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rsser
28th May 2006, 12:58 PM
Hi folks,

Wonder if you can help.

I plan to make a couple of tools from round 5/16" HSS tips - inserted into 5/8" rod (going for that size rod to fit a system handle I already have).

1. Will mild steel do for the rod?
2. How deep should the tip be embedded?
3. Any tips on how to round off the rod where it will meet the tip?

I have a drill press, 4" angle grinder and of course a bench grinder.

Thanks in advance,

Gil Jones
28th May 2006, 01:32 PM
Hey Ern,
Mild steel will work. Mine is drilled
in the end 5/16" by 1 1/2" deep. Then about 5/8" back, drill and tap for a
3/16" setscrew. Then drill a 3/16" hole, all the way through
the bar, at a 15° to 20° angle, but make it to 90° to the setscrew, and cross
directly under the setscrew. Now you can use a 5/16" bit or a 3/16"
offset bit, either one secured by the same setscrew. Just bevel the end, and
maybe grind some angled flats on each side that the 3/16” bit goes through, for
wood clearance. Hope this is helpful.

rsser
28th May 2006, 02:07 PM
Thanks Gil. Clever design.

I'd been thinking just to superglue the bit in the hole, but you get two bit mounts in one.

Gil Jones
28th May 2006, 03:12 PM
You are welcome, Ern, I know several folks who use CA for a setscrew, works OK, but it is difficult to get the bit out unless you heat up the bar to release the CA bond.

Toolin Around
28th May 2006, 05:36 PM
Gil's got it. So that I don't have to cut the HSS rods to size I drill the hole in the end of the boring bar to be about 1/2" shorter than the cutters over all length.

hughie
28th May 2006, 09:59 PM
1. Will mild steel do for the rod?
2. How deep should the tip be embedded?
3. Any tips on how to round off the rod where it will meet the tip?


Ern, Gil pretty well has it covered. The only thing different I have done was to drill the set screw/grub screw hole right through. Invariably at some time the tapped hole will be come damaged and you can then use the underside one. Also if you wish it will provide a left hand tip, although I am not so sure how useful that might be.
A low cost source of HSS tips can be broken taps. They are made form fairly high quality HSS. But if your buying 5/16 round HSS try for, if available M2 or Cobalt variety [not to be confused with actual cobalt steel] . This is as good as, if not better than the Hamlet 2060 top of the range gouges.
hughie

Gil Jones
29th May 2006, 01:43 AM
Toolin is right; my end hole is deep enough to use bits that I grind on both ends (just flip them around and keep on boring; another reason not to use a CA setscrew).
I like Hughie's idea with the setscrew hole, and will be easier to drill out in one stroke).

Hickory
29th May 2006, 02:24 AM
I have a box full of cutting bits left over from my life as a machinist (very short lived life) and every thime I run across them I think I should be able to make a bit holder and use them with the wood lathe. But alas, I can't figure an easy mounting device.

hughie
29th May 2006, 11:37 AM
I have a box full of cutting bits left over from my life as a machinist (very short lived life) and every time I run across them I think I should be able to make a bit holder and use them with the wood lathe. But alas, I can't figure an easy mounting device.


Hickory, What sort of tool bits do you have? Tungsten carbide, HSS etc? Your quite welcome to have a look over my efforts.

I have made quite a few for myself, some work real well, others, well just made it to the bin.:( If nothing else I can steer you away from my less successful attempts :D

hughie

CameronPotter
29th May 2006, 11:49 AM
I'd be interested Hughie...

I got myself a heap of metal lathe bits in an auction with this is mind...

Cam

rsser
29th May 2006, 05:29 PM
Thanks for the good oil folks.

I was thinking of having a different bit in each end of the rod and using my Munro Hollowing tool handle.

One of the ideas I want to knock off - or rather, respectfully imitate - is the Soren Berger hollowing tool which I saw Guilio M demo on the weekend. Ripped a lot of material out quickly. See http://www.berger.co.nz/showitem.php?item_id=27

hughie
29th May 2006, 11:09 PM
.



One of the ideas I want to knock off - or rather, respectfully imitate - is the Soren Berger hollowing tool which I saw Guilio M demo on the weekend. Ripped a lot of material out quickly.


Ern, Its not to difficult, I used a piece of 10mm HHS round bar. The only thing that struck me was that the way its shaped it will have a limited life, its not conducive to many sharpenings.
Failing that you can buy the tip for I think $30 or so . But then you would miss all the fun of making your own....;)

hughie

hughie
29th May 2006, 11:29 PM
I got myself a heap of metal lathe bits in an auction with this is mind...


Cameron,

No worries I will get some pics up. But basically I silver solder the tungsten tips to a piece of 1/2" sq ms bar and then grind the shape. The unfortunate thing is that you can not get real good edge on TC as its has a course grain structure. I have a broken cobalt tap of which I am going to have a go at some time.
The best edge I have managed on a home made 3/8 or 10mm gouge was out of silver steel. It can be hardened and tempered with a blow torch and quenched in water.
I reckon a piece of cake to a man of your capabilities.
It does not have the life of HSS, but the edge is like razor :eek: . On green timber its a real cut throat gouge :D

What sort of tips/tool did you pick up?

hughie

TTIT
29th May 2006, 11:45 PM
.
Ern, Its not to difficult, I used a piece of 10mm HHS round bar. The only thing that struck me was that the way its shaped it will have a limited life, its not conducive to many sharpenings.
Failing that you can buy the tip for I think $30 or so . But then you would miss all the fun of making your own....;)

hughie
Bugger - another project to add to the ever expanding list!!!:(;) That's a new one on me - has anyone tried that Soren Berger thing???:confused::confused::confused:

CameronPotter
30th May 2006, 10:33 AM
To tell you the truth Hughie - I wouldn't have a clue. I haven't actually even really looked at them much since the auction. There were 3 boxes (about the size of smallish cigarette boxes) that were full of the tips. They cost $10. I couldn't say no... :rolleyes:

By silver steel - I assume you mean 01? Very good knife steel that, but you can actually improve its characterisitics by freezing it for a few days.

