How finely do you sand? [Archive]

Auld Bassoon

5th February 2006, 10:41 PM

What's the finest grade of abrasive you use when sanding, before you apply any finish? do you sand by hand, ROS or some other means? Tell us what & why.
G'day mate!

I always sand to at least 800 grit, unless it's a "presenting" face, then I'll take it to at least 1200, and possible as high as 2500 if it's a "fine" piece.

As Neil says, the finish you get is only as good as the preparation under it.

So, up to 400 with an ROS, then by hand. Sheessh, I loathe sanding - use a scraper when ever possible - much better finish.

Driver

5th February 2006, 10:58 PM

I'd like to be able to claim that I can get an entirely satisfactory finish with my hand planes. However, I use jarrah most of the time and jarrah is notorious for tricky and unpredictable grain. That means tear-out. Even with scrapers it's occasionally impossible to avoid.

If I'm working a large flat surface it's usually necessary to get the ROS out. I'm working on two pieces right now - a TV cabinet and a coffee table. I'll take them both up to 600 grit paper with the ROS and then apply Danish Oil and UBeaut wax.

Col

Skew ChiDAMN!!

5th February 2006, 11:03 PM

It depends on just what the piece is for, how happy I am with the quality and whether it's generally worth the effort. I don't try to polish a sow's ear. [shrug]

How I sand tends to depend on the size of the piece. With large items I'll use a ROS, small pieces are usually by hand. Turned items are either by hand or a non-powered rotary disk. I'll use up to 1200 on small items with corian or mineral inlays; then it's worth the effort. 'Tis a rare event that I go that high, though. For my better items, I'll go up to 600 and hand rub the finish while burnishing with 0000 steel wool.

The lower end? 180-240 grit, liberally applied with a belt sander. I go through a lot of sanding belts. :o

reo

5th February 2006, 11:52 PM

Just bought a ROS, so that'll be doing all the early sanding. Far superior to my old orbital. Then I hand sand to 240-400, then stain or sealer, rubbing down this and the top coats of oil with 600+ wet and dry or steel wool. But of course, if it's for relatives - 240 (max), slap on a coat of whatever's around , and hey presto..... there ya go! :) Cheers

redwood

5th February 2006, 11:57 PM

180 by hand. anything over is a waste of energy and sandpaper. and 600w/d inbetween coats of oil or laquer and i never use steel wool:eek: talk about a good way to stuff up a good finish :D

journeyman Mick

6th February 2006, 12:29 AM

redwood

6th February 2006, 12:38 AM

I must be an absolute heathen!:o I only sand to 280 with a ROS, spray on 2 -3 coats sanding sealer wet on wet. Then I sand back by hand with 320 and spray on a few more coats. That's all that Mirotone recommends and gives a good commercial standard of finish.

Mick

heathen:D hey i only go to 180 what dose that make me:D and the 600 is mainly for oil. 400 is what i prefer with laquer. i know a lot of cabinet shops that wont go over 120 and you cant tell the difference:confused:

dan_tom

6th February 2006, 08:27 AM

Add me to the heathen list, we only sand to 180 too. Suits our rustic style of furniture, it would be odd to have a mirror finish on a chunk of slab that still has the sapwood! I discovered the joys of a ROS recently when we bought our metabo, I was just using the Makita belt sander (I hate our bosch...) and palm sanders...

Cheers
Dan

Wood Borer

6th February 2006, 08:42 AM

Like most of the others, I sand as much as the piece requires whether that might be 80 or up to 1000 but usually 320 to 600.

Lignum

6th February 2006, 09:17 AM

I go to 180 with the ROS then back to 150 by hand which eliminates all swirl. I find that the perfect start to a perfect finish.

320 wet and dry In between coats of laquer and 600 before the final coat.

800/1200 wet and dry for applying oil.

