Chisel Sharpening [Archive]

pigoo3

12th December 2006, 03:05 AM

Yes...I know...when you "woodturning forum old timers" saw that title you said:

"Jeez...not another "How do I sharpen my lathe chisel's question"!!! ;)

I did a search for "chisel sharpening"...and found some good threads.

I am thinking about mostly sharpening with a grinder.

I figure that the skill needed to sharpen chisels "semi-freehand" on a grinder can't be too much tougher than the skill it takes to turn projects on a lathe.

I also like a statement that "Skew ChiDAMN" mentioned back in a July, 2005 thread..."that you can use a jig to sharpen chisels...but no one jig can sharpen all chisels...so then you have a bunch of sharpening jigs laying around.

A white (Aluminium Oxide) wheel was mentioned in a bunch of the threads as the type of wheel to use for sharpening chisels on a grinder.

My question is...Is there any particular "grit size" associated with the white (Aluminium Oxide) wheel?

Just want to make sure I get the right one.

Thanks,

- Nick

Cliff Rogers

12th December 2006, 02:28 PM

White wheel is 60 grit, pink wheel is 80 grit, blue wheel is 54 grit.

The blue wheel is the latest technology, is more open & removes steel faster with less chance of burning.

I had a white wheel to start with & then got a blue wheel.
Now I want to swap my white wheel for a pink one 'cos the white one is very close in grit size to the blue one.

I want to use the blue wheel for grinding to shape & the pink wheel for touch up sharpening.

I also use a fine diamond hone on my cutting tools & will hone them several times before I go back to the grinder.

You can get them all here.
http://gpwoodturning.yahoostore.com.au/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_by_category?category_id=1107133415

I use jigs for sharpening.

The jig I use for gouges is a Unijig 5, similar to this one...
http://gpwoodturning.yahoostore.com.au/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107133415&product_id=1107432175

& I use a Hiturn for scrapers & skews, similar to this one...
http://gpwoodturning.yahoostore.com.au/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107133415&product_id=1107219760

Daddles

12th December 2006, 02:47 PM

You blokes are making hard work of it. Just touch her up on the bench sander then a quick hone with on the oilstone. :D

Of course, that chisel just gets used for cleaning up set epoxy and taking rough chunks out of timber :rolleyes:

Richard

OGYT

12th December 2006, 03:01 PM

Say, Cliff, with that Hiturn, do you sharpen a skew on the front of the wheel, or the side?

Iain

12th December 2006, 03:10 PM

GPW has a 60 and 80 grit white wheel.

baxter

12th December 2006, 03:57 PM

GPW has a 60 and 80 grit white wheel.

Then he should update his website or he won't sell many of the white 80 grit online:D :D

Cliff Rogers

12th December 2006, 04:02 PM

Say, Cliff, with that Hiturn, do you sharpen a skew on the front of the wheel, or the side?

Front. For those of you who missed it the first time, I have amplifed it a bit. :D

I have posted pics of it somewhere else before, I'll see if I can find them. Here, page 2 post #21
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=36030

Also worth a look if you want to use fat wheels.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=37459

GPW has a 60 and 80 grit white wheel.
Not on his sharpening page he doesn't, well I can't see it if it is there. :confused:

soundman

12th December 2006, 05:47 PM

Before we get all hot under the collar and religeous, lets establish what chisel we are talking about.

I seem to think the original post relates to wood turning chisels.
So lets not have the whole oilstone/water stone hone not grind thing.

The colour of the wheel does not indicate the grit.

diferent manufacturers use the colour as a marketing tool and to diferenciate between compounds. Sometimes the colour originates from the abrasive or the binder used, sometimes its just a colour.

white aluminium oxide wheels are generaly softer and more friable than standard gray wheels and are intended for grinding tool steels. they tend to generate less heat than standard gray.
pink wheels are similar but they are pink..... is there a difference or are they just a different brand......I cant be sure.
BUT you can buy both in a variety of gritt sizes from about 40 to 120.

There is a blue wheel that was developed here in AUS that is a special compound and contains a mixture of gritts and has an open grain structure.
It is claimed that they grind agressivly, with a fine finish whilst remaining relativly cool.
They are also available in a wide format.

Some recomend a 40 and an 80.... the 40 for shaping and remedial grinding and the 80 for fine finish.
I use an 80 but I can see the reasoning in having a 40 too.

I grind my skew on the front of the wheel that way you get a hollow grind and you use the wheel the way it is suposed to be used.