Cam

OGYT
30th May 2006, 10:43 AM
I've made some tools, sort of like Gil talks about. I use the square HSS tool bits, just because I don't have to have a jig to hold them steady when I sharpen them. I hold them flat on the tilted table of my little belt sander.
Some of my bit-mounting holes weren't drilled deep enough, and consequently, when the bits are knew, they stick out too far, requiring the tool rest to be further away from the piece. I think it's best to do like Toolin' Around says, and leave about 1/2 inch sticking out. On a 2 1/2 inch tool bit, that means the hole should be about 2 inches. (You down-under dudes can do the conversion to mm's :o)) You can easily pull out a little more when you need it. :o)
OGYT

hughie
30th May 2006, 11:38 AM
auction. There were 3 boxes (about the size of smallish cigarette boxes) that were full of the tips. They cost $10. I couldn't say no... :rolleyes:

By silver steel - I assume you mean 01? Very good knife steel that, but you can actually improve its characteristics by freezing it for a few days.


Cameron,

$10 what bargain, if they are tungsten tips you will have to silver solder them. Some may have fixing holes in the centre, these are the most ideal for obvious reasons. I have seen HSS brazed or silver soldered to ms bar to form boring bars. It appears to work just fine as well.

Freezing? prior to heat treatment or after? what sort of improvent are we likely to see? I ask as I am not familar with the process.

Silver steel, yep you got it, it takes real fine edge. I forgot your a knife maker. I started out many years ago making knives.

But in the meantime acquired a wife, kids,a dog, cats and a mortgage and some how knives got left behind:D .

I use the standard round lengths of around 1m in length. Readily available from Blackwoods etc.
hughie

CameronPotter
30th May 2006, 11:55 AM
Yeah, I was pretty happy, but now I need to figure out how to use them.

I was actually thinking of using a grubscrew into a rod style arrangement instead of soldering them onto MS. However, I am open to doing either. I just don't know much about tungsten (i.e. will silver soldering it wreck the temper - if so, how to do re-harden tungsten)?

I haven't made a knife for a while, but I do intend on doing so again - if I get time... :rolleyes:

The freezing is a technique that turned up a few years ago on a lot of forums. I can't remember the exact details. I think that it goes something like:

harden
temper
freeze
temper
freeze
temper

I think that it helps with grain reduction (making for an even better edge that should have the advantage of being less brittle (thus staying sharper longer).

However, I would need to do a search to confirm this.

Cam

hughie
30th May 2006, 12:34 PM
I was actually thinking of using a grubscrew into a rod style arrangement instead of soldering them onto MS. However, I am open to doing either. I just don't know much about tungsten (i.e. will silver soldering it wreck the temper - if so, how to do re-harden tungsten)?



Cameron

Thanks for that. Tungsten, dont worry about the temper. The method of silver soldering is/was the standard method of manufacture for tip tools prior to all the advancments of throw away tips.
Grub screws; I reckon your right, this is the way to go. But you wont be drilling too many holes in the tungsten bits :D But with a bit of luck you have some with the fixing hole cast in them. As I understand it these tips are all cast due to the finished hardness.
The pics are my efforts to date with tip tools.As I have a limited supply they are all triangular in shape.Not really ideal for what I want to do
The hook shape has a piece of HSS but I can place other tips on it as well

CameronPotter
30th May 2006, 12:41 PM
Thanks for that Hughie.

I will see what I can do and I will psot piccies when I have done it. Maybe once I set these up properly, I will give TTIT's idea of brass in wood a go.

Cam

Gil Jones
30th May 2006, 12:50 PM
I also read of freezing HSS after tempering, but the process used liquid nitrogen.

CameronPotter
30th May 2006, 12:58 PM
I think that is the hi tech. way to do it. Also, I think that is required for some of the higher tech steels such as ATS34 etc. But I think that O1 can get a slight improvement by just using a normal freezer overnight.

I checked on this and yes, I found a number of sources (whom I respect - e.g. Ed Fowler) who suggest that edge retention can be improved by including even a normal freezer in the heat treat cycle.

I also remember now that some people say, put it in the freezer right after hardening, others say temper it first then finally freeze it.

I decided that tempering relieves stresses, so it is better to temper once, then freeze, then temper, then freeze, then temper. It made sense to me at least.

Cam

rsser
30th May 2006, 06:06 PM
Can we back up a bit here?

What's silver soldering?

Any relation to doing downpipe joins in gal with triangular solder bar, acid flux and blowtorch-driven iron? (Hope so ... got all those from way back when :) )

CameronPotter
30th May 2006, 06:11 PM
Kinda, but no.

Silver soldering (sometimes called silver brazing) is a process where you use a high silver content alloy to join the two pieces of metal together almost on a molecular level.

You can use normal gas torches (i.e. LPG) and I do, but the solder you need is a lot different to the trangular solder bar and the flux is likely to be a bit different too.

Any further questions? Please let me know.

rsser
30th May 2006, 06:18 PM
Ah, OK. Thanks Cam.

Back to CA methinks.

CameronPotter
31st May 2006, 10:53 AM
If you can do the other soldering, you can do this - it just takes more heat.



Also, I checked my metal bits, some don't have a dimple, some do, some even have a hole going all the way through.

I REALLY have to spend some time making tools... :D

Cam

hughie
31st May 2006, 12:58 PM
Can we back up a bit here?

What's silver soldering?


Ern have alook at the links a bit more info on silver soldering
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=shop&file=articles_186.shtml

http://www.wrcs.org.au/articles/31.htm

http://www.artmetal.com/enrique/wrought/architectural/railings/jessie/catail.htm

hughie

Gil Jones
31st May 2006, 01:10 PM
Cam, part of your last post was very poetic, well done!