And i to wont touch steel wool under any surcumstances:)

RufflyRustic

6th February 2006, 09:30 AM

I do most of my sanding by hand. I always start with 80, go through 120, 240, 400, 600 and hope my arms and hands last up to using 800. I may not always have all the grades in stock so will use whatever I have. I always try to aim for 800, then a coat of sanding sealer, more 800, then the finish. If I'm using organoil, then I'll finish sand up to 2000.

Until I get a good sander, powered or otherwise, or that plane refurbished, I'll be continuing to sand by hand.

cheers
RufflyRustic

Andy Mac

6th February 2006, 09:46 AM

I rarely go further than 240/280grit using a pnuematic sander, and possibly finish with 400 by hand, which suits my oil and wax apparoach. For a recent job on some trophies I went all out, progressively to 1000 wet & dry, but I find it frustrating and too expensive to buy the sheets, as they fill up so quickly. Too stingey really:p .
Turned items I go to 600 then 000? steel wool, usually finishing with a riggers glove full of shavings off the floor!
I really should look more into scrapers, having just bought a new Bahco one, but lack a proper burnisher.

Cheers,

Lignum

6th February 2006, 09:57 AM

Termite

6th February 2006, 10:45 AM

Depending on the job, up to 2500. Rarely less than 800.

echnidna

6th February 2006, 11:23 AM

It really depends on the finish you are going to use.
Pigment stains need to be sanded with 120 to 150.
Anything finer doesn't provide sufficient key for the oil stain.
120 to 150 is adequate for clear lacquer.
If its a woodturning (or crossgrain sanding) I might go to finer grits then.

TassieKiwi

6th February 2006, 01:07 PM

I sand to 4,000,000 then leave the piece in starlight for 2 years. Each coat of finish is then caressed by the feathers of the greater Ibis, before being finally polished with a secret mixture of 11 different bees' wax.

:rolleyes:

Each to thier own, but I have seen plenty of evidence that 150-180 for any timber is heaps. Search for 'raising the grain'. Once this is done and dealt with, your efforts are put to 'finishing the finish' rather than the timber itself.

Lignum

6th February 2006, 01:45 PM

Each to thier own, but I have seen plenty of evidence that 150-180 for any timber is heaps. Search for 'raising the grain'. Once this is done and dealt with, your efforts are put to 'finishing the finish' rather than the timber itself.

Exactly. Timber dosnt need any more than 150/180, and if anyone doubts that, then do a board up with different grits and polish it and see.

And as you say "finishing the finish" is then a different matter. And for me 320/400 - 600 for lacquer is heaps and 600/800 and a final 1200 for oil is also heaps, and often ill not worry about the 1200. Going up to 2500 is only appropriate if your into marquetry, otherwise its ridiculous as it serves no purpous at all.

TassieKiwi

6th February 2006, 04:37 PM

Yeah - would you rather make shavings or dust?

markharrison

6th February 2006, 09:43 PM

For an oil finish, I wet sand to 1200 with a ROS. I don't buy extra disks without holes unless I don't have any. I just rotate the holes so that they are off the dust extraction holes.

For a film finish, I power sand to 320 and hand sand to 400 for spots I can't get to with the sander.

E. maculata

6th February 2006, 10:33 PM

Disagree that 180 is equivalent to finer grades, maybe on some more open grained timbers, not on others with denser grain. Brushbox, grey ironbark, turpentine and greygum all can be made to shine prefinish, apply a damp cloth to raise the grain and start again;) quickly up through the grades finish off with white scotchbrite, then we get real serious with the oil:p . Works for me and I have done the comparo, plenty of times with control pieces cut from the same wood, even my floor in Grafton went to the white scotchbrite prefinish, admittedly mostly on an ROS, presanding dust removal is very important when doing this.

Bruce C. self admitted maschoist:o

Skew ChiDAMN!!

6th February 2006, 11:32 PM

Gotta agree with Bruce, the wood detemines the final grit.