Bench grinder wheels should not be used on the side of the wheel too much... some would say not at all.

a basic adjustable platform jig is probaly the most valuable and versatile jig for grinding turning tools.

please yourself if you want to cough up for one of the fancy expensive gouge grinding things

cheers

Skew ChiDAMN!!

12th December 2006, 06:12 PM

Soundman is spot on, I agree almost 100%!

Almost... I belong to the school of thought that says never use the side of a bench-grinder for sharpening. They're not designed for it, a bad catch can shatter a wheel in a fraction of a heart-beat and fill your underwear just as quickly! :eek:

That's if you're lucky. If you're unlucky, well...

Cliff Rogers

12th December 2006, 06:27 PM

...The colour of the wheel does not indicate the grit....

If you click on the link in my post & have a look at the Pink, White & Blue wheels you will see what I was on about. :cool:

http://gpwoodturning.yahoostore.com.au/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_by_category?category_id=1107133415

When I said pink, I meant this one http://gpwoodturning.yahoostore.com.au/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107133415&product_id=1107414375

When I said white, I meant this one http://gpwoodturning.yahoostore.com.au/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107133415&product_id=1107414373

When I said blue, I meant this one http://gpwoodturning.yahoostore.com.au/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107133415&product_id=1107414365

I was just trying to save some typing. :rolleyes:

Jim Carroll

12th December 2006, 08:09 PM

Cliff as you may be aware the Hiturn jig is no longer available.
We now have the sabre jig to do the same thing which can help a lot of people get the right angles on the gouges and skew chisels.
http://cws.au.com/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107144916&product_id=1107398012

jchappo

12th December 2006, 10:19 PM

pigoo3

12th December 2006, 11:03 PM

Looks like you guys on the other side of the world were real busy...Wow 11 replies while I was asleep!

In any case...I guess that I am a bit confused...but basically...if I am going to get a white (Aluminium Oxide) wheel...and it is the only grinding wheel I am going to use...what grit size should it be...or would be best for all of my wood lathe chisels?

I know one wheel/grit size may not give the absolute best edge on the chisels...I just want to keep it simple.

Once I get comfortable with chisel sharpening...maybe I will get more grit sizes later.

Thanks,

- Nick

soundman

12th December 2006, 11:44 PM

others would say coarser but I would go 60 or 80 gritt it'll give you a nice keen edge... it will be a bit slow on the heavy grinds though.

cheers

scooter

12th December 2006, 11:51 PM

I believe a silicon carbide wheel (green) is actually the most appropriate grinding wheel for HSS in normal workshop practice, rather than the white wheel commonly mentioned in most woodturning discussions.

I haven't seen mention of any woodturners using them. Is this because of most using a mixture of HSS & carbon steel tools, or because most people are used to using a white wheel for plane irons, chisels, etc & this has translated into use for woodturning chisels?

Cheers.................Sean

La truciolara

12th December 2006, 11:56 PM

One grit of say 80 is for me a bit rough but works well.
I think I have already written somewhere that Hooning is not necessary on woodturning tool unlike on those for sculpture.
A finish on the stone EXCLUSIVELY for the gouges you are going to use on a final touch is recommended.
As far as chisels are concerned, after having tried quite a few I love the oval skew chisel. Those used by students are often Sharpend directly on the wheel using the Oneway jig. I must say that mine is done on a diamond stone…;) :)<O:p</O:p

Skew ChiDAMN!!

13th December 2006, 12:41 AM

I haven't seen mention of any woodturners using them. Is this because of most using a mixture of HSS & carbon steel tools, or because most people are used to using a white wheel for plane irons, chisels, etc & this has translated into use for woodturning chisels?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I prefer one (well... two. It is on a bench-grinder.) versatile wheel to a sharpening station complex that takes up precious floor/bench space.

This is the reason I use whites... and the reason I recommend 'em to new turners. One wheel that'll not only handle HSS turning tools well, but can also be used for my other chisels, planes, etc. before they go to the stones.

The way I see it, sharpening is just another chore that needs to be done to allow me to do what I enjoy; I'm not about to become all anal about getting an edge that'll split the atom. (Except for knives, but that's a different kettle of fish. ;))

pigoo3

13th December 2006, 12:51 AM

others would say coarser but I would go 60 or 80 gritt it'll give you a nice keen edge... it will be a bit slow on the heavy grinds though.

cheers

Looks like I will settle for a white wheel in the 60-80 grit range. If it is a bit slow on the heavy grinds that's ok...slower is better anyway at first. That way no big mistakes!

I will just take it slow, and watch out not to overheat the chisel.

