studios monitors? please explain

[la Huerta]

could someone please enlighten me about studio monitors....

are they only for pa applications?


if no, then would they be good for home theatre?




La H

[silentC]

Studio monitors are what they use as reference speakers in a recording studio. I don't know how they would sound in a home set up but the few times I've been in a studio control room, they sounded OK.

[la Huerta]

i spoke to someone reciently and he uses a pair for music and games, did'nt complain, but i did'nt hear them my self...

i'm assuming they would be very flat sounding, not musical like hi-fi speakers...i'd be using them for home theatre only, no music....

[silentC]

If they are what I'm thinking of, the idea of them is to give the sound engineer a reference for the EQ. There's no point mixing and EQing with top notch speakers because most people wont have them. The monitors were supposedly representative of the average domestic speaker (or maybe they had as flat a response as possible) so that the mix would sound good on everything. There was a particular set that every studio had, can't remember the brand but it might have been Yamaha. Smallish bookshelf size boxes from memory.

One place I spent a fair bit of time in used to play CDs through them when we weren't recording and they sounded OK to me. But then I'm just a drummer ;)

[la Huerta]

so if music or film is mixed using studio monitors, then when we listen to them we should hear it all as it supposed to sound right ? with now colour or tone that we would normally hear through differrent types of hi fi speakers...

[silentC]

Well, I suppose that theoretically, if you had the same speakers it would sound the same as when it was originally mixed, although there are a lot of other variables, including the hifi components, shape and nature of the room etc.

I think the idea is simply to create a sound that is acceptable from a wide range of systems without needing a lot of EQ adjustment, and also to have a degree of consistency across recordings so that you don't have to adjust your system for every album or track.

I read once that ZZ Top mixed an album of theirs through Walkman headphones, because that was their target audience - don't know how true that is.

[HiString]

OK, firstly, virtually every "Hi Fi"/audiophool/surround/consumer style speaker has been for various reasons, designed to "enhance" the sound for it's particular application. Roughly speaking, they are tuned to highlight or supress certain frequencies, etc.

On the other hand, studio monitors are supposed to give a near flat response across the audio frequency range although just how good they really are can depend on a number of things, cost being a prime factor.

La Huerta, did you have any specific speaker in mind?

SilentC, the near fields you referred to would have been Yamaha NS10's, all black with a white speaker cone. They became an almost defacto industry standard, more because of their deficencies rather than the fact that they were fault free..........they were renowned for causing ear fatique and people held the view that if something sounded OK on them then chances were it would be OK on anything ;) .

As far as using monitors for normal home use, it's not unheard of, although just because speakers are sold as "studio monitors", doesn't mean they are going to excel in that application. Because my PC is "integrated" with our studio (ie: I'm sitting in front of my studio mixer as I type this), I tend to use the gear as a stereo when I'm "online", I use Tannoy Reveal passive monitors (passive meaning they don't have a built-in integral amplifier) and they are fine, but I like to hear music as it is on a record or CD, not "artificially" hyped. I have friends who a few years ago replaced the speakers on their good stereo with a pair of active Reveals and were amazed at what they were hearing, so it works for some people.

:cool:

[la Huerta]

i was actually looking at some called 'linear phase studio monitor', there's are a few different models with different power handling, they are a few years old now and seems to be a very popular brand, made in USA i think, not expensive to buy an older set which is what apeals to me as i'm just kind of experimenting in getting good sounding home theatre on the cheap, kind of pushing the boundries and avoiding buying cheap 'new' items, which are crap, some of these older speakers are just great with simple old fashioned designs that work very well...these looks like they'd have some punch too !

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f66/casitas/f7_1.jpg

[HiString]

Don't confuse these with the reputable "Phase Linear" brand.

Actually while typing I ran a Google and found............:

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/158966.html

http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2004/archive_whitevans.shtml

Somehow, I think I'd be looking for something else.

:cool:

[la Huerta]

Don't confuse these with the reputable "Phase Linear" brand.

Actually while typing I ran a Google and found............:

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/158966.html

http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2004/archive_whitevans.shtml

Somehow, I think I'd be looking for something else.

:cool:

yep they look like the knockoffs all right...bummer:(

maybe better to stick to a pair of JBL's, i'm determined to find an old pair of really good speakers
thanks for that by the way:)

[HiString]

Are you planning on using an existing amplifier, if so, what are it's specs., (wattage, output impedance)?

If not, you could look into a pair of powered (active) speakers.

