Best contact glue for veneer?

[marcush2k6]

If one has no alternative but to use Contact Adhesive to stick down veneer and marquetry panels does anyone know from experience which is the best brand to use in order to minimise dreaded blebs?

Thanks
Terence :)

[chrisb691]

Can't offer advice, as you don't have the same brands available in the UK. Tell me what a 'bleb' is, and I may be able to help.

[Auld Bassoon]

At a guess, I'd say a 'bleb' was an air bubble.

If caught soon enough, eg before the glue has gone off, a small incision with a sharp thin blade through the bubbled section followed by the use of a roller can be a fix.

If the glue has hardened, however, then it's foreign language practice :eek:

Cheers!

[scooter]

Terence, no experience in veneering, so take this with a grain of salt, but when I was using contact adhesive to stick down laminex when building my router table, I found the Laminex brand adhesive was thinner that a few other contact adhesives I tried (Selleys Kwik Grip, *& Bear Norton brand).

This made it a lot easier to spread out evenly, and resulted in a smoother final surface.

Dunno if you can get that brand over there, and even if it's suitable for timber veneer, but there you go. :)

HTH...........cheers...............Sean

[powderpost]

Terence, I have used quite a lot of veneer, mostly 0.6mm thick. Assuming your veneer is the same thickness, I would strongly urge you not to use contact cement. It is nearly impossible to spread it evenly enough. If, however your venner is much thicker, you may be succesful. I use a cross linked, polyaliphatic pva adhesive. That in english, is an external pva. Your brand names would be different from ours here in Australia. You might be familiar with Titebond 11. That is an American adhesive that you may be familiar with. Pva glue is water based and will make the veneer swell. So, apply the glue to the grounds (base) only, lay the veneer and press fairly smartly. But then that will depend on the project and its size. Hope this is of some help.
Jim

[Iain]

PVA, crosslinked PVA or hide glue, apply to both surfaces and allow to dry then iron on.
The bubbles can be pretty much eliminated during the ironing process.
Use a lint free cloth too as the iron can leave black marks (as I found out).

[steko]

I've seen "glue film" available from online veneer sellers in the UK. While not a contact adhesive it might be suitable.

I've been trying to track down an Aussie supplier for the last day or two without success so far - maybe someone can help.

As far as I can tell it has a peel off backing and comes in rolls (10x1 metres) or sheets (1 x 1 metre). You cut it to size, peel off the backing, lay it on your base material, lay the veneer over that and iron on with medium hot iron using the backing material as protection between the iron and the veneer.

Has anyone used it?

[Miltzy]

contact adhesive remains elastic after the veneer has been stuck. might be fine for a short lenght if time but i would avoid. Even Cross linked PVA is elastic expecially when the ambient temp rises. ( thermoplastic) I had had great sucess using UF (urea formaldyhyde) even epoxy on dark timbers. leave contact for the kitchen makers.

[Joe Lighty]

Dredging up an OLD post!
Ok, so I've had a bit of a seemingly "eureka" moment, whilst embarking upon my first veneering job (and it's a big job!)
I'm making an entertainment unit to house hifi equipment and to sit the TV on - making in MDF and veneering in Blackhole Blackbutt raw 0.6mm veneer.
From my research I commenced using the PVA iron-on method - this has only had limited success and I've only tackled some of the smaller pieces thus far - eventually I'll be veneering panels that are 1600mm x 500mm!!! This issues I've experienced thus far with the PVA / iron-on method (with veneer hammer) are thus:
1) PVA (being water based) swells the veneer and makes it curl (limited the curl by holding down with masking tape whilst it dries - kinda works)
2) When you apply the PVA'd veneer to the PVA'd MDF and apply the hot iron, the bond is pretty good, but the veneer subsequently shrinks at is heats up, leading to, in some cases, splits through the veneer.
3) the bond, whilst usually good, is sometimes not that good - it is possible, with minor effort, to prise the veneer off the MDF substrate.
Anyway, in frustration and real concern over how much money I've potentially wasted (on veneer!), I (despite ALL the advice on the internet to the contrary) tried some contact adhesive - Sikabond Sprayfix - in an aerosol can - on a small piece. Read somewhere that someone tried this AND ironed it on for good measure, which I did AND used the veneering hammer to give it a real good press! The following was my experience:
1) when you spray the Sikabond Sprayfix onto the veneer, guess what happens - NOTHING - ABSOLUTELY NO CURLING, EXPANDING, ANYTHING!
2) when the contact adhesive was only slightly tacky, I joined both pieces, applied the hot iron (with some force) and then gave the piece a quick working with the veneering hammer - let it sit for a few hours.
3) the result is an AMAZING bond (compared with my PVA experiments) - couldn't pry the veneer off if I tried!

BUT, before I get all carried away with excitement, I turn to the learned folk here - am I kidding myself - is this going to fail miserably when the temperature changes and the veneer wants to creep (over a 1600mm x 500mm piece)????? Or can I go to bed happy with my magnificent method!

