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CameronPotter
26th May 2006, 04:56 PM
Hi,

I have done a search on this and found quite a few people liked the Munro hollowing tool, however I have noticed that the Vermec system is slightly more expensive and the Sorby system is MUCH more expensive.

Usually you get what you pay for - can anyone say why the Munro is cheaper - is there some things that this can't do that the others can?

Basically, I am looking for advice on a hollowing tool for deep hollowing and small entry hollow forms.

Cam

Jim Carroll
26th May 2006, 09:14 PM
The Munro tools can do everything the others do and easier.
You can work in through a small opening.
You have a guard over the cutter to eliminate catches and control the cut.
You can work deep into a hollow form and get good feedback from the tool.

hughie
27th May 2006, 02:04 PM
[cameron,
I bought the cutters and made my own Munro to see how effective the concept was and it works fine. So much so I will up grade my home made job to the real thing done the track . If you going to the US it might be cheaper to get over here rather than there.

huighie

CameronPotter
27th May 2006, 02:24 PM
Thanks fellas.

Well, that pretty much sorts that out! :D

Cheers

Cam

Gil Jones
27th May 2006, 04:02 PM
Cam,
Over here at Lee Valley Tools,
Munro Hollower with no handle is $194 USD,
and with the handle it is $235 USD.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49127&cat=1,330,49232&ap=1

bitingmidge
27th May 2006, 05:05 PM
Over here at Lee Valley Tools,
Munro Hollower with no handle is $194 USD,
and with the handle it is $235 USD
That's about $310 AUD and postage will be a heap more than the $295.00 for the same thing from Carrolls plus not much for postage.

Cheers,

P (I've got a birthday coming up.... I wonder....)
:D :D :D

rsser
27th May 2006, 07:33 PM
If memory serves, there's a review of the Munro on Fred Holder's site or newsletter, done by Lyn M.

I use one and find it excellent on end grain. I'm still working to get good results on side grain. Rolly Munro answers my email queries pretty much overnight and you can't argue about the value of that. Jim Carroll also demo's the Munro at shows, and I'm sure would also help with your queries.

soundman
27th May 2006, 09:40 PM
I seem to remember neil pointing out the "actual Rolly Munro" at the brisbane show.

Hickory
28th May 2006, 03:54 AM
Seems Monro is from NZ so you guys should be able to get one cheaper than in US.... http://www.rollymunro.co.nz/html/fmain.html No mention of the cost or how to get it on his ste But there is a contact address there and I bet you can order from him.

Mikko
28th May 2006, 06:44 AM
What Ern said. I have used one quite a bit and it works pretty well on end grain, but is very temperamental on cross grain. I'm prolly doing something wrong.

I'm personally planning on getting a Woodcut bundle. Few friends have recommended them highly.

Cheers,
Mikko

CameronPotter
29th May 2006, 10:41 AM
Thanks guys and special thanks to Gil and Midge for a quick price comparison.

I also have a birthday coming up - thus the question! :D

rsser
29th May 2006, 06:03 PM
What Ern said. I have used one quite a bit and it works pretty well on end grain, but is very temperamental on cross grain. I'm prolly doing something wrong.

Cheers,
Mikko

Hey Mikko,

This is Rolly's advice on my problem; haven't had a chance to try it out yet:

"The standard hollower should work very well on the inside wall. 4 things to note:

1. rotation speed should be low. On a diameter of
140mm ish around 700rpm - slower the larger etc.

2. sharpness - should checked for sharpness - dull tools don't work

3. cutter - depth gauge gap should be reduced to give good finish

4. cutter head rotation/orientation -
should be roughly pointing at the wall surface; so that the line through the cutter head is 90 deg to the internal surface being cut.

The tool is presented nose down and lifted into
the cut. Feel the for the weight of cut most suited to your purpose."

TimberNut
30th May 2006, 02:29 PM
Cam, I saw Rolly himself doing a demo at the Timber and Working with Wood show in Sydney last year.

I talked his ear off for about 1 1/2 hours on it and at the end the only thing stopping my purchase was the "keeper of the finances".

Since then a lot of grovelling has "adjusted" her thinking on the subject.