Thanks for all of the responses,

- Nick

RETIRED

13th December 2006, 08:08 AM

Cliff Rogers

13th December 2006, 10:13 AM

Cliff as you may be aware the Hiturn jig is no longer available.
Yeap, I've had mine for about 7 years.

We now have the sabre jig to do the same thing which can help a lot of people get the right angles on the gouges and skew chisels.
http://cws.au.com/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107144916&product_id=1107398012
That is more like the one I have & I paid more than $45 for it 7 years ago. ;)

OGYT

13th December 2006, 02:22 PM

Cliff, I appreciate your taking the time to answer my queries. .
Looks like a nice sharpening jig. Thanks.

Jim Carroll

13th December 2006, 05:36 PM

John just had confirmation that our order is sitting in Melbourne in customs so trying to get it from there to my place.

scooter

13th December 2006, 05:56 PM

Thanks for the green wheel input & Skew, googled for some further info, one link here (http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/wheelinfo.htm).

Cheers...............Sean

jchappo

13th December 2006, 08:38 PM

John just had confirmation that our order is sitting in Melbourne in customs so trying to get it from there to my place.

Oh, good - in time for Chistmas:):)

John

SawDustSniffer

13th December 2006, 09:05 PM

ever since the labour at work droped my bench grinder and bent the axel i've had to use an old belt sander with no padding under the belt , it works so well i might not bye another grinder , a lot cooler and 10sec to change grit

soundman

14th December 2006, 02:59 PM

Further regarding green wheels.
There is an extensive argument floating round on the web somewhere about using green wheels with HSS. I got hold of this some time ago and thaught I'd check the facts.

As far as I found

Aluminium oxide is the appropriate base abrasive for grinding almost all steels.
Silicon carbide is recomended for grinding stone and other soft materials including certain non ferous metals and plastics including wood and leather (:confused: yep)..... additionaly it is recommended for very hard metals and cemented carbides.

So for most tool steel a green wheel isn't realy appropriate, however some of the very hard tool steels (don't ask me details) silicon carbide is appropriate.
We almost never encounter tose very hard grades of steel in wood work.

If you use silicon carbide on softer metals you will find that the well will wear very fast. the same if you use alox to grind stone.

cheers

OGYT

16th December 2006, 01:27 PM

I don't like the hollow bevel I get on my skews and gouges from the grinding wheel, so I'm in the process of converting an old Sears 6" belt sander into one of these: http://www.bigtreetools.com/products/sharpening-machine.html I've just got to give it a try. :o
I don't know the exact spacing of the little holes for the Vee-Block, but I think I can get them close enough to right to be useful. In the pics, the holes appear to be graduated, from about 1/4" apart to about 1.5 inches, the farther you get from the belt.
I had add a piece of timber, to swing the motor on my sander around, in order to change the direction of travel. And now I'm laminating two thicknesses of 1/2" baltic birch plywood together for the board that has the holes. I'll post a pic when I finish... if it works. :o

hughie

16th December 2006, 01:47 PM

I don't know the exact spacing of the little holes for the Vee-Block, but I think I can get them close enough to right to be useful. In the pics, the holes appear to be graduated, from about 1/4" apart to about 1.5 inches, the farther you get from the belt.

Al,
I dont think its that important as its only a graduated scale of some sort to allow for various handle lengths to achieve the angles you desire.
Ball park dimensions should suffice. :D

Don Nethercott

16th December 2006, 02:34 PM

I dropped into Garry Pye's shop on my way past a year or so ago and discussed wheels. He said the coarser the grit the quicker the cut and so the less heat generated.

Finer grits cut slower and so heat up quicker and so more likely to blacken. If you have a finer grit (ie 80 or 100) take the chisel off the wheel more often to cool down, or dunk frequently in water. If you have a 40 or 60 you don't have to cool down so often.

I think mine is a 60 (Aluminium oxide that is). Other point is that the wheel should be at least 8" - the 6" has too much curve.

I don't use a jig, I like to shape by hand. The jigs restrict the shape, whereas by hand you can customise. ie on my bowl gouges I have a longer edge on the left than on the right (taught to me by Richard Raffan). In particular I buy square end scrapers and shape to various designs according to need.

Don

rsser

17th December 2006, 08:04 AM

I think Darlow has recommended belt sharpening on one of those devices you can mount to your grinder. Cool and no hollow on the bevel.

He also talks about different bond strengths as well as grits in Alox wheels. Softer bonds run cooler.