The thing is, that most speakers are designed for a particular application, ie: Hi Fi, PA, Studio monitors......and as such, each have their own characteristics which don't necessarily translate well into the other applications. For instance, a pair of reasonable Hi Fi speakers with say a 6" or 8" bass driver and a tweeter will likely be enhanced to exagerate the low end frequencies without the need for a sub woofer, whereas a pair of similar spec'd studio near fields would not normally have that exagerated low end and in certain circumstances will definitely benefit from a sub woofer.

Also, if buying older speakers, it is virtually impossible to know how they have been treated. I have seen good quality stereo speakers that were visually pristine and unmarked BUT because of their age, the speaker cones were ready to or already disintegrating.......:eek: .

:cool:

[la Huerta]

yeh your probably right mate, not worth mucking around with old cheap stuff...

[la Huerta]

while i'm here does anyone know how to clean speaker cones, make them nice and shiney again, it's a rainy day here and just thought i'd give my current speakers a detailing, they have smooth cones and rubber surrounds, all black...


La H

[dalejw]

i was actually looking at some called 'linear phase studio monitor', there's are a few different models with different power handling, they are a few years old now and seems to be a very popular brand, made in USA i think, not expensive to buy an older set which is what apeals to me as i'm just kind of experimenting in getting good sounding home theatre on the cheap, kind of pushing the boundries and avoiding buying cheap 'new' items, which are crap, some of these older speakers are just great with simple old fashioned designs that work very well...these looks like they'd have some punch too !

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f66/casitas/f7_1.jpg

They look like about as far from studio moniors as I could possibly imagine. It wouold be pretty rare to have a piezo horn in anything remotely resembling a monitor. More for PA applications.

If you're after a really nice set of speakers and are willing to do some of the building yourself check out www.theloudspeakerkit.com (http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com) . They are all kit based but dead easy to put together.

I recently built a set of F6's for a mate http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/shop/productdetails.asp?ProductID=69&ProcessType=1 and they are simply a stunning set of speakers. Awesome bass extension and great imaging for the price. We did a lot of searching for speakers around the $1000 mark and nothing pre built came anywhere close to these.

The F5's are also worth a look if you're after something a bit smaller http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/shop/productdetails.asp?ProductID=66&ProcessType=1

[la Huerta]

yeh there nice kits mate, unless i happen to to find a grand floating by in the rain today, then i'll just have to stick to dreaming about them....nice thing to save up for though...

La H

[silentC]

Yamaha NS10's, all black with a white speaker cone
Yep, that's the one. Every studio I ever went in back in the late 80's early 90's had a pair.

[soundman]

The whole notion of a studio monitor is not what it was years ago.
In the past a " studio Monitor" was the best, the pinicle, the ultimate and most expensive speaker you could get your hands on.... only the real recording studios and the very rich could afford them.

The likes of ALTEC 604's, Tanoy Gold's, URI time aligned concentric's..... and on and on

Between then and now lots of things have changed, good speaker design has moved on, mass manufacturing has taken its effect and the private HIFI enthusiast has more money to spend than many recording studios.

In reality lots of the mid range HIFI speakers are technicaly better and sound much better than lots of the top name monitors once used by the big studios.
Some studios are in fact using upper end HiFi product others are using mass produced low priced studio product.
The term "Studio Monitor" these days realy doen't mean much particularly when the people using it most are purveyors of cheap nasty rubish.

Mostly in this country the word "monitors" is all that is used to mean what is used to listen to in a studio because we use the word "foldback" for stage monitors.

It matters little these days because anything half decent sounds so damn good spending huge bucks is not necessary to properly hear what you are mixing.

I have heard some cheap chineese made stuff in use and I couldn't believe how good it sounded or how cheap it was.

As for what to use for surround sound... three decent matched full range speakers at the front is important, the stuff at the rear realy dosn't need to be real flash because the majority of the content and volume is comming from the front.
besides some of the early surround formats (5.1) had very narrow response in the rears.... diddly squat bottom end and and top end that stopped before it could be called anything more than upper mid.

In reality the best thing you can do (unless you are loaded) is buy a package of surround speakers.

cheers

[Harry72]

As for what to use for surround sound... three decent matched full range speakers at the front is important, the stuff at the rear realy dosn't need to be real flash because the majority of the content and volume is comming from the front.
besides some of the early surround formats (5.1) had very narrow response in the rears.... diddly squat bottom end and and top end that stopped before it could be called anything more than upper mid.


cheers

Doesnt seem you've experienced the best thing too use on 5.1 or DTS... its not movies or music and is critical to have the same quality speakers all the way around... video games!
Some games(well most new games) depend on surround sound to be played with the full experience of it, FEAR is a good example without it you cannot tell when an enemy is sneaking behind you... http://www.ubeaut.biz/machinegun.gifbang bang your deadhttp://www.ubeaut.biz/newburn.gif !