With desert woods such as Boree, Red Bauhenia(sp?), etc. it's possible to get an almost mirror finish with higher grits before applying a finish, especially on a lathe. Well worth the extra effort. Crapiata, on the other hand, is a waste of 80 grit. ;)

Must admit that 0000 steel wool on raw timber is a no-no... unless one likes the eventual effect. [shudder]

MurrayD99

7th February 2006, 06:43 AM

........Moral to the story for me is dont sand over 150# theirs just no point:)

I agree. 120 grit belt sander makes a good enough job for me. But I'll hand sand (lightly) between coats with 240 grit. On MDF the edges look better if they are finished with an orbital sander at 120 grit.

Harry72

7th February 2006, 10:38 AM

Another that can determin final grit size is if your using oil/spirit based stains on light coloured woods any sanding marks will show up, nothing worse than dark ROS swirls in the middle of a table top!(600 is needed IMHO)
As Lig said you just dont need that finer grit... if using lacquers or poly 180 is well fine enough, and 320-400 between coats, I dont fancy going all the way to 2000 on a large cabinet made of crapiarta!
On a small box made of nice wood yes 2000 is well worth it, as people tend to inspect hand held sized/arty farty items much much closer.

Lignum

7th February 2006, 11:48 AM

I made a table last year that i belt sanded straight as i could with the grain to 80# then lightly dampened it with water and when dry, used a brass brush over (with) the grain to clean it up. Then a light hand sand over that with 150# to clean up any roughness on the top. Six coats of Livos were applied using a scotch bright. The top ended up just sensational. you just couldnt help rubbing your hands all over it and the proud new owners were just over the moon. They also couldnt stop touching it. The scratches left were very small but the texture was very evident, and cleaning wouldnt be a problem just wiping with the grain and a damp cloth.

Thats one extreme to what some are talking about here. Furniture i have seen with people going up into to the other extremes of sandpaper on bare timber, and way, way up in the polishing stages makes me ask myself why, whats the point. Apart from being proud that you can achieve such a high level of finish, or you are finishing special veneering or marquetry that calls for it, the extreme high end sanding on bare timber then with the polish is pointless. Good furniture has ballance, and that includes the final finish which should be in tune with the rest of the piece.

If your mind tells you 150# isnt enough on bare timber then 280# should be the maximum. 600# on your final lacquering stages, buffed with a compound will give an incredible level of quality finish. Wet sanding with oil and 800# and again buffed when completely cured will also achieve a stunning finish that will improve only a small fraction if you use 1200#.

And on the ROS swirl marks, what ever grit i want to finish at, and in my case its 150# i will ROS to 180# then go back and hand sand at 150# Since i have been doing that i rarley get swirl marks showing through:)

Termite

7th February 2006, 12:51 PM

Reading a few of these posts I'm sitting here shaking my head, and if I say much more I'll just get in a Sh$t fight. But I think I'll sell my jointer and thicknesser and get a broad axe and adze. ;)

Lignum

7th February 2006, 05:28 PM

Reading a few of these posts I'm sitting here shaking my head, and if I say much more I'll just get in a Sh$t fight. But I think I'll sell my jointer and thicknesser and get a broad axe and adze. ;)

Why dont you enlighten us with your methods, after all thats what everyone id doing:)

Termite

7th February 2006, 06:10 PM

Why dont you enlighten us with your methods, after all thats what everyone id doing:)
Let's just say that near enough is not good enough for me. ;) and I have already stated what I do.

Auld Bassoon

7th February 2006, 06:22 PM

I have a board in my workshop that is divided into three and sanded separately with 150# 320# and 600# with the identifying grits written on the back and not in order. Air was use to thoroughly remove all grit and sanding dust from the pours, then sprayed with four coats of laquer, very lightly sanded in between with 320# and 600# on the second last coat. Every single person that looks at that board can not identify which grit is wich. Its just impossible. Moral to the story for me is dont sand over 150# theirs just no point:)

G'day Lignum!