Just thought I throw this in to muddy the picture ;-}

soundman

18th December 2006, 02:01 PM

Indeed bond sterngth is important to us.

the standard grey wheel is also aluminium oxide but the bond strength of white and pink wheels is softer. there fore the dull grains part company with the wheel easier revealing sharper stuff, this is suitable for our sort of sharpening but you can easily poke a hole in a soft wheel leaving a gooove.

the standard grey wheel is more suited to agressive grinding..... boilermaker style.
Don't let your typical meathead metalworker near your nice sharpening wheel.

(not that all metalworkers are meatheads..... just lots of em:D :D )

cheers

Skew ChiDAMN!!

18th December 2006, 06:04 PM

Hear, hear!

One of the first things I get my new turners to buy is their own white wheel. That, sand-paper and a set of cheap chisels to learn sharpening on.

I don't mind supplying the timber and finishes, but I've no intention of having to redress my wheel at the end of every day simply 'cos they can corrugate it when sharpening even the widest square scrapers or skews! :rolleyes:

Don Nethercott

18th December 2006, 07:45 PM

The "normal" grey wheels on the average 6" and 8" grinders (ie Abbot and Ashby) are carborundum, not Aluminium oxide.

Have a look at this site -

http://www.toolies.com.au/tips/tips.html?a=article&id=7&sesid=ffb4e8f39ad2da9eb2...

Carborundum is good for quick grinding of mild steel where you are not after an edge, but HSS steel must not overheat. Carborundum is fine if it is water cooled (ie in a lapidary grinder and some specialist grinders).

The Carbatec catalog has some grinders fitted with an aluminium wheel and an "ordinary" wheel (ie carborundum).

Don

QbnDusty

18th December 2006, 09:59 PM

Sharpening anything on this forum is bound to elicit numeruos replies. It is full of experts, which is a good thing. So being a non expert at grinding lathe gouges, ie doing it free hand, I bought myself a Jig. Namely a UNI-Jig 5 made in Australia and will grind/sharpen any turning tool. (At least what I own, which is all the normal ones) You can find it at http://www.unijigproducts.com.au/UniJig/unijig.htm.
Do not know them just happy with their Jig.
Regarding grinding wheels, well lots of info. I have a white aluminium oxide one which I used for a long time then at a working with wood show I watched an expert. He used a Ruby wheel (Not exactly pink) and I bought one. If I recollect it is 100 Grit Soft. Absolutally magnificant, cool sharpening and produces a good edge.
Hope this helps.

Skew ChiDAMN!!

18th December 2006, 10:35 PM

IMHO it's all a relative thing.

For cost, availability and versatility I still recommend a newby turner to start with a white wheel. Once they have all the various techniques involved with sharpening under control then start experimenting with other types of wheel. If they notice an improvement, then fine. If not, then why bother persisting just 'cos it's "technically better?"

I've tried several types and personally I see little real difference when it comes to sharpening turning tools. I'm not sure whether this is because it's what I'm used to, or whether it's because I'm only interested in a quick two second pass to get back to the job at hand: turning! IMHO, any longer than that and you're doing something wrong unless you're deliberately reshaping the profile.

Come to that, I believe that how much steel is lost per grind depends more on the quality of steel used in the tool (and my tools are a very mixed bag) than the wheel colour. Assuming they're all equal grit, of course. ;)

When sharpening knives, plane blades, etc. it's different... but the whole process is different then, anyway!

Cliff Rogers

19th December 2006, 12:34 AM

.. I bought myself a Jig. Namely a UNI-Jig 5 made in Australia and will grind/sharpen any turning tool. (At least what I own, which is all the normal ones) You can find it at http://www.unijigproducts.com.au/UniJig/unijig.htm.
....
That is the one I have, I thought they had stopped making them.
I only use it for my bowl & spindle gouges.

TTIT

19th December 2006, 09:01 AM

.... why bother persisting just 'cos it's "technically better?"
.....because I'm only interested in a quick two second pass to get back to the job at hand: turning!I'll second that!

rsser

19th December 2006, 01:13 PM

True, but with say fingernail grinds on small gouges it isn't hard to colour the edge, so a good cool running wheel helps.

Dipping in water is not sposed to be good for the microcrystaline structure of HSS (I can spell it, I think! but don't ask me what it means).

Iain

19th December 2006, 01:19 PM

microcrystaline structure of HSS (I can spell it, I think! but don't ask me what it means).

Little crystals????
I think it would pertain to the structure of the honeycomb that you see when a piece of metal has fractured, under the microscope it comprises of this fine honeycomb structure and I imagine it may weaken when subjected to certain stresses be it mechanical or heat (cold).