Ern, you can do silver solder. Are Mapp gas hand torch sets available in OZ? Like the hand propane sets, only colored yellow.

rsser
31st May 2006, 02:01 PM
Ern, you can do silver solder. Are Mapp gas hand torch sets available in OZ? Like the hand propane sets, only colored yellow.

Don't know Gil. And the terms have changed a bit I think since I last soldered galvanised iron downpipes.

I have what used to be called an LPG blowtorch, fitted with a great pointed lump of copper colored metal of some kind. I'd flux the surfaces of the pipes, warm them a little with the soldering iron, melt on some solder to each face, and the bring the faces together with more contact from the iron to make the bond.

[Edit: thanks for those sites hughie. Where do you buy the solder and flux?]

CameronPotter
31st May 2006, 04:47 PM
I buy mine from jewellery supply places, but I think that you can get it at wleding stores too.

I would use "easy" silver solder and argotech flux.

We do have MAPP gas, but it isn't necessary.

As for the poetry - aren't all my posts like music to the ears?!? ;) :p

jmk89
31st May 2006, 05:33 PM
As for the poetry - aren't all my posts like music to the ears?!? ;) :p
But poetry is music to the soul!! and a balm to the spirit

Whatever, I always like reading your posts, Cam.

Jeremy

CameronPotter
31st May 2006, 05:46 PM
But poetry is music to the soul!! and a balm to the spirit

Whatever, I always like reading your posts, Cam.

Jeremy

Music to the soul. That is what I meant... :D

Anyway, enough of this - you're making me blush. :o

Cam

rsser
31st May 2006, 08:21 PM
Got the bits today and started in on the job.

5/16" x 8" M2 HSS, $26

2 off 5/8" x 30cm mild steel rods $4

drill press vice, $15

experience of drilling rods, priceless!

grrr

Toggy
31st May 2006, 09:02 PM
There's alway the bandsaw joining silver solder & flux that Carbatec advertise. Used with a small propane torch.

I believe that bright mild steel shafting is a better alternative for the shafts. Precision ground to size and a better grade of steel.

Shaft?? lock by Loctite is very good for joining a cutting end to the shaft. This stuff will hold a gear to the shaft when the keyway is damaged and needs something like red heat to break the bond.

What about using gudgeon pins from small motors for gouge ends. Just reshape them with an angle grinder and cutting wheel. Turn the end of your shaft down to go into the pin then Loctite it in. 16mm (5/8") is about right for the shaft.


Ken

hughie
1st June 2006, 01:35 AM
What about using gudgeon pins from small motors for gouge ends. Just reshape them with an angle grinder and cutting wheel. Turn the end of your shaft down to go into the pin then Loctite it in. 16mm (5/8") is about right for the shaft.



5/16" x 8" M2 HSS

Ern, 5/16 X 8 now thats a decent bit of tool steel it'll be a while before you grind that one away. :D Plenty to play with for the berger tool as well.

Loctite will work well but it works best with reasonably tight tolerances. Never the less a good idea as it will melt with heat.Read some where that R.Raffan fixes his gouges that way to the handles
Gudgeon pins, another good idea Ken. Dunno what sort of steel or its wear characteristics are but its worth a try.

hughie

rsser
1st June 2006, 11:52 AM
Hughie,

8" was the smallest length they had. So yep, will be playing around with a Berger shape as well as an Oland one.

There's now a superglue with some kind of antishatter formula that I'll give a try, sposed to be good for metals.

The rods turned out to be bright steel, but too tight so they're taking a bit of grinding and sanding down.

Next step is to shape the Berger style tip with the raised end. Any ideas?

Was wondering about one of those drop saw type mounts for the angle grinder but would need to make up a stop to get an even depth of grind on the main surface and see if the shoulder of the wheel would form the rising tip.

Gudgeons might do a good roughing gouge but the profile of the flute might not do too well for a bowl gouge.

CameronPotter
1st June 2006, 11:59 AM
Ok, you machinist types are beyond me now... Can you post a link to a site where I can read more about the various style tips?

Cam

rsser
1st June 2006, 12:07 PM
Cam there's a link in one of my posts above to the Berger site.

Do a google on Oland tools. It's basically a scraper shaped from rod with a round nose and a steepish bevel. On medium woods with a good burr I'm told you can rub the bevel and cut with it. Vic Wood used to do this with a wide 'scraper' when shaping the wings of his big 'bowls'.

Gil Jones
1st June 2006, 12:23 PM
If you are determined to use CA for a set screw, get "black CA", it is flexible, compared to the brittle stuff we generally use. http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/11610

hughie
1st June 2006, 02:16 PM
Next step is to shape the Berger style tip with the raised end. Any ideas?


Ern,

As I have a 6x3/4" grinding wheel it was not to hard. I held the tool steel at 45' to the wheel and ground a groove in the side of the tool bit about 3mm deep the full width of the wheel . Leaving the chararistic pip at the end. Will try and get some pics to illustrate what I mean.

I agree with the gudgeon pin comment and most likely the wear characterictics would be bad.

hughie

rsser
1st June 2006, 06:35 PM
Hi Gil,

thanks; that matches the description of the stuff I was talking about.

I'm told that a CA bond can be broken if you heat it up; so that if correct gives the replacement option. I decided not to use set screws since too much more gear has to be bought, and my bench press isn't the best.

Thanks Hughie ... my wheels are an inch wide so that's a bit much. Maybe an alternative is a quality small cylindrical grind wheel mounted in the chuck on the lathe, with a flat table underneath (which I have).

btw, found the best option for knocking some diam. off the mounting rods was a belt sander in a cradle.

rsser
2nd June 2006, 05:47 PM
Well here's the first effort at a Berger shaped tip.

