skew chisel has the least "error of margin" between using them safely and disaster and very rightly deserves the honour of being considered "the most difficult tool to master." It's also, IMHO, the most dangerous. I rarely use one for final finishes on "important jobs" even though they're perfect for it. One catch and it's back to the cutting board.

If I were you, I'd put it aside temporarily and settle on your detail and bowl gouges. Detail gouges & scrapers on the outside of the bowl, bowl gouges and scrapers inside. Leave the skew until you're doing some more spindle turning or you have someone on hand to show you the finer points.

CameronPotter

11th January 2006, 09:50 AM

Thanks for the replies, but they don't really answer my question sorry.

As for joining a club, it was the first thing I tried to do, but I lead a very busy life and my nights and weekends are rarely free (as it happened the nights the club met didn't coincide with the nights I was free).

Same deal with Adult Ed.

Same deal with TAFE.

I did get out about 3 DVDs on turning and I have read more books than I care to mention. My spindle technique seems fine, but when I progress to a bowl it seems to have problems.

With regards to scrapers, I only used it for hollowing, not on the outside.

As for selecting wood - well, maybe I got that wrong, this is the first piece of leatherwood I have worked with. Up until now it was either black wattle or tas oak.

As for mounting and balancing the blank, I don't think that I have a problem there.

As for sharpening, I made myself a little jig for my belt sander and I find sharpening really very easy (I come from the background of having made a few knives before). The chisels are nice and sharp as if I manually hand turn the lathe I get nice long shavings.

As for the parting tool, I wasn't using that as a scraper, I was using it properly and it worked a treat.

Also, as I have said, I have got to the stage where I can do spindle turning for hours without any kind of catch, but I can't seem to even start with the bowl. As soon as I introduce anything more than a point to the work - BANG.

I thought about it last night and I suspect that it might have something to do the height of the tool rest...

Hmmm.

Anyway, thanks again for the replies.

Cam

Andraax

11th January 2006, 11:13 AM

I thought about it last night and I suspect that it might have something to do the height of the tool rest...

Hmmm.

Anyway, thanks again for the replies.

Cam

Hmmm possibly, I have spent many hours getting the tool rest just right - now only takes a little while.

One day I was doing a very special piece and spent about an hour ensuring I got it just right. Nathan - my then 4yo (now 5) was 'helping me' and I went to the toilet and my son proudly came in saying he had fixxed the tool... Any woody with kids cringe at these statements - he not only loosened my tool rest which was only finger tight but also as many other bolts that he could find on the lathe!

CameronPotter

11th January 2006, 11:20 AM

Thanks Andraax,

I actually wasn't sure how important the tool rest height was exactly. You see the pros just seem to stick to whatever height, but I suppose that they are good enough to adjust (and probably get it right anyway).

As for "tool adjustment", it must be very handy having someone there to help you out! :p

bobsreturn2003

11th January 2006, 12:39 PM

hi cameron to cut bowls correctly you need a bowlgouge this is a deep section gouge. either 3/8'" or 1/2"work well . the skewchisel is really only designed for spindle work , several books videos ,available .much cheaper than plastic surgery rebuilding face after a good catch . best wishes bob

CameronPotter

11th January 2006, 01:28 PM

PAH1

11th January 2006, 03:18 PM

Thanks Bob.

I have a Triton Respirator (so I am kind of in armour) - well at least my face is...

I have checked out as many books and DVDs as I could find, but the best ones seem to be by Richard Raffan and than man is mad for a skew chisel...

I may well need a few more gouges.

Hi

Richard is mad about the skew chisel but only for between centers work. For bowl work he uses a combination of both shallow ie spindle and "bowl" gouges. I use bowl gouges for the outside and most of the hollowing and use a bowl scraper for the bottom of the bowl when appropriate. The techniques are very different for centre work and bowl, a shallow gouge can catch really easily if it is rolled to take a heavy cut on the inside of a bowl or you attempt a back cut.

rond

11th January 2006, 04:29 PM

;) :o :mad:

I am trying to come to terms as well with bowl turning for the same reasons. I am privilaged to be a member of the local Woodies Group and am learning to use a scraper with some success.
Using a Bowl gouge changing from a natural 'Leftie' [ for over 60 years]
is a lesson to be learned. Talk about 'dig ins' I am an expert
But once the Bug bites anything is possible.

