American TS safety?

[RossM]

Hi,

Can anyone comment on the differences between safety standards in the USA & Oz in table saw use? I have been looking at a few video pod casts recently and it seems that riving knives are almost non existant in the US, and that (if the videos are anything to go by) even saw guards seem to be uncommon.

I have also seen some examples of cross cutting on the saw using the rip fence (work piece of about 50 x 75 mm being cut to about 450 mm) and no guards or splitters of any sort & the operator leaning over the saw. I had believed that this was a dangerous practice as even a slight twist from normal to the blade would jam the work piece & could cause an accident.

There also does not seem to be the same mention for the use of dado blade sets in Oz magazines as there are in the US ones.

Any comments?

[watson]

Sshhhhh!!! We haven't told them yet!

A lot of the DVD stuff is done without guards & stuff for clarity...the riving knife stuff I don't know....would always us one no matter what. However, the sepos seem to fixated on dado blade sets. Due to ingenuity (OZ) there are probably other ways around it, but all our good suppliers list them in their cattle-dogs.

[Toolin Around]

No Ross is right. Riving knives and the likes are very rare - in fact I've never seen one in use in the 20 plus years I was a cabinet maker in Canada and the states are the same. Blade guards are also very rare. The last time I saw one of those was back in school in 1980. Nothing wrong with a dado blade - used them for decades. Can't vouch for the idiot using them though.

[AlexS]

I have also seen some examples of cross cutting on the saw using the rip fence (work piece of about 50 x 75 mm being cut to about 450 mm) and no guards or splitters of any sort & the operator leaning over the saw. I had believed that this was a dangerous practice as even a slight twist from normal to the blade would jam the work piece & could cause an accident.



Sure frightens me! You are absolutely correct about a slight twist turning the workpiece into a missile.

[watson]

Damn! I thought I'd got onto a fact.......
I wonder why the use of guards is rare.........
And me, I'd love a good dado blade set...then I can do some of those idiotic things too!!

[RossM]

Here is an example of what I mean! Does not seem uncommon from the USA.

This one is from the Furnitology blog (episode 4 of the videos). http://furnitology.blogspot.com/index.html


http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44437&d=1177063713

[Honorary Bloke]

Damn! I thought I'd got onto a fact.......
I wonder why the use of guards is rare.........
And me, I'd love a good dado blade set...then I can do some of those idiotic things too!!

Cheers Watson, you DID get onto a fact. :D All US table saws are sold with a blade guard and most with a splitter or riving knife. It's just that everyone removes them. :rolleyes: Most tradies and hobbiests believe the blade guard obscures the line of sight and is more dangerous than operating without. Since the splitter is often an integral part of the blade guard, it disappears as well.

You cannot use a dado set with the guard or splitter, of course.

As for cross--cutting using the rip fence. :oo: That's very dangerous and a no-no in my book. An excellent way to launch a missile or lose a finger. There is an easy way to use a stop block on the fence before the blade to obviate this practice, but too few either know about it or use it. Often used when cutting tenons with a dado blade.

This is why the SawStop generates a lot of discussion here. Since we often eschew the safety equipment, we need another way to save a finger. :wink:

[Lignum]

All US table saws are sold with a blade guard and most with a splitter or riving knife. It's just that everyone removes them.

Bob its interesting that the US style guard is illegal in a commercial shop here.

[Honorary Bloke]

Bob its interesting that the US style guard is illegal in a commercial shop here.

My point exactly! They are inherently unsafe and recognized as such by users, though not by the government or manufacturers. :)

[Lignum]

We have to use the Suva style guard.

I carnt remember the last time i had a guard on my saw as i reckon they are unsafe and dangerous. It is close by so when Mr Worksafe pops in i just tell em its off for cleaning :wink:

[RossM]

OK - so why are the guards dangerous?

And what about splitter/riving knives?

[Groggy]

Here is an example of what I mean! (Screen shot from the Furnitology blog http://furnitology.blogspot.com/index.html) Th is not to pick on anyone in particular, as it seems quite common from my recent viewing of USA material.


http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=44438&stc=1&d=1177065596Lemme see here:

short piece between fence and blade
Groin in the firing line :no::oo:
Finger too close (unnecessarily)
Not using the sliding table
no guard
doesn't appear to have a splitteranyone else see anything?