Used a metal cut-off wheel in the Triton saw bench to cut the 'trench'. Set depth at half the tip diameter - that was a bit too deep.

Shaped the rising tip with a small grind wheel in a Jacob's chuck on the lathe, resting the tip on a flat top rest I use for hollowing. That was slow going and hard to get accurate. You can see from the photo a remaining mark from the cut-off wheel.

The shoulder of the mounting rod may prove to be too wide, and certainly the tip of the bit needs a bit of reducing with a better arc on the 'near side' edge.

The shockproof CA needs 48 hours to cure so no road test as yet.

It would have been a lot easier just to buy a tip but not as much fun :D

CameronPotter
2nd June 2006, 05:52 PM
Keen to hear how it goes...

Skew ChiDAMN!!
2nd June 2006, 07:45 PM
Seconded! A blow by blow account preferred, an overall summary is acceptable. Barely. ;) Having never used a berger style tip of any sort, the whole thing has me wondering...

The tool's looking good, especially considering the scale you're working in. I assume the tip is recesed into the handle? How far?

rsser
2nd June 2006, 08:09 PM
Thanks Skew. Will post road test results as soon as I can. Never used one like it before myself! But did have a chance once to work on an enclosed form with Kelton hollowers. Hard work and took more skill than I had.

Tip sunk into shaft 35mm. Should be a b*gger to get out ;-}

Apparently the only real point of the raised tip is to help eject chips.

CameronPotter
2nd June 2006, 08:18 PM
Apparently the only real point of the raised tip is to help eject chips.

But other than the raised tip it would just be a scraper wouldn't it?

As for recessing the tip... I have a lot of square tips I want to use... How on earth am I going to manage to seat those nicely?

Skew ChiDAMN!!
2nd June 2006, 08:26 PM
Cameron, drill a round hole, just a mm or so undersized. Position bit, mark where corners sit on hole, then use a small square or triangular file to nibble suitable grooves inside bore. Soldering would work, but this method is best suited to grub screws.

Works for me. :)


Tip sunk into shaft 35mm. Should be a b*gger to get out ;-}

Apparently the only real point of the raised tip is to help eject chips.

It'd also give more of a slicing than a scraping action, wouldn't it? Or is it used more to the side than the tip?

Once the tip is ground back too short to be resharpened, it'll also be too short to easily grab to desolder/replace. :eek: If you use it a lot, I guess you'll soon become proficient at making them. :D With 35mm depth, I'm almost surprised you didn't go for the grub-screw method. But it'd want to be a bloody small grub in that handle... and a steady hand on the drill.

rsser
3rd June 2006, 07:10 AM
Having only seen it used from the back of a room, I'm guessing that yes, it would be slicing and mainly on the side. That will make for some twisting forces and a grub screw may not hold it. The original appears to be glued in.

Good point Skew about leaving some meat in order to pull it out.

I'll do another one today making it thicker and embedding it to about an inch. I'm guessing yesterday's effort is too thin and will flex or worse.

CameronPotter
3rd June 2006, 07:33 AM
Cameron, drill a round hole, just a mm or so undersized. Position bit, mark where corners sit on hole, then use a small square or triangular file to nibble suitable grooves inside bore. Soldering would work, but this method is best suited to grub screws.

Excuse me while I go and berate myself for being a dill... :o I was thinking that the entire hole had to be square, but of course only the amount you stick the tip in has to be...

Oh, and Ern - are you always up at this time on a Saturday?

rsser
3rd June 2006, 10:34 AM
Hey Cam,

Yep! Like to beat the hordes to the market and supermarket.

And you?

CameronPotter
3rd June 2006, 11:22 AM
I was up at 4:30 today (but it was only because I was dropping my girlfriend off at the airport). :cool:

I love BEING up early (I have just done a lot of work on my thesis and it is now almost as good as done), but I hate GETTING up early...

Hmmm... Maybe I just have to get used to it.

rsser
3rd June 2006, 12:24 PM
As a high school kid I did a morning paper round which laid down a program for the old biological clock. Then when the kids were young I did all the night-time getting up. So these days a just takes a frog to croak in the next suburb and I'm awake.

So, you're in training to be doctored are you (or mastered) ? ;)

The 80's was my decade of the thesis :(

rsser
4th June 2006, 07:24 PM
Road test of the Berger knock-off:

Nice slicing cuts from centre outwards on a small bowl. Working the nearside shoulder at about 10.30 o'clock.

Couple of passes. Result a lot cleaner than coming the other way with a bowl gouge.

Then got a dig with the top of the tip and pulled the bowl out of the chuck.

I said I'd need to grind the tip back but gave it a go anyway. Have now ground it back but will wait for a piece I can afford to trash before a second outing.

Skew ChiDAMN!!
4th June 2006, 08:54 PM
Ah, yes. It's always an interesting experience working out the limitations of a "new" tool. :)

Hope the bowl was recoverable?

CameronPotter
5th June 2006, 10:57 AM
So, you're in training to be doctored are you (or mastered) ? ;)


Being doctored (hopefully).

Shame about the bowl result, but glad to hear the first cuts worked nicely.

rsser
5th June 2006, 11:53 AM
Thanks guys. If the bowl's recoverable it will have a very thin wall!

Having blown up the photo of the Berger tool from his site, I can see clearly where I've gone wrong. The sides are just about vertical and the rising tip looks like it is actually angled back, not forward. Long winded way of saying don't use my photos above as a model!

Next step I think is to shape a tip without the rise at the front and learn how to use it. Then try again.

Cam, what's your field?

CameronPotter
5th June 2006, 11:57 AM
Next step I think is to shape a tip without the rise at the front and learn how to use it. Then try again.


Won't that just be a normal scraper then? Maybe I am missing something.

My field of research is using artificially intelligent techniques to perform very short-term forecasting for windpower purposes.