I hear what you say, and would agree that lower grit #s are fine for softwoods.

However, with woods like Jarrah, Redgum, Rosewood, etc, I have definitely found that the sheen improves as I step up the grit. For example, I recently received a sample piece of Rosewood. I planed it smooth (to a "silken" touch), then rubbed it with 600, 800 then 1200; at each stage it was quite noticeable how much more sheen was developing. The same thing has applied with RG.

The key question is: does this make any difference after the first coat of finish has been applied, whether it be floorseal, Danish oil, shellac or some other?

It's funny: when I got started in WW again, about 18 months ago, my finishes were comparable to a, ahem, "processed" dog's dinner:eek: Now they're more like the mutt's supper - before he gets to it :rolleyes:

Cheers!

Lignum

7th February 2006, 06:48 PM

Let's just say that near enough is not good enough for me. ;) and I have already stated what I do.

I was just hoping you would enlighten us as to why you are shaking your head:)

Termite

7th February 2006, 07:06 PM

I was just hoping you would enlighten us as to why you are shaking your head:)
Because I have seen too many otherwise fine jobs that have had a lot of work put in to them absolutely ruined at the finishing stage, simply because the person would not put the work into the finish that they put into building the job.

In the "Good Old Days" Cabinetmaking/Furnituremaking and Finishing were two separate trades, quite often for a very good reason. Usually because many a fine cabinetmaker wasn't a finishers asrehole. :(

Spend 6 weekends building a job then a quick scrub down with 120 and slap a coat of water based poly on 'er, she'll be right mate. That is exagerating the issue, but it is the attitude that is partly coming through to me.

echnidna

7th February 2006, 07:14 PM

Because I have seen too many otherwise fine jobs that have had a lot of work put in to them absolutely ruined at the finishing stage, simply because the person would not put the work into the finish that they put into building the job.

In the "Good Old Days" Cabinetmaking/Furnituremaking and Finishing were two separate trades, quite often for a very good reason. Usually because many a fine cabinetmaker wasn't a finishers asrehole. :(

Spend 6 weekends building a job then a quick scrub down with 120 and slap a coat of water based poly on 'er, she'll be right mate. That is exagerating the issue, but it is the attitude that is partly coming through to me.

Its interesting that the pro woodies generally don't go over 150 yet the recreational woodies go to very fine grits. Makes me think that the recreational woodies haven't learnt to sand properly so they tend to over compensate by going to finer and finer grits.

Lignum

7th February 2006, 07:24 PM

G'day Lignum!

I hear what you say, and would agree that lower grit #s are fine for softwoods.

However, with woods like Jarrah, Redgum, Rosewood, etc, I have definitely found that the sheen improves as I step up the grit. For example, I recently received a sample piece of Rosewood. I planed it smooth (to a "silken" touch), then rubbed it with 600, 800 then 1200; at each stage it was quite noticeable how much more sheen was developing. The same thing has applied with RG.

The key question is: does this make any difference after the first coat of finish has been applied, whether it be floorseal, Danish oil, shellac or some other?

It's funny: when I got started in WW again, about 18 months ago, my finishes were comparable to a, ahem, "processed" dog's dinner:eek: Now they're more like the mutt's supper - before he gets to it :rolleyes:

Cheers!

Steve:) First thing, i rarely use softwoods and use lots of Jarrah, Redgum and sometimes Rosewood, so im basing my technique those types of timbers. Sanding or planing up to and then 600/800/1200# on raw timber makes a very big difference than just sanding to 150/180# its very noticeable.

Comparing the two extreams when they are polished - With 150/180# as long as the quality of your sanding is spot on and it has been thoroughly blasted with air to remove all traces of dust and grit from the pores, then as soon as you finish each board (150/180 and 600/800/1200) identically with a good quality finish and technique, that difference then disappears. If you get out a magnifying glass, obviously it will be different, but to the naked eye the same. But looking at a nice piece of furniture with a quality finish, the difference will be minimal.