Please let me know your thoughts...

[elanjacobs]

1) when you spray the Sikabond Sprayfix onto the veneer, guess what happens - NOTHING - ABSOLUTELY NO CURLING, EXPANDING, ANYTHING!
Of course. Contact glue is a surface adhesive and is not made to be absorbed, hence no movement.
I've never tried using heat with contact glue, I find that it works just fine by itself :shrug:

[Joe Lighty]

I've never tried using heat with contact glue, I find that it works just fine by itself :shrug:
Thanks for your response - maybe the heat thing did/does little to contribute to the result - I'll do some more trials!
Do you think that contact adhesive will be ok for the project I describe above??

[Bohdan]

Using the hot iron is totally unnecessary as the glue relies on pressure to make the bond. Rubbing it with a veneering hammer should result in sufficient pressure to get a good bond. Years ago when I was doing a lot of this 3M released a glue which only needed to be sprayed on one surface and it worked real well.

Interestingly because you only sprayed it on one surface you used half the quantity of glue, so they priced it exactly double. :doh:

PS. The new glue was clear unlike the normal contact so the glue lies didn't show on the edges.

[elanjacobs]

I think it'll be fine. Any particular reason you want to DIY? There are places that will press anything onto anything with a 300t press and that's never coming off.

[Joe Lighty]

I think it'll be fine. Any particular reason you want to DIY? There are places that will press anything onto anything with a 300t press and that's never coming off.
Ha, perhaps that's a VERY good question. I guess, for starters, I wasn't aware such a service existed - I'm somewhat "along the path" now, but will look it up in the future! I also would like to DIY from an "achievement" point of view - however, when it all turns to custard, I might be wondering the same as you!
Appreciate your input!

[ian]

for DIY veneering (using 0.6 mm veneer), I've had good success using ordinary PVA and one of these Vacuum Press - Lee Valley Tools (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=51167&cat=1,250,43298,43314,51167)

for curved surfaces, I've also used PVA, a veneer hammer and lots of masking tape

for your 1600 x 500 piece, I'd buy a couple of metres of this https://www.bunnings.com.au/crystal-clear-0-3mm-137cm-vinyl-tablecloth_p6640026 from Bunnings and add the Roarocket kit one end. Duct tape works as a air seal and a domestic vac will pull most of the air out very quickly.

[Dirk_Pittwater]

I'm a cabinetmaker and joiner and deal with veneers almost everyday.

I can say that from my experience it's not worth the hassle in glueing the veneer on yourself when there are companies that will do this for you on whatever substrate you'd like with a proper press.

Every time I have contacted veneer on it sticks very well but as soon as I put a polyurethane clear sealer coat or topcoat on it the thinners in the paint lifts the veneer off due to eating away the contact. This gives you a bubble effect and it is not redeemable after this has happened.

If I have to do it now I use a vacuum press and either pva for small pieces or a 2 pac epoxy for large area stuff or whole sheets.
As I said above it will be better and more worth while in the long run to get it layed up by a board manufacturer in the thicknesses you need.
That's what we do and that's my opinion.
Hope this info helps your decision on how to go about it.

Cheers
Dirk.

[graham.murfett]

Would hide glue be better?

[ian]

almost certainly -- it will allow you a much extended working time

but you may wish to readup on how hammer veneering is done with hide glue

[Joe Lighty]

Every time I have contacted veneer on it sticks very well but as soon as I put a polyurethane clear sealer coat or topcoat on it the thinners in the paint lifts the veneer off due to eating away the contact. This gives you a bubble effect and it is not redeemable after this has happened.


Bugger. I appreciate your expert advice - I'm a fair way down the road in this project - perhaps will try a water based varnish (but that will probably swell the veneer??) or maybe another type of topcoat (open to all advice!). The vacuum option is not really available - not ready to invest any more in this equipment at the moment. Will do some small test pieces and keep my fingers crossed!
As said, I really appreciate this expert advice!

[Dirk_Pittwater]

Bugger. I appreciate your expert advice - I'm a fair way down the road in this project - perhaps will try a water based polyurethane (but that will probably swell the veneer??) or maybe another topcoat. The vacuum option is not really available - not ready to invest any more in this equipment at the moment. Will do some small test pieces and keep my fingers crossed!
As said, I really appreciate this expert advice!

Waterbased poly will be fine to use.

I was just reading what I wrote last night in my tired state and I think it came across that you CAN'T contact and poly it at all.
This is not true and sorry if I lead you to thinking this. As I do a lot of veneer work and we always need it asap the contact is a no go for us. If you were to contact it and leave it to dry for a decent amount of time say about a week in the cold weather it will work but when you go to poly it you'd need to spray a really light coat of sealer or topcoat first to seal the veneer so that when you lay on the other coats it won't penetrate through to the contact.

Hope this is more clear.


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