I have hollowed spheres to dangerously thin levels with standard hook nosed scrapers before, and digin's don't forgive these pieces.
Now I've got a Munro, and can highly recommend it. Used as per his directions it's a wonderful step forward in hollowing safely.

Spoke to Enzo re the Vermec solution and even though I own a Vicmarc lathe, and other Vermec toys, I'd have to say you get much more flexibility with Munro's tool.

I can highly recommend spending the dough.

Now to this years show in a couple of weeks....hmm. better start storing up the IOU's with her in advance. I can smell another dream purchase argument around the corner..... :-)

CameronPotter
30th May 2006, 03:07 PM
Thanks Ian,

I reckon I have some grovelling to do! ;) :D

rsser
30th May 2006, 05:26 PM
Joke doing the rounds is that Rolly only takes two tools to demo's.

His hollowing tool and a skew. The skew is to stir his tea.

CameronPotter
30th May 2006, 05:35 PM
Joke doing the rounds is that Rolly only takes two tools to demo's.

His hollowing tool and a skew. The skew is to stir his tea.

:D :D :D

(I always knew that Skew was a stirrer)...

TTIT
30th May 2006, 06:04 PM
Sounds like I really should get myself a Rolly after drooling over it in the Carbatec catalog for years, wondering if it really works or is just an expensive gimmick (being my own treasurer, I have to play both sides of the fence!). I think I'll still follow Hughie's lead and try making my own first. (Then go and buy one anyway!:o )

rsser
30th May 2006, 06:13 PM
It's not a gimmick but it does have limitations like any tool - and I say that before having paid close attention to Rolly's instructions above. When I do I might be more enthusiastic, who knows?

That said, it's a hoot of a tool for dealing with softwoods or green timber, both end and side-grain.

Mikko
1st June 2006, 11:02 PM
Hmm....maybe I'll try it again with my new lathe (when it will finally arrive).
Woodcut can wait a tad...

The lathe I have used it with does not have variable speed....
I think I have been spinning the log too fast.

Also, I noticed that my hands got very tired after few hours of working with it...so that pretty means that I MUST be doing something wrong.

I think I'll try to come up with a better hollowing toolrest too.
Irons looks pretty good but might ask my "pet engineer" to make me one with more reach into the form.

I read somewhere that the Munro cutter gets better when its resharpened as the gap between the cutter and guard gets larger?? Tiny washers were also suggested as a quick fix. Mine tends to glog up pretty quick, but that could also be our timbers (prolly not). Need to see to that washer installation.

Being still "youngish and eager" I proceeded directly into making hollows...
Might be a very good idea to turn few vases and bowls with it first. :o

One thing I sure do not like is the fact that Munro tool is apparently unable to perform a plunge cut like Proforme. It this true? :confused:
I had most terrible time trying and after a while went for back hollowing the centre out with a gouge (had not a suitable forstner bit at hand).

Ideas or comments more than welcome.

Cheers,
Mikko

hughie
2nd June 2006, 01:05 AM
I read somewhere that the Munro cutter gets better when its resharpened as the gap between the cutter and guard gets larger?? Tiny washers were also suggested as a quick fix. Mine tends to glog up pretty quick, but that could also be our timbers (prolly not). Need to see to that washer installation.
One thing I sure do not like is the fact that Munro tool is apparently unable to perform a plunge cut like Proforme. It this true? :confused:


Mikko,

I think the extra gap part is true. I fiddled around and made my own Munro and noticed that the blocking was the only real problem. So I have increased the gap, but as yet have not used it since.
But I agree with Ern on green timber , end grain etc it works like a dream. Although cos I cant do plunge cuts very well with it :mad: I perfer my Proforme. You can though, run down the side of a large drilled hole in a sort of side/plunge cut. But it needs to be around 25-30mm or so.

I use my profrome as a bulk removal tool and boy! it will rip green timber out like theres no tomorrow. If you set it too coarse it will self feed into the timber if you dont watch it :eek: :D
The Proforme tool rest can prevent this and its fairly easy to make for your self. Again its needs to be a large diameter or open vessel. My tool rest and cutter head need about 45-50mm minimum to get away with it.
hughie

Mikko
2nd June 2006, 04:16 AM
You can though, run down the side of a large drilled hole in a sort of side/plunge cut. But it needs to be around 25-30mm or so.