:) You learn something new every day

hughie

11th January 2006, 05:07 PM

Cameron,
Seeing that you have a busy life, try this link for a free ebook on wood turning. It will help in steering you in the right direction

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/15460

also:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/3jdw8/
http://www.laymar-crafts.co.uk/linkt.htm this last site has a lot of hints and tips, this should get you started with some flair.
hughie

Baz

11th January 2006, 07:22 PM

Cameron, if you have watched 3 dvd's and read so many books where in the hell did you get the idea that a roughing gouge and a skew chisel were used for bowl turning? Sorry if that seems a bit strong but I am self taught and nothing I read or watched mentioned used a skew or roughing gouge for bowls. I do use a skew for bowls but only for the recess for chuck jaws. For the outside of a bowl try a 12 or 16mm spindle gouge and a shear scraper, for the inside a 12 or 16mm bowl gouge and a round nose scraper.
Cheers
Barry

Captain Chaos

11th January 2006, 09:55 PM

G'day Cameron,
I've got to agree with Baz in regards to the roughing gouge & skew chisel.
They are used for spindle work, the only exception being as Baz stated - using the skew as a scraper for cutting the recess for the chuck jaws.
When turning the outside of a bowl, use a bowl gouge, set the tool post just below centre height & position the gouge to cut at centre height & "let the bevel rub" as you cut. This tends to support the cutting edge of the gouge as you cut - well, thats the theory. Start your cut near the centre of your bowl blank & move the gouge outwards & forwards towards the headstock as Richard Raffan recommends in his books & demos. Don't force the tool, let it cut at its own speed. Give it a go - the more you do, the better you'll get.;)
I would approach a local woodturnig club & enquire if there is a member that would be prepared to come to your workshop to give you a demonstration on bowl turning techniques at a time to suit you. Put on a barbie & some liquid refreshments after to thank the person for his / her time & efforts.
I hope that this of some help Cameron.
Regards,
Barry. ( the other Baz? )

scooter

11th January 2006, 11:38 PM

Cameron, I know jack about turning, but the latest Aust Woodworker (has a professional rocking horse maker on the cover) has an article on bowl work that may be worth a look.

Cheers.............Sean

Cliff Rogers

11th January 2006, 11:57 PM

I'm with Baz.

If you can't get it from Videos & books, you are going to have to find time to get even a short lesson from some body.

I made 2 things on a lathe at high school & then, 7 years later, I bought a lathe & all the books about it.
Jeeze I made a mess.... :p I stopped using it. :(
About 12 years later I went & got some lessons at a TAFE night course.
It was only a couple of hours a night, one night a week for 6 weeks but it was realy worth it. I have been a hobby turner for 15 years now, I sell some of my stuff at markets & I even get the odd commision job. :o

Now all I need is time to practice. :rolleyes:

CameronPotter

12th January 2006, 09:30 AM

Thanks for your replies.

I understand where you are coming from Baz, and don't mind the strong words, but the point that I didn't get the impression that the skew chisel and roughing gouge were used for bowl turning, but, I also didn't get the impression that they weren't.

The problem is that the DVDs (and books) show the use of various chisels between centres which all seems well and dandy, then they start talking about bowls - and seem to go straight to hollowing them out... ie the hollowing is portrayed as the hard bit and the DVD (or book) just glosses over the work on the outside of the bowl.

For me (and incidentally I wasn't silly enough to try to use a skew chisel or a roughing gouge on the inside of the bowl) the hollowing seemed easy. I used a combination of a small deep fluted gouge and a scraper. I got what I consider to be pretty good results.

Finally, regarding getting some tuition, I have also asked the local wood guild (well one of the members at a show) about getting some private help and he gave me a funny look and went on to explain about when the courses were on. When I told him that I was busy at those times and asked again whether there was any private tutor, he was extremely non-commital, so I didn't push it.

Anyway, thanks for the help and thanks for the links and I think that I am now sorted out... I don't have the right tools (yet) for bowl turning. I will get myself a spindle gouge or two...

Cheers

Cam

Baz

12th January 2006, 04:21 PM

Hi Cameron, if you haven't got a copy of Richard Raffan's Turned Bowl Design book your local liberary should have one. I think this book would be a big help to you, it was the first turning book I bought.
Cheers
Barry

CameronPotter

12th January 2006, 04:28 PM

Thanks Baz,

I have a later book of his (actually it only recently came out) and it seemed to have everything in it, but apparently not. I will look up this bowl turning book and see if it can sort me out.