5.1/DTS is full range through all channels, its the old dolby proligic that has limited sound bandwidth through the rears?


In reality the best thing you can do (unless you are loaded) is buy a package of surround speakers.
nope were mostly DIY'ers here best thing for us is DIY kits, we got the tools to construct them real nice!http://www.ubeaut.biz/chuckle2.gif

[wilco]

make your own!

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/

ive just about finished these

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/DD8-MkII.html

they sound great, im just looking for a suitable veneer to dress them up then im done! ive made 2 and will make another 3 when funds permit :rolleyes:

[noodle_snacks]

In my experiance, until you get to the F6 type range with LSK they are not all they are piped up to be, (based on objective measurements i have made of their M6s for example), However they do better than the cheap "surround packages" that soundman suggests going for.

To get the best value for the money for Hi-Fi equipment i would suggest using a design from a well known designer such as: http://www.zaphaudio.com/ or the Humble Home made Hifi that has already been linked to. Vifa (Peerless V-line), Peerless and Scan-Speak can be sourced from www.wescomponents.com.au and Seas/Adire stuff can be sourced from http://www.aranmaracoustics.com.au.

If anyone is really interested in designing their own stuff, then a subwoofer is by far the simplest, and best place to start. Full range speaker design with a decent chance of success requires impedance and acoustical measuring capabilities, and a limited understanding of electronics. There are many books i could suggest, however the best thing would be to start hanging out a bit at www.diyaudio.com

[old_picker]

while i'm here does anyone know how to clean speaker cones, make them nice and shiney again, it's a rainy day here and just thought i'd give my current speakers a detailing, they have smooth cones and rubber surrounds, all black...La H

Umm dont mess with it you may be sorry.

I use a pair of JBL studio monitors with a yammy 60 watter and it sounds awesome. You get a pretty flat response with them and I just tune it up to the room with the eq. It is ver subjective area and you will pay a lot more for studio quality monitors than for your average consumer product. Just choose what sounds good in your ear not what the label says

[soundman]

how do I clean speaker cones.
carefully
with a soft dry 2" paint brush unless you are absolutely sure they are impervious to water then carefully with a barely damp cloth.

cheers

[la Huerta]

if you remember from an old post i have the ear pearcing jv60's...

i'm taking the addvice and not touching an old monitor speakers.....ever

...but

i'm going to rebuild mine...found this using the same drivers http://www.kaiaudio.com/index.html

i built mine atleast 10yrs ago and before i knew much about woodworking, the drivers are all perfect still but the cabinets although strong and solid are a little outdated...

just a few crossover bits and some mdf and i'm in action...

if you like i'll post all the constructing up on here...

[GraemeCook]

La Heurta

Soundmans given some real good advice.

In the early 1970's I worked at the ABC for a short while and then their sound recordists would ONLY use Tannoy Gold Studio Monitors - they replayed as close as possible to the original instruments.

In 1975, in London I bought a pair of Tannoy 15 inch monitors for 99 pounds and built the boxes to house them. The rubber surrounds have perished and I bought a kit and replaced them myself - easy. (The surrounds join the parchment cones to the metal chassis of the speaker drivers.). I am still using them and I cannot buy any replacement with an equally good sound for less than $10,000.

IMHO the only real developments in speaker design in the last 20 years have been to make them cheaper to manufacture and enhanced electronics to disguise/compensate for cheaper speakers. The best option is to buy good quality old speakers and put the drivers in good diy boxes.

Useful links are diyaudio, troelsgravesen, winisd and thielesmall.

Cheers

Graeme

[JohnnyR]

Great thread...how did I miss this one? Not only am I a tool and guitar junkie, I have a severe addiction to vintage audio gear leaning toward the upper end. I am told by my mother that the disease is hereditary and I got it through my father:rolleyes:.