Yep....that much I know. Hence the back hollowing cut to make some room for the tool to operate.

So...you do like the Proforme?
Do you see that you could live with only one of them or that they (Proforme and Munro) complement each other?

Cheers,
Mikko

rsser
2nd June 2006, 08:24 AM
In my experience if the cutter is sharp you get much less clogging. You get fibre build up in the corners of the gap but that just means keeping the tip square on to the wood as Rolly advised above. This way its essentially self cleaning.

A somewhat ground away cutter won't give you any anti-clogging advantage cos the gap is basically set by where you fix the cap. That said, Pascal Oudet uses a paper washer to get more clearance.

Starting slow helps on side grain, as does taking care to keep the bevel rubbing. If you get shallow gouge marks then you need to retrue by gently bringing up the tip and cutting with its edge without the bevel rubbing.

btw, which model Munro do you have? Orig. or latest? On my original the swan neck cuts best - seems to have a sweet spot on the tip that the straight neck lacks.

hughie
2nd June 2006, 10:51 AM
So...you do like the Proforme?
Do you see that you could live with only one of them or that they (Proforme and Munro) complement each other?


Mikko,
Hmmmm good question, dunno really. If you had one or the other I guess one would be forced to develop the skills to a higher level :D

A lot oF NZ turners swear by the Proforme. I like the concept, its basically a plane on a stick. With time I will develop greater skills, much of it at the moment is getting the settings right. I get a little impatient with all the adjusting of the shield etc :mad:

Whereas the Munro has less adjustment requirements and Rolly has put out the best set of instructions ever......well I think.
In the end its horses for courses. They both are good at what they do. But dont do the same thing. ie they do have limitations and these limitations are not quite the same as each other.

You can buy the head separate to the whole system.[ Proforme ] This makes it less expensive than a good gouge :D making the handle is very simple and inexpensive.
Maybe go this way to try it out, this is what I did and its fine.
hughie

TTIT
2nd June 2006, 11:58 AM
Mikko,
You can buy the head separate to the whole system.[ Proforme ] This makes it less expensive than a good gouge :D making the handle is very simple and inexpensive.
hughie

What diameter is the spigot on the Proforme Hughie? - wondering if it will fit 'Big Bertha' (my homemade hollower) --- and where do you buy just the head?

hughie
2nd June 2006, 01:39 PM
What diameter is the spigot on the Proforme Hughie? - wondering if it will fit 'Big Bertha' (my homemade hollower) --- and where do you buy just the head?


TTIT, Spigot dia is 5/16 x 1/2 long imperial a bit odd in todays world.[ no doubt for the benefit of the USA as he sells lot of them there. ]
While I am here - shaft dia 3/4'' x 10'' overall 22'' for the straight one and 11'' for the goose neck, thought of putting handle on it this weekend, nah! gonna go to the woodshow instead. Plus in both cases the cutter head.

Its available from Woodcut as a complete assembly or head only.
The proforme has two flats at 90' on the spigot so two grub screws are required, m6 does fine.

If you drill the hole off centre and toward the top of the bar you will avoid making a cut away like I had to - see the straight one.

If your gonna use the S.S. for one of them and bend a goose neck use some heat. I did mine cold on a press, had few bits fly past my head........exciting stuff! not recommended.

http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/product.php?xProd=89&xSec=21

or as replacement cutter only no shield

http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/product.php?xProd=90&xSec=21

and PDF instructions.... that I have yet to read :D

http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/media/Instructions/Woodcut%20Proforme.pdf

this is where I got mine from.

hughie

Mikko
2nd June 2006, 03:46 PM
Ern: I have the articulated version with all the possible gizmos available at that time. I really do not know if it is the newest version....bought it from Rolly year and a half ago.

"A somewhat ground away cutter won't give you any anti-clogging advantage cos the gap is basically set by where you fix the cap. That said, Pascal Oudet uses a paper washer to get more clearance."