Cam

rsser
5th June 2006, 12:28 PM
Maybe I am too Cam. Working in the dark here without having seen how it's meant to be used. But if the side rubs, then clearly it's not a scraper. If it doesn't I guess it is and the advantage must lie in its shape.

[Edit: pic below. Tried to make it larger than what's on the website]

CameronPotter
5th June 2006, 12:32 PM
Maybe it works as a cutter, but in reverse? i.e. By having a reverse bevel, you hold it down like a scraper and the pointy lip bit does the cutting?

rsser
5th June 2006, 12:34 PM
Could be. Tho Guilio Marcolongo reckons the tip is only there to spit back chips.

Mine was potent enough to spit back the whole bowl :(

TTIT
5th June 2006, 12:37 PM
I reckon you would use the tip as you would a ring-cutter - laying at about 45deg as you move out from centre then roll it back to upright as you come up the side with a bit of bevel rubbbing :) :confused: :D - sounds good anyway!

CameronPotter
5th June 2006, 12:40 PM
Tho Guilio Marcolongo reckons the tip is only there to spit back chips.

Yeah, but sometimes people do something thinking, "ahh that will be useful because of X" and it actually has another function entirely... Maybe not too.

Cam

hughie
5th June 2006, 01:23 PM
I reckon you would use the tip as you would a ring-cutter - laying at about 45deg as you move out from centre then roll it back to upright as you come up the side with a bit of bevel rubbbing :) :confused: :D - sounds good anyway


Sounds the way to go to me . I got the package ok thanks

hughie

rsser
5th June 2006, 03:00 PM
Could be.

Any case, Guilio got his direct from Soren Berger in UnZud and I'd be guessing he discussed its uses before he shelled out his readies.

Will play around with shapes a bit more tho I'm running out of puff, and HSS rod. Now have somewhat more interest in the technique of fixing the tips with grub screws ;-}

CameronPotter
5th June 2006, 03:05 PM
Yeah, but we really appreciate you being our guinea pig... ;) (Or maybe it has more to do with you being motivated) :o

:D

Cam

rsser
5th June 2006, 03:24 PM
Thanks Cam.

If I were your supervisor, I'd be saying .... well you can imagine ;-}

When I wanted to, ahem, defer, thesis work way back when I'd do some coding on a computer program to help with data analysis.

(Hope you take this in the spirit in which it's intended; have supervised a bunch of PhDs. But yes, a balance of obsessions is good :D )

CameronPotter
5th June 2006, 03:35 PM
:D Yeah, yeah... I know... :o

However, I promise - I am a good boy. I usually make up for it by starting early and ending late. :)

Skew ChiDAMN!!
5th June 2006, 11:34 PM
Will play around with shapes a bit more tho I'm running out of puff, and HSS rod. Now have somewhat more interest in the technique of fixing the tips with grub screws ;-}

Now who would've guessed? ;) :D

Looking at the pix you posted, I'm inclined to believe that the left side of the tip is intended to be the cutting edge. The back end of the rebate, where it reverts to circular stock, appears to be cut at an angle... more complicated to machine in the first place and pointless if the tip was intended to do the cutting.

I'm guessing it's machined like that to improve clearance, because the shavings are intended to flow across at a similar angle. Besides, the bevels look wrong for anything else!

Hmmm... I wonder if anyone I know around here has one they'd let me play with? (Danger: curiosity peaking, knowledge level zero. :D)

rsser
6th June 2006, 08:50 AM
Yeah, I logged onto the Berger site to order a tip only to find the prices were in USD. So $40 plus P&H. Ouch.

rsser
7th June 2006, 09:41 PM
Reground the cutter - square end at the tip and slightly beveled down the side.

Used as a scraper - p*ss poor result on huon, even worse in shear scraper mode.

CameronPotter
8th June 2006, 11:33 AM
Damn! :(

rsser
8th June 2006, 07:54 PM
Having developed an obsession about this, I fear I'll have to shell out the $$ and get an original, and have a play. Skew is prob in the right with his assessment of where it should be cutting, so the critical thing will be the bevel and the presentation... actually, not much else is there :o

Skew ChiDAMN!!
8th June 2006, 09:45 PM
It's a bit of a steep price to assuage your curiosity (that's just for the tip? :eek: ) but I've asked around our club and no-one here has used one, let alone have one I can play with. :(

It doesn't take much deviation from spec to make most tools fairly useless, although some are more finicky than others. For that price range, I'd be peeved if 'twas one of the latter!

rsser
8th June 2006, 10:02 PM
Ah well, what price obsession?

Edit: well it ain't the tip is it? It's learning how the phreaking thing works!

FWIW .. pics below. 1st one salvaged from the dig; 2nd was the experimental piece with a crack running right through it, but I got a rim treatment that I really liked ... damn, damn, damn.

btw ... what do you call that ripple figure running thru at right angles to the grain?

arose62
8th June 2006, 10:15 PM
Hey rsser,

just read through this thread, so apologies if my question has been raised already.

Looking at the pics, the one difference I noted between yours and the store's was that your tip had the trench going across the long axis of the tool at 90 degrees, whereas the $$ one looked to me like the trench was at about 45 degrees.

This would give the tip a raised right wing (looking from the handle), whereas your grind looked like a symmetrical hump in the middle. The asymmetric one would present more of a slicing edge, I think.

(My qualifications are that I made an awl by spinning a concrete nail against a grinder;) )

I'm with you in spirit!

Cheers,
Andrew

rsser
8th June 2006, 10:35 PM
Yeah, you're quite right Andrew ... and the 'sweet spot' might just lie on that asymmetric arc .. depending on the bevel at that point.

rodent
10th June 2006, 03:28 AM
what size bit hicory a 3/8 bit will fit into the imperial 1/2 tube then glue in some3/8 mild steel bar leaving enough for the bit 2 in say drill 1/4 inch hole braze on 1/4 nut 1 grubscrew and away you go

rsser
17th June 2006, 07:51 PM
Well FWIW, removed one of the bits easily with 2 mins worth of blowtorch.