Also, can I ask for a list of which gouges/chisels I might need?

I got this lather second hand and got all the tools with it, but it seems that the guy mainly did between centres work and small boxes. He gave (sold) me a HEAP of scrapers, two skews (both about 1 inch, but one has a curved grind).

It also had a roughing gouge which is below usable size (ground away to being about an inch long).

It also had one shallow gouge (I would guess it would be half an inch wide from memory) and one small (6mm?) gouge that is quite deep.

There are probably others, but I can't remember them for now.

Basically, my guess is that I need to get:

1. Roughing gouge (not for bowl work though).
2. Half inch bowl gouge

Do I need much more than that?

Cheers

Cam

sbyrne

12th January 2006, 07:46 PM

You sound like me a couple of weeks ago.:D I tried my first piece with the grain perpendicular to the axis of the lathe and because you are cutting against the grain half the time I could not rough down the outside at all. I have to agree that the books do not explain how to do this at all.

My solution was to cut in from the front of the piece with a scaper the same way you hollow out. This is probably not the proper way but it worked for me.:o

I also found that I could use almost any tool as a scraper with various amounts of sucess. The skew chisel held upside down was fairly useful.

RETIRED

12th January 2006, 08:38 PM

Read this thread particularly what I posted as a basic set.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=254&highlight=Tools

Cliff Rogers

12th January 2006, 09:31 PM

Yeap, what says.

If you feel the need to buy more tools, just buy more of your favourite ones, the ones you use all the time, that way you don't have to stop turning as often, just grab the next scarpe one of the rack & keep going. :D

Then do your grinding in bulk.

I have 3 bowl gouges the same size & I think the next tool I'll buy is another one. ;)

CameronPotter

13th January 2006, 09:19 AM

Thanks again fellas.

I actually re-read a part of the introduction of the latest Raffan book last night and I found the bit that confused me.

You see, I am doing an end grain bowl. He specifically states that when doing end grain, you use the same tools as you would for between centres. Furthermore, I was actually roughing this down between centres - but I now understand that this was worded in a way that an experienced turner might understand, but not a novice.

Anyway, thanks again (and thanks for posting the link - I couldn't find it myself).

One final (ish) question...

I assume that decent tools make a big difference? I mean I see things on eBay saying HSS, but I assume that the more expensive tools are more expensive for a very good reason?

Cheers

Cam

RETIRED

13th January 2006, 10:16 AM

CameronPotter

13th January 2006, 10:43 AM

I thought as much... Damn! :p

Anyway, I have done the right thing and looked at suppliers that support this website (afterall it is only fair to pay for it somehow - if only by supporting sponsors).

I have noticed that UBeaut doesn't have tools, but many of the advertised links do...

Wood-Eze has an economy set for $99.
Economy HSS 6 piece Turning Chisel Set Contains:

10mm spindle gouge;
13mm bowl gouge;
22mm roughing gouge;
18mm round nose scraper;
20mm diamond parting tool;
25mm oval skew.This sounds like an OK set (as I could make use of everything (except the parting tool which would be surplus).

This set also turns up in a few other places online too...

The names I have come across though seem to be Hamlet, Sherwood, P&N (make bloody good drill bits), Crown and Robert Sorby.

I also found this on the Timbecon site for $115
The Sherwood set includes:

10mm Spindle gouge
13mm Bowl gouge
22mm Roughing gouge
19mm Round nose scraper
5 x 20mm Diamond parting tool
25mm Oval skewIt looks very similar, only this time it has a name attached to it (and comes in a wooden case instead of plastic - not that that makes any real difference).

Would I be better off staying away from these sets and simply going for 2 good P&N gouges instead of the set of 6 (about the same price)?

Cheers

Cam

Cliff Rogers

13th January 2006, 11:09 AM

...Would I be better off staying away from these sets and simply going for 2 good P&N gouges instead of the set of 6 (about the same price)?...

or Hamlet, Robert Sorby, Henry Taylor, or Crown.

CameronPotter

13th January 2006, 11:25 AM

Right.

Now, the next question - OK so I was lying when I said that this would be the last!:rolleyes:

What is the difference between a super gouge (P&N) and a bowl gouge? And what is the difference between a "master flute" (Crown) and normal bowl gouges?