You lost me here Ern. When the cup cutter is ground the gap/clearance between the guard and the edge will increase as the guard can not be adjusted vertically without using washers. Right? We are talking about the same thing? I'm having my lathe electrics fixed and the whole workshop is being redone so I can not go and test this washer trick. *AARRGHH*

I think I'll buy a Proforme too. One can never have too many tools....:p

These tools are a very facinating subject in my opinion.
They seem so easy to use, but do indeed require practice...and lot of it.

How about the toolrests? I do think that they are a very important factor here.
What types you guys use? As said, the Irons type looks OK but I would like to have one with more reach into the form. Has anyone used the VB type rest in any other lathe?

Cheers,
Mikko

CameronPotter
2nd June 2006, 03:54 PM
I think that the confusion about the clearance is that Ern hasn't realised that as the Munro cutter is sharpened, the actual height of the cutter reduces - if I understand it correctly. The reason for this is that the outside edge is ground away, and as this happens, the actual height of the edge become lower as it follows the internal hollow of the cutter.

I think that Ern thought you were talking about the horizontal movement of the guard...

I hope that this clears things up - otherwise I am really confused. :o

hughie
2nd June 2006, 04:03 PM
IHow about the toolrests? I do think that they are a very important factor here.
What types you guys use? As said, the Irons type looks OK but I would like to have one with more reach into the form. Has anyone used the VB type rest in any other lathe?


Mikko,
I would recommened the "irons tool rest" It provides a much steadier platform to turn from.
As usual I have made my own, but with some slight differences. I have offset the post and made it much longer so I can reach further into the vessel.
Its made from 25mm sq ms bar 300mm long with holes centres at 50mm. The pin at the end can be knocked out as its only there for the use of convential tools. Can be very exciting when the gouge falls off the end at 2000rpm :eek:

hughie

Mikko
2nd June 2006, 04:04 PM
Cameron: Yes, that is exactly what I meant. As the cutter is cup shaped, grinding it will also affect the height of the cutter.

Cheers,
M

Mikko
2nd June 2006, 04:09 PM
Hughie: Do you know how long is the bar of Irons rest? Surely not 300m as yours?

M

hughie
2nd June 2006, 04:26 PM
Mikko from the look of it about 150mm to 200mm at a guess hughie

Mikko
2nd June 2006, 04:44 PM
That is what I figured too.
I think that would be enough for hollowing, but for very tall vases and such a longer reach would come handy.
Sounds like a DIY project to me.

Cheers,
Mikko

TTIT
2nd June 2006, 05:24 PM
Spigot dia is 5/16 x 1/2 long imperial a bit odd in todays world
If your gonna use the S.S. for one of them and bend a goose neck use some heat. I did mine cold on a press, had few bits fly past my head........exciting stuff! not recommended.

hughie

Bugga! "Big Bertha" is drilled out to 3/8". I'll have to make a new shaft if I get one.:(
Discovered the problem of bending stainless as a kid making custom rear pegs for the Bonneville - not soon forgotten when it happens to you!:o
Might wait and see how the home made Rolly goes before I cough up for the Proforme. Thanks for the pointers.

hughie
2nd June 2006, 05:58 PM
"Big Bertha" is drilled out to 3/8". I'll have to make a


TTIT Try making a sleeve and split it long ways to contract. 5/16 to 3/8 sound very close to tube sizes.
hughie

rsser
2nd June 2006, 06:09 PM
"I think that the confusion about the clearance is that Ern hasn't realised that as the Munro cutter is sharpened, the actual height of the cutter reduces - if I understand it correctly. "

Quite right, I wasn't thinking straight. Tho you may need a few sharpenings on the recommended 120 grit wheel to reduce the external diameter of the cutter by much.

Below is a pic of my attempts at hollowing rests. I haven't found the Munro needs the pin for bracing as it's pretty civilised. The end of the rest on the left was a mistake made when I had all my customised rests replaced with 1" shanks to fit the Stubby - the plate should have been welded perpendicular to the arm. If I can be bothered to get this changed, I'll have a short length of round section steel attached at right angles.

CameronPotter
2nd June 2006, 06:39 PM
Quite right, I wasn't thinking straight. Tho you may need a few sharpenings on the recommended 120 grit wheel to reduce the external diameter of the cutter by much.


Yeah, I wasn't sure of how much effect it would make as I don't yet have one (to sharpen)... yet. :D