Granted, not as elegant as Gil's set screws, but it works.

Used btw Selley's shockproof superglue. Supposed to soften over 150 degrees C.

Now waiting on one of Soren Berger's bits and will post the results.

Skew ChiDAMN!!
17th June 2006, 10:36 PM
Just being curious, if you find the Berger tip works well, do you think you'd retry profiling your own?

rsser
18th June 2006, 08:59 AM
Definitely. Got the bits and pieces.

Ironically my first effort looks v. like his end-grain cutting tip (Viking I think its called).

rsser
24th June 2006, 05:11 PM
What follows was posted on the Stubby newsgroup ... for your amusement. It comes from a metalwork group originally... (posted in two segments due to length).

Machines are Gods.

Ive noticed a distinct pattern among different personality types on this
newsgroup...<WBR>lets see if I can express this pattern.

Type 1. The Dreamers

This group is constantly talkign about machines, but seldom ever
actually get one. They talk, not look. They ponder the good and the bad,
discussing the various aspects of their gods, always dreaming about
the One True Machine, but no matter how many machines are offered to
them..they are always are talking something better, never content to
simply get the best they can Now..and learn to use it, while continuing
to look for something better, no matter that they can sell their current
one and get their dream machine next week, or next month or next
year..but missing out Today on learning and using. I cant figure out if
they want a machine handed to them on a silver platter, or they are
really interested in simply talking about machines and not actually
DOING something with a machine.

Type 2. Tire kickers.

Tire Kickers are a subgroup of the Dreamers. They actually get off
their asses and look for machines. But like the Dreamers..they seldom
actually get one. No matter how many usable machines are offered up to
them..they always have an excuse to not get one. Its too far, its too
dirty, its ugly. Its one thing to pass on a hammered piece of ####..but
to pass on a machine that takes a bit of effort to go and get, or whle
its capable of holding tolerence..its ugly and so forth..is buffonery.
You either want one, or you dont. If you dont..why do you bother going
and looking and then passing up a machine that you can actually DO
something on? Like the Dreamers..they forget that machines can be
bought and sold as a better one comes along but in the mean time..its a
user. Life is short. If you pass up a perfectly good machine..you may be
hit by a bus load of nuns before you torment yourself into actually
getting one. Its a bitch trying to turn cranks from a wheel chair or a
walker as Alzheimers makes you forget what you were trying to do.

If she is a bit homely, a little tired and a little old..but is a cheap
date and will #### your brains out..are you gonna pass it up?

Type 3. Cheapistanis.

Look yall..lets face it..not everyone can find machines for free or near
free. Location location location and effort effort effort MAY get you a
cheap machine. Maybe. Sometimes.
If you are unlucky enough to not live in the Rust Belt or be a Natural
Born Scrounger..a machine worth doing something with, is gonna cost you.
It may not be much..but it will cost something. The more pretty and
"accurate" it is..the more money its gonna cost. You have to decide if
pretty or "accurate" is more important than Usable when digging into
your piggy bank. Yes..a pretty and accurate machine is a joy to use. But
you pay for the pleasure. Either #### or get off the pot. Do you want a
machine or not? Some of you have been pissing and moaning about not
finding any machines, and the next day or the next week someone offers
up one..and yall dont even bother to get the details. Not unless its
free, or damned close to it.

Type 4. Beverly Hills Machinists.

This is the type of person that will not take anything other than the
best. Its got to be mint, dressed up like a fancy lady. I suspect this
type has a trophy wife or girlfriend, drives a fancy car and brags to
his buds about how hip slick and cool his toys are. But
unfortunately.<WBR>...its sad how little they actually use em. They spend
their time waxing and polishing and doing plastic surgery and making the
old bitch into a sweet young thing..no matter that its still an old lady
under all that bondo and paint. Long discussions on the most best trendy
paint, best place to have ways ground (and screech in dismay at the
cost).
There are loads of machine tools out there. But there hasnt been a US
manufactured manual machine made in at least 20yrs for the most
part..and they were used mostly in production..<WBR>run by men and women who
were tasked with running it to its maximum capacity, day in and day out.
Or hammered by newbies in schools and colleges. The 100 hr Instructors
machine that was hidden in a secret room in the neither regions at the
back of the campus and only used during alternate full moons are out
there. But they are damned rare.
Ive seen some "restored" machines done by hobbiests. They generally tend
to be like our aging lady..looks good from a distance..but when you get
up close..the old bitch is sagging, lumpy and looks like a worn out
painted whore. If they had simply been cleaned up and used..they would
at least have charector, and not have been a huge hole in the restorers
time, time best spent in actually using the beasty.
If you want a status symbol..buy a 'Vett and a big watch. Maybe grow a
pony tail and get a young chick to hang on your arm. A machine tool is
exactly that..a tool. You are either a machine user..or a machine
restorer..and most hobbiests dont have a clue how to actually rebuild
one..or know how much work there is in doing a decent job. Ever see an
invoice on a professionally rebuilt machine? Its not much less than a
new one. If your hobby is restoring machines..all the power to you. If
you want one to actually use...shrug.

Type 5. The Pragmatic Builder

The Pragmatic Builder is a interesting type. He wants to Built Stuff.
His goal is to make things, repair things, or make chips while he is
learning how to Build Stuff. His hobby is making Things. Machine tools,
while interesting, are simply a means to an end. He looks for the best
machine he can afford that will do the job. He learns his machines
weaknesses..<WBR>and learns to work around them as he Builds Stuff.
Cosmetics, while nice..are secondary to the use of each machine. As he
progresses and advances..he will be keeping an eye out for something
beter that may come along..but the machine itself is NOT his goal..but
simply a tool. He may tweak the machine a bit to make his task easier,
enable him to be more accurate, but his hobby is not rebuilding
machines, but to actually use them to Build Stuff.