As you would have noticed by now with everything i write, keeping things simple, is to me the most important technique in woodwork. And in lots of ways thats harder said than done. Its something that is diffucult to teach but something you have to learn to feel . So many make the mistake of thinking by going that extra 5% in all stages will increase the quality of the piece by 5 or 10% and it dosnt. My favourite word is ballance, get that right and your furniture will take on a whole new aspect:)

Lignum

7th February 2006, 07:34 PM

Because I have seen too many otherwise fine jobs that have had a lot of work put in to them absolutely ruined at the finishing stage, simply because the person would not put the work into the finish that they put into building the job.

In the "Good Old Days" Cabinetmaking/Furnituremaking and Finishing were two separate trades, quite often for a very good reason. Usually because many a fine cabinetmaker wasn't a finishers asrehole. :(

Spend 6 weekends building a job then a quick scrub down with 120 and slap a coat of water based poly on 'er, she'll be right mate. That is exagerating the issue, but it is the attitude that is partly coming through to me.

Termite:) You are absoulutly correct in your assesment. And so is Bob. I find people going up in grits because they are to lazy to sand corectly in the first place. Put a finish over 150# and it looks terrible so go to 600# and it looks ten times better. If they sand with patience and do it corectly in the first place, they would be surprised just how good 150# will look:)

RufflyRustic

8th February 2006, 10:02 AM

Now this is something I gotta try.

I'm working on a shelf thingee (needs a name but haven't got there yet) made from some sort of reddish gum. It's got watermarks and gum pockets and needs sanding.

So, to test the theories here, I should be able to sand it with 80, 100, then 150 and then put on my finish??

Now, to make sure I'm sanding correctly, are there any particular methods of sanding besides with the grain, that I should follow?

I have the sandpaper, a cork sanding block, tack cloths - anything else?

edit - should I start another thread if there is enough interest or keep it here?

cheers
RufflyRustic

Lignum

8th February 2006, 11:48 AM

Wendy:) The way to look at it, sandpaper cuts scratches in the timber. I know it sounds obvious, but to develop good sanding technique its important to remember . When you use 80# the scratches are of a certain depth, then you go to 100# and naturally you get finer scratches. The aim is to completely remove the depth of the 80# scratches and replace them with the depth of the finer 100# scratches and that takes some patience and time to make sure they are all removed. Then going to 120# and repeating, then onto 150# then onto 180# At that point you should have a very fine surface area. If you dont have compressed air, just dust it down with a brush and vacuum it as good as you can (you should do this inbetween every new grit) then dampen the surface with a wet cloth.

When it has dried, with a soft leaded pencil, lightly mark square grids over the surface about 150-200mm sq. And have a good hard close look in every grid for blemishes from the sanding and/or little chips and holes. Circle them with your pencil and fix the holes and chips, then with a good sanding block, i use a 1/2 sheet plastic pad from an automotive shop that has spring clips on the end just like a 1/2 sheet orbital. Cork blocks are to small, they just dont do a good job. Going back to 150# in the pad, rub up and down the top using good pressure so you can feel the sandpaper doing its job, if you do it to light its not cutting. Sand, paying attention to the circled marks, and when all the pencil circle and grids have gone you know you have given the entire top a thorough sand. To finish you can put on a fresh 180# and carefully and with light pressure and long strokes go over the entire surface. Resist going up and back in the same motion on your final sand, because until you get good technique where you stop and return you can end up with small sanded curves that will show through the finish.

The important thing now is to remove as much dust and grit from the top as you possibly can with a good brush and your vacuum. As long as you take your time and dont skip grits, youl end up with a very nice surface. Have fun:)

RufflyRustic

8th February 2006, 11:53 AM

:rolleyes: Sheesh, so that's what I've been doing wrong!!

