Slow Setting Glue

[Zoot]

I previously posted this to the General Woodworking forum, but repeat it here because it is of particular interest to those of us who produce intricate assemblies, where normal PVA glues are too quick drying. I am not suggesting that other woodworkers don't produce intricate things!!

I have been looking for a slow setting PVA Glue for gluing up dovetail boxes and other small joinery where normal PVA is too quick off the mark. I know there is an AV140 PVA glue with a setting time of about 20 minutes ... it is available from Laminex Industries, but only in 5 litre bottles.

I purchased a small bottle of "Multihesive" made by Prep Products at Revesby (Sydney suburb for interstaters!). It is made from Styrene Acrylate, dries clear, sticks to almost anything including timber, metal, glass, leather etc and what suits me is that it has about 30 to 90 minutes setting time ... plenty of time to assemble.

The manufacturers claim that this glue supercedes PVA! Has anyone had any longer term experience with this glue?

Cheers,
Zoot

[Zoot]

A few have sent me private messages about this slow setting glue, so rather than reply individually, I have included the information here, for all to see.

The bottle says ... "Multihesive ... glues almost anything to anything ... ideal for woodworking, supercedes PVA, non-toxic, dries clear".

In the directions on the back it says ... Timber to timber sets in 30 to 90 minutes ... ceramic or glass to porus surfaces sets in 2 to 5 hours. In most cases full strength may be achieved in 48 hours.

The bottle also says ... May be used interior or exterior and because of its styrene base it is water resistant ??? whatever that means!!

Their web site is ... www.prepproducts.com.au

Cheers,
Zoot Esq.

[DPB]

Their web site is ... www.prepproducts.com.au (http://www.prepproducts.com.au)

Cheers,
Zoot Esq.

:D :D Great website, Zoot!:D :D

Why do you want a slow setting PVA glue rather than some of the slow setting 2-part epoxy glues that are much more readily available?

[Zoot]

:D :D Great website, Zoot!:D :D

Why do you want a slow setting PVA glue rather than some of the slow setting 2-part epoxy glues that are much more readily available?
I really did not mind what sort of glue, just that I wanted more working time than normal PVA. I was going to track down AV140 which is a slow setting PVA, but this Multihesive that I came across by chance is just great for my purposes. When gluing up my dovetail boxes, the glue is painted on most surfaces with a tiny art paint brush and as Multihesive is water soluble, the brush can be washed out for future use. A 2 pack epoxy, apart from having to mix it up, would not be as easy to paint into the small dovetails and the paint brush would be cactus after one use (I think!).

Cheers,
Zoot Esq.

[wachenga]

Hi there,

In the past I've used cascamite for both dovetails (drawers) and boxes (mitred). It's pretty easy to mix up and will give you much more working time than pva.

Cheers

Liam

[growl]

Hi DBP,

You mention using epoxy. Do you use this for all your boxes? If so, what brand and where do you get it from?

I saw some of your other boxes and they all look great.

I use yellow glue (well prepared and work quickly) and after a few months the glue expands and I am left with a line at all the joints that you can feel as you run your hand over them. I think it is the glue reacting with either the finish or moisture in the air. Any thoughts on this one?

Regards

Growl

[MajorPanic]

Try Garrett Wade (http://www.garrettwade.com),

I've got just a little of their slo-set glue left now. I musta used about 5 liters of the stuff when I was doing a commission job for wine boxes & a few other projects. ;) http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif

Look under > Woodworking Products > Clamps, Glue & Vices :cool:

[Lignum]

Hi DBP,

I use yellow glue (well prepared and work quickly) and after a few months the glue expands and I am left with a line at all the joints that you can feel as you run your hand over them. I think it is the glue reacting with either the finish or moisture in the air. Any thoughts on this one?

Regards

Growl

Growl, one of the troubles with PVA is, being water based the join slightly swells when you glue it up, and most people are to impatient to get stuck into their project, so soon as the clamps come off they start sanding. Thing is, the swelling even though its only slight gets sanded flush. In time the timber ballances back and their is a hollow or slight gap. Its a very common problem especially when people use dowels on a panel. You can see the dowel hollows after a while. If you can plan your job so you can allow 24hours before you sand PVA glued joins. That might not be the cause of your problem, but its just a thought:)

[DPB]

Hi DBP,

You mention using epoxy. Do you use this for all your boxes? If so, what brand and where do you get it from? Growl

Sorry, I missed this one.

No, I have never used epoxy glue for my boxes (other than to secure my makers mark and lid stays, ie metal to timber).

I have used Garret Wade's "World's Best Glue", it's a great glue but it is hard to get in Melbourne. Recently, I used Bond-Tite, or is it Tite-Bond III. It does set up rather fast, but I don't find it a problem.

I don't think it matters much what glue you use with dovetail joints. After all, the strength of the joint comes from the mechanical make-up of the joint. The glue just keeps it together.

It's not even necessary to clamp this joint if the dovetails are cut accurately. And, it you do use clamps they need to be applied adjacent to the joint not on it, because if the clamp is on the joint, it cannot compress the pieces of timber together. The nature of the joint keeps the clamp from moving past the mating piece. (This is true for box joints as well.)

However, if you clamp on the surface immediately adjacent to the joint, you run the risk of deforming the joint if too much pressure is applied.

I have made a couple of boxes where the sides are attached with mitre joints, and I can see some advantages in using a slow setting glue on these.

Lately, I have been rabbetting the base of my boxes to accept the bottom panel. When I glue up a box with mitred corners, I insert the base panel into the rabbet; no glue at this stage. This serves to keep the box square and stops to sides from creeping out of alignment. I avoid applying too much clamp pressure to the box, because it tends to squeeze the glue out of the joint. I wait well beyond the set-up time then cut kerf slots across the corners, into which I insert keys of contrasting timber.

This is a commonly used technique on small mitred boxes that results in a fairly strong joint. Remember, strength in small boxes is really not the issue. More importantly, is the need to create a flush eye-appealing fit.

[growl]

Thanks Lignum and DPB,

I had thought of that (wood shinkage) but I do wait about a week before sanding for this very reason. The glue seems to expand out of the joint so you have a very small bead along the glue line in my dovetailed boxes. You can not see the bead but you can feel it. Maybe my eyes are shot.

I'll try some of this other glue people are mentioning and see how I go.

Thanks

Growl