I grew up in a house with Klipschorns and a full Mac system as the main sound with smaller systems around the house and I still have some of my dads stuff to this day. My pride n' joy of the old gear is a pair of Braun L800 studio monitors from the early 70s that dad bought new and they still sound and look like they just arrived from Germany. The clarity is astounding with bass that can have you swearing there is a sub attached to the system when the program material demands it. I drive them with a Yamaha CA1000 integrated amp for a total "70s fix" system:cool: They really don't make them like they used to:(

[derekcohen]

I last invested in hifi equipment some 20-odd years ago now. In those days I was as pernickity about sound as I am today about handtools! What a surprise. A couple of expensive moves around the world, then across the country re-ordered my priorities and I stopped listening to the equipment and only the music (in my case, mostly jazz with a fair sprinkling of blues).

I cannot say that I have made much attempt to audition modern speakers (or even a modern system) in the intervening years, and I dare say that much improvements could be had - at a very huge cost no doubt! I still enjoy my system, so I have not been tempted. Yet I do wonder what it would cost replace, partly because it is getting long in the tooth and cannot last much longer.

Speakers first (since theyare the topic here): B&W DM7 Mk II
Amp: Musical Fidelity Synthesis
Turntable (yes I still listen to LPs): Thorens TD 150 (modified base, springs, platter) with Rega arm and Supex cartridge. Always wanted a Linn but could not justify the expense. Side-by-side 20 years ago, this Thorens held its own.
Turner: Quad (33, I think)
CD: currently playing through a LG DVD. (Its surprisingly OK)
Cables and interconnects: let's not go there!

Any idea how this would rate today and what it would cost to replace?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[tktran]

Hi Derek,

I haven't heard the DM7 MkII, but unless they were the top-of-the-line B&W, I strongly believe that for around AU$1,000, you can build some speakers that will knock your socks off.

With DIY, you control the cost-cutting measures.

Since it takes me FOREVER to build a single pair of nice cabinets, I tend not to take shortcuts on the loudspeaker drive units or crossover. The speakers you build can always be the "best-in-size class" speakers. This is unlike the commercial offerings, where cost cutting measures have been applied on across the entire range, with the exception of the penultimate, or top-the-range models eg. B&W 80x series speakers (which I think are nice, but of course you'd expect them to be, at AU $5K- $35K, which btw I believe is an exorbitant sum to pay for loudspeakers)

I'm in Perth, and anytime you want to come over and listen to my DIY speakers, pop me an PM.

You'll be listening to the Troels Gravesen ProAc Response "2.95" Clone, and in not the too distant future, the NaO...

:-)

[derekcohen]

I haven't heard the DM7 MkII, but unless they were the top-of-the-line B&W, I strongly believe that for around AU$1,000, you can build some speakers that will knock your socks off.

I can't play you the speakers here :rolleyes: but here is what they look like (picture off the web).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Other/BWdm7-1.jpg

In their day they were second to the 801F, which were reference speakers for the music industry.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Other/BW_801F.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kendale]

Aloha from Hawaii,

Frequent lurker, first time post.

Having come into woodworking via building a home studio, I thought I might share a fantastic resource to those who might be interested. You have in your midst a Mr. John Sayers, located in the Australian Rainforest, who has graciously mentored thousands of home recording studio enthusiasts around the world in the areas of acoustic principles, studio design, construction and acoustical treatment. You can find his websites here:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

Many of the questions, misconceptions and myths regarding studio monitors (and the environment they live in) as well as room acoustics, and how those principles can be transferred over to home theater applications can be found at these links. Liberal use of the search feature is sure to bring a wealth of information to your fingertips.

Here's a few more links for more info on studio monitors:
http://www.genelec.com/products/products.php
http://www.genelec-ht.com/news/

Finally, here's a few pics of the fruit. (about halfway down the page)
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4091&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180

Hope this helps,

Aloha:)

[la Huerta]

cheers mate...i'll have a look at that...:)


never spoken to anyone in Hawaii before, such a great place from what i seen ...


La H

[HiString]

Hi Kendale and welcome.

Yes, John has been a most generous contributor and an inspiration on the recording forums for some years and while I've been a member of his forum since it's very early days, I don't stick my nose in as often as I should.

The SAE college link is not John's site BUT the information written there was authored by him and originally available from one of his ealier websites.......before what I believe ended up being a less than satisfactory deal was struck with SAE, but that's past history now.

:cool:

[old_picker]

At home we listen to music, tv, radio etc through a pair of JBL monitor speakers.

Brilliant is all I can say about the sound.

[fred.n]

I bought these bad boys way back in 88 while living in Singapore

Tamon Studio Monitor Pro 9000
Peak Power 600 watts
Impedance 8 ohms

And yes.....they are loud:D :D