Thanks Lignum. I'll let you all know how it goes.

cheers
Wendy

Auld Bassoon

8th February 2006, 05:42 PM

Steve:) First thing, i rarely use softwoods and use lots of Jarrah, Redgum and sometimes Rosewood, so im basing my technique those types of timbers. Sanding or planing up to and then 600/800/1200# on raw timber makes a very big difference than just sanding to 150/180# its very noticeable.

Comparing the two extreams when they are polished - With 150/180# as long as the quality of your sanding is spot on and it has been thoroughly blasted with air to remove all traces of dust and grit from the pores, then as soon as you finish each board (150/180 and 600/800/1200) identically with a good quality finish and technique, that difference then disappears. If you get out a magnifying glass, obviously it will be different, but to the naked eye the same. But looking at a nice piece of furniture with a quality finish, the difference will be minimal.

As you would have noticed by now with everything i write, keeping things simple, is to me the most important technique in woodwork. And in lots of ways thats harder said than done. Its something that is diffucult to teach but something you have to learn to feel . So many make the mistake of thinking by going that extra 5% in all stages will increase the quality of the piece by 5 or 10% and it dosnt. My favourite word is ballance, get that right and your furniture will take on a whole new aspect:)

Thanks Lignum:)

I appreciate your time in answering my dopey beginner questions - I had, as you'd initmated, assumed that by bring each stage up by a few percent, that the final outcome would be that much better:o Happy to learn from one with a lot more experience....

Auld Bassoon

8th February 2006, 05:50 PM

Termite:) You are absoulutly correct in your assesment. And so is Bob. I find people going up in grits because they are to lazy to sand corectly in the first place. Put a finish over 150# and it looks terrible so go to 600# and it looks ten times better. If they sand with patience and do it corectly in the first place, they would be surprised just how good 150# will look:)

I'm sensing the need for a sanding and a finishing "masterclass" here!

Graeme from (Ex-Woodpeckers) put on a paid router course late last year; I'm wondering if there might be enough forum interest to get together a group of members here in Melbourne to pay someone for one or more tutorials on sanding and/or finishing techniques? I'd be game for such!

Perhaps a PM if anyone's keen?

Lignum

8th February 2006, 06:10 PM

Steve:) No such thing as a dopey question:D The way i described my way of doing a simple process like sanding to Wendy gives me a really nice blemish free finish just going to 150#

One day when you are bored, get a couple of meter length pieces and plane/scrape and 600/800/1200 one, and sand from 80# all the way up to 1200# on the other. Divide each stage as you go and mark with a pencil or scribe in between and on the back write which is which. Then polish it up as good as you can possibly can and then use that as a reference for the future.

I can tell you how and why i do it and Fred Blogs will tell you his best surefire way. Every one has a different sanding technique that will alter the outcome using the same method. Your test piece will tel YOU exactly what stage you should be looking at when the cut off point arrives:)

Auld Bassoon

8th February 2006, 06:32 PM

markharrison

8th February 2006, 07:07 PM

I just want to add one other comment on this to my previous one.

End Grain: I sand this to at least 1500. I then use a wash coat of shellac on it. This is especially useful when using oils. You get a nice even absorption without the end grain being muddy. In fact the end grain will look quite nice.

MathewA

8th February 2006, 07:24 PM

Impossible to answer without writing a book. In short it depends on the project. Somethings are fine without any sanding what so ever; fence post tops that I used to make. Others are buffed to with very fine buffing compound to a mirror finish (12" finish); smaller projects that are rarely over 12" in size. Even with furniture it depends on what I'm trying to achieve. Some pieces have had no sanding, others I've sanded to 80 grit and then beat the hell out of them. Other projects, usually the reproduction furniture, I'll use a high quality 3M paper that is rated at 240 grit but feels more like 400 grit and then finish off with 0000 steel wool.... What I sand to depends on what I plan to use as a finish also.