Type 6. The High Priests

High Priests are a combination of Beverly Hills Machinists and Dreamers.
They argue about which machine is Da Best. The Machine is God..and all
machines besides their own gods are inferior. Old Gods are #### They
often dont have a clue why one god is better than another. And are often
wrong. Fundimentalist Machine Snobs. They often hear that one machine
is better than another..and once they get their minds made up..they will
buy even #### machines that look nice or have a certain name on it..no
matter how clapped out it may be. OOOH..I gotta have a Hardinge! And
they get one...one with more swayback than an elderly mare..but its A
Hardinge! Glory Be! Pass the tooling! And they often wonder why they
have chatter, or cant hold tolerances better than a couple thousands. It
cant be the machine..its a Hardinge!!!
Liz Taylor was a famous beauty in her prime. No matter how good her
make up artist made her look this morning..do you really want to bone
her today?
Do you want a machine that will do the job, or do you want a status
symbol to brag on? Yes..it may have some surface rust and maybe it wont
hold small tenths..but how often are you going to be needing small
tenths? Ill tell you. maybe a couple times in your life. Maybe. Unless
you are a Builder who makes watches or jet engines.

rsser
24th June 2006, 05:14 PM
Type 7. The Optimist

The optimist is a fellow who got a machine, or wants a particular
machine, that is simply not capable of doing good work, even in the
hands of a master machinist, and wants to build chronographs with it.
These types generally..not always..but generally are newbies. They
inherited Grandpas clapped out piece of #### that was sitting in a barn
for the last 50 yrs because no one else wanted it..or they buy a
"project" lathe, 7x12 import or a AA 101 and expect it to hold small
tenths and know deep in their hearts that if they only ask the same
questions time and again..someone will pull a miracle out of their ass
and give them the Secret of the Ages that will transform a slug into a
Swiss tool room machine. The newbies can be forgiven, simply because
they are new. Unfortunately there are far too many adults who should
know better, are given the heads up..both in experience and in
information.<WBR>.that still believe that persistance will make fix all.
Optimism is marvelous. But you Optimists are way overdue for a reality
check. Some of you get one..and are so disappointed that they never
pursue the hobby any farther. Which is a damned shame.
Now if its your Goal to take a garden slug and see if you can make a
Swiss toolroom lathe out of it..then you are not an Optimist..but a
Builder and kudos to you. Be sure to put up a website and post your
results.

Type 8 The Collector

The collector is a fellow who collects machines. They may be missing
parts that havent been available for 70 yrs..but he saw it, he wanted
it..he dragged it home. He will have a bunch of busted machines waiting
for him to get A Roundtuit and his next of kin ultimately wind up
cursing his name as they try to get a scrapper to come get them and find
out that they have to pay to have them hauled off. The collector often
has a half hundred other unfinished projects around the shop as well,
all collecting dust. The Collector tends to be impulsive and has more
than a touch of ADD. He also tends to be depressed when in the shop..as
he looks around at all the unfinished stuff..and all the busted machines
taking up space. If you actually fix them..and do Stuff with them..then
you are a Pragmatic Builder. Bravo. We shall erect a shrine to you for
rescuing all those helpless classics from the melting pot. If you have
a bunch of busted machines collecting dust, you likely also have at
least a couple trucks/cars outback on blocks. You are also incapable of
throwing anything away. Bent cotter pins, rusty bolts, worn out
automotive belts.... Trust me..Im intimate with the symptoms.

A machine tool may be different things to different people. A God, a
tool, a status symbol or Hope. Just be honest with yourself as to who
and what you are.

Ive been fascinated by the lack of machine tool dealers posting machines
for sale. Only a few do..and then rarely. Ive asked many of them why
they dont offer up more machines, and universally.<WBR>.they have told me
that its a waste of time. Even when priced for scrap..decent machines
go unsold, or no one even bothers to contact them. Yet the thread pops
up every month or so, about the lack of decent machines.

Ive found or checked out Good machines. Ive either posted on them, or
have seen machines posted by others..and no one ever buys one.
"Its too far, or I cant see it, or it needs paint yada yada yada"

If you want a machine..several things to consider. How much Total are
you willing to spend? How much will shipping be? Ive seen machines
offerd dirt cheap, damned good machines, that even with the cost of
having it shipped to Bum#### PA, its still a hell of a lot cheaper than
finding one thats not clapped out localy..yet no one bothers to even
inquire.

The recent post by MarMachine on the bulk deal he is working out is a
perfectly good example. Id be surprised as hell if a single person here
even bothered to email him for details. God knows Ive slowed up on
posting decent machines on RCM..I think Ive had only one or 2 buyers
over the years from this newsgroup.

Wazzamatter with yall? A heads up. When I broker a machine tool to a
commercial customer..I get at least 10% right off the top. When I broker
a machine tool to RCM folks..I do it for free to keep the sellers price
down. And yet few even bother to contact the seller.
"If thy pride is sorely vexed when others disparage your offering, be
as lamb's wool is to cold rain and the Gore-tex of Odin's raiment
is to gull#### in the gale, for thy angst shall vex them not at
all. Yea, they shall scorn thee all the more. Rejoice in
sharing what you have to share without expectation of adoration,
knowing that sharing your treasure does not diminish your treasure
but enriches it."

- Onni 1:33

Skew ChiDAMN!!
24th June 2006, 08:47 PM
Hmmm... so I'd be an 8 with distinct 7 tendencies, aspiring to be a 5? Don't know that I'd want to move any further up the list than that... :D

scooter
25th June 2006, 06:13 PM
Good post Ern, I reckon it'd be great posted in it's own thread, I imagine a lot of forumites aren't following this long specialised thread but would enjoy that post.


Cheers mate..................Sean

rsser
5th July 2006, 09:00 PM
Continuing with the tool-making.

Tell me to shut up if this is boring you.