While I am at it, I know that bowl gouges are deep fluted and spindle gouges are shallow fluted, but what exactly is a "detail" gouge? What what I can tell, it is a spindle gouge with more stock under the flute, but then why would you use a spindle gouge when you could use a (stronger) detail gouge?

Cheers

Cam

macca2

13th January 2006, 11:55 AM

I started out with the set of 6, and although they don't work as well as the brand names that I now have, they were invaluable while learning to correctly sharpen the various tools.
I ground away heaps of the cheaper steel and I consider it money well spent on a very valuable learning curve.
I can now sharpen my good tools without loosing all that precious steel.

Macca

CameronPotter

13th January 2006, 12:00 PM

Thanks for the advice Macca, but I am pretty confident on getting the grinds right. I am set up for knife making, and while chisel grinding is significantly different, the tools I have make it reasonably easy.

I have ground a few of the old ones I got with the lathe and haven't had a problem at all (yet).;)

Cam

Cliff Rogers

13th January 2006, 01:26 PM

....What is the difference ...

Several posts about this & similar below....

The 'Super' or 'Master' are all copies of the Henry Taylor 'Super Flute' desinged by Mr. Childs (& I can't remember which Mr. Childs:rolleyes: )

The shape of the flute & the thickness of the walls is a bit different to the other bowl gouges.

I love them, other don't.

Read these links for past discussions on gouges.
There are other as well.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=17575

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=8489

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=22911

CameronPotter

13th January 2006, 02:15 PM

Thanks again Cliff,

Ever useful supplier of past threads.

I think I am all sorted out now.

I don't think that I will bother with the extra expense of "super flute" or anything of the type...

I will just get a normal old bowl gouge. Now, to decide between the brands (and shops).

Cheers

Cam

JackoH

13th January 2006, 05:09 PM

Enlarge and print out Cliffs posts, particularly the one about his first experiences with the craft of woodturning. Read every day until you get the idea that maybe a few lessons may help. Woodturning ain't easy and has to be learnt from some source or other. (Preferably a Good Teacher)Please do not take this personally. It is meant as constructive advice for all you aspiring pen makers, bowl turners, treen makers, etc.

CameronPotter

13th January 2006, 06:04 PM

No problem, I don't take it personally. I would probably say similar things to others, but I also understand that it isn't always easy to find a suitable time for both me and the tutor...

I have talked to a good turner (who seemed very apt at explaining things to novices) when I was just starting to get an interest in wood turning. I would like to have a lesson or two with him, but it isn't going to happen any time soon I am afraid.

As for previous experiences, I guess I am used to the learn it as you go along method as I did with knife making and bow making. I have had professionals in both fields appreciate my work in those areas (but it is bloody hard (or impossible) to find a tutor on those things, so you tend to learn it from books where possible.

That being said, I may not be the most efficient maker of either (ie the outcomes take me AGES), but I enjoy it and I can do it at a time that suits me.

Oh, also, bow making and knife making are very finicky and if you make a mistake, it isn't a matter of the form looking wrong, it is a matter of a catastrophic failure in bow making or a knife that won't cut in knife making... So I am used to failures too! :o

So basically, thanks for the advice, I will continue to live in hope that I can find a wood turner who does not run classes on nights that I am busy, but in the mean time, I will play around and be careful myself (using books, DVDs and you good people to steer me on the right path).

Cam

Baz

13th January 2006, 08:03 PM

Cameron, if you are interested in some free lessons I am more than happy to give you some provided you pay my return airfare to Hobart.:D :D :D
Cheers
Barry

CameronPotter

16th January 2006, 08:30 AM

Thanks for the offer Barry! :eek:

But sadly, I might decline that... :rolleyes:

I am actually thinking that I might simply call up wood turners in the yellow pages and ask if they would give me a lesson or two to straighten things out.

Cheers

Cam

Wooden Goodies

21st January 2006, 10:12 PM

:) Hello Cam,
I am no where near a pro, probably closer to intermediate turner I am self taught and it took me a while to get things right I am still learning. the best advice I have to offer is " the proper tool for the proper job" read, read, read!! Lesson would be great but I know how busy schedules are! Good luck and may the shavings fly away from your face!:p Turning is a test of patience!!!!! Don't rush things.
Dana