Have just done a knock-off of the <st1>Oland</st1> tool: 3/8" rod, top flattened, scraper style bevel, mounted in mild steel rod to fit into the Munro tool handle.

That's been an order of magnitude harder than working with 5/16 rod. So much more time needed to cut and shape. And despite a vise and drill press the hole in the rod is a sloppy fit. Think I need more than a two-dollar shop vise.

But the real point of the post is this ... I want to make a second round tip scraper. The blank is 1.5" by 3/8" from McJing (must've had one Chinese and one Scots parent). So there's a helluva lot of stock to remove to make the tang and to shape the end.


I've tried a cutting wheel in the 4" grinder - v. slow indeed - and a grind wheel ditto, following 's advice. Also v. slow. (Used a cut-off wheel in the Triton saw table to shape the Oland tip.)



Any tips for speeding things up?

Skew ChiDAMN!!
5th July 2006, 10:46 PM
I've tried a cutting wheel in the 4" grinder - v. slow indeed - and a grind wheel ditto, following 's advice. Also v. slow. (Used a cut-off wheel in the Triton saw table to shape the Oland tip.)

I wonder if a coarse-grit wheel in a 6 or 8" bench grinder would speed things along any?

TTIT
6th July 2006, 12:03 AM
Ern - I find the best way to cut HSS with out generating too much heat is the 1mm thick cut-off wheels in the 4" angle grinder. Very quick and cool compared to normal cut-off wheels. I use them to cut the main shape and then refine on the grinder.:)

rsser
6th July 2006, 09:15 AM
Thanks guys. Will try these out.

[Edit: went to Bunnings; thinnest wheel they had was around 2.5mm. Is this what you meant TTIT or should I be looking further afield? Thanks.]

hughie
6th July 2006, 11:15 AM
Ern - I find the best way to cut HSS with out generating too much heat is the 1mm thick cut-off wheels in the 4" angle grinder. Very quick and cool compared to normal cut-off wheels. I use them to cut the main shape and then refine on the grinder.:)


Ern this is what I use as well, simple and very effective. hughie

TTIT
6th July 2006, 03:02 PM
Thanks guys. Will try these out.

[Edit: went to Bunnings; thinnest wheel they had was around 2.5mm. Is this what you meant TTIT or should I be looking further afield? Thanks.]

Ern - look further afield! They are actually only 1mm thick. Maybe an engineering supplier if the hardware boy's don't have them.

scooter
6th July 2006, 09:33 PM
Bunnings usually has them Ern, obviously with the other angle grinder discs.

I think they are branded "inox" or somesuch, they are sold loose and the label is blue & red in colour.


Cheers.................Sean

Bodgy
6th July 2006, 09:55 PM
I go with everyone else, these thin wheels are great for cutting hard steel. I couldn't find one at our Bumblies, asked the attendant, and he showed me where they where. A bit hidden, but close to the other grinding wheels.

rsser
6th July 2006, 10:17 PM
K, thanks guys, will look harder or ask.

Captain Chaos
6th July 2006, 10:51 PM
G'day ern,
The 1mm. cutoff wheels that you are looking for are manufactured by PFERD.
These people make many types of abrasive / grinding products, eg. industrial cut off wheels, rotary burrs etc. It is all top quality stuff & can be purchased from good industrial suppliers ( Blackwoods ) or abrasive supply companies.
If all else fails, do a Google - remember, Google is your fiend! ;):D
Or pm me & I'll get a couple & post them to you.
Regards,
Barry.

hughie
7th July 2006, 01:59 AM
K, thanks guys, will look harder or ask


Ern such places as Total Tools and the like will definitely have them.

hughie

rsser
7th July 2006, 08:58 AM
Thanks all. There's a Totaltools near Bunnings, and an engineering supplies place, so will give them a try.

I did try the 2.5mm wheel and that was slow getting through the 3/8 thickness; then tried grinding but that would wipe out a 60 grit wheel I reckon. Will see about cutting small segments out with the 1mm wheel.

Tiger
11th July 2006, 06:19 PM
Ern,

I would use the 1 mm wheels, the larger Bunnies usually have them. If you still have problems, you can drop your steel off at my place and I will cut it for you if you like.

rsser
11th July 2006, 06:42 PM
Thanks Tiger ... that's very kind of you.

Yeah, I did find them at Bunnies and have worn out three. Wicked wheels. Work better when they or the steel is cold I've found. The profile is finished; just need to mount it in a large handle and refine the cutting edge. I must say I like the smaller version a lot so I have hopes for this lump of a tool.

Did an Oland tool out of 3/8" rod and it's not nearly as successful on softer wood as the 5/16" version. That may be a shape issue; the latter was made by one of the local clubs - can't remember which - and sold at one of Bernie Kyabu's turning days.

Meantime the marathon of replacing the Stubby bearings is over (I hope!). Needed a pilot bearing puller so I took it to my mechanic who managed to trash the seal behind it. Omega sent one out promptly, then the mech managed to break the headstock alloy lid lug when pressing the new bearing in. Then his welder's machine died. Then the whole assembly started squeaking loudly when run for a few minutes so it all had to come apart again to be greased up. Then the new belt was too tight to be able to swap cogs.

Sigh.

Slow6
11th July 2006, 07:33 PM
not the Stubby :(

isn't it heart renching when a beloved machine is in pain.

great thread btw.. only just bothered to read the whole thing through. me thinks I'll be heading down the whole home made tool track all too soon. To buy all the tools in my wish list would take far more than I have :o

I look foreward to further developements :)

rsser
12th July 2006, 07:18 PM
What trying to make more of my own tools has forced me to do is consider more clearly exactly what does what and under what conditions - which has to help with turning as well.

On the other hand Slow6 it can readily become another plug-hole for the folding stuff ... drill press, vice, HSS blanks etc. Next: set of taps, drop saw for metal, better vice ;-}