[Groggy]

OK - so why are the guards dangerous?

And what about splitter/riving knives?Guards are not dangerous, improperly designed or inappropriate guards are dangerous.

Riving knives are good, I like mine and leave it fitted.

EDIT: to clarify, I classify certain pushsticks or any device used to protect you as a guard, it doesn't necessarily have to be fixed to act as a guard.

[joe greiner]

[QUOTE=Honorary Bloke;499031]There is an easy way to use a stop block on the fence before the blade to obviate this practice, but too few either know about it or use itQUOTE]

That's the way Nawm (Abrams, New Yankee Workshop) does it every time I've seen. Should have sunk in by now.

Joe

[Toolin Around]

Here is an example of what I mean! Does not seem uncommon from the USA.

This one is from the Furnitology blog (episode 4 of the videos). http://furnitology.blogspot.com/index.html


http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44437&d=1177063713


No other way to say it... This guys an idiot. Especially cause he has a fence that can slide so he can use the mitre gauge and or a push stick.

[Honorary Bloke]

No other way to say it... This guys an idiot. Especially cause he has a fence that can slide so he can use the mitre gauge and or a push stick.

I'm not sure idiot does him justice. :oo: :oo: But they'll soon be calling him Lefty. :rolleyes:

[rrich]

Dunno, maybe I'm just wierd. I have a splitter with anti kick back pawls that I use except for dado cuts. I don't make cuts with out this splitter in place. The splitter is made by Biesemeyer and is unique for each saw design. The splitter can be removed and re-installed in seconds. The cost was about $140US and worth every penny.

[soundman]

HMMM "American table saw safety".....that would have to be an oxymoron:oo: :D :D

Seriously though the whole WHS thing seems to be on a very different footing over there.

but sorry the old " the guard gets in the way" chestnut doesn't cut any ice with me or more so the regulators in this country ( then the EU is an other thing again)

There are good reasons to remove a guard ( or a riving knife) for certain operations. But there is no good reason for leaving it off all together.

If the guard is a problem it should be repaired or replaced with one that is safe and practical.
If the guard has to be removed for a special operation it should be replaced immediately on completion.

A lot of the time though its the operation that is the problem and not the guard.

As for the " I cant see the blade" excuse.
If you can see the blade & there is no guard between you and the blade...... guess what? the blade can throw stuff straight in your face.

If you are working off the fence you dont need to see the blade at all.
besides how much of the blade do you want to see?
do you recon that you can accurately cut by eyeing up the spinning blade?

My current machine has a overhead guard I can adjust it very easily and very rarely do i need to remove it.
The riving knife almost never comes off.
My previous machine had a splitter mounted guard with the anti kickback dogs.
I never had a problem with it getting in the way. or not being able to see what I wanted to.
I would have to agree the antikickback dogs were a pain, curiously never see them on european machines. anyway if there is a splitter or riving knife in place how do you get kick back? Sorry I don't get this one.

I think there are two main parts to the problem, one is the general attitude to safety issues in the US and the other is the american style cabinet saw its self.
The basic design makes it difficult to make certain things work nicely.

For example Because the blade arbour swings from a pivot at the front any riving knife fitted will rise and fall faster than the blade
because it is a simple relativly small box extending the fence & side table or adding a rolling table means you have to stabalise the unit by adding extra legs & bolting it down.
The basic design has reached its limit and is realy past its useby date it might be Ok for the hobbyist or the small workshop but it is realy tooo crude for serious industry.

I can see why a lot of respected US comentators consider a band saw much safer than a table saw for many operations particularly ripping.

Without a guard and riving knife fitted I would have to agree.
But with the proper (well concieved) safety items in place I would have to say a bench saw can be made a lot safer than a band saw can be.
(Yes I own a bandsaw too, & it is euro compliant)


Some will say that WHS has gone too far here..... well may be a little but not much........look at europe and you will see a much stricter situation.
there dado sets are stricly VERBOTEN.

anyway that should stir things up enough for now:D

cheers

[RossM]

Thanks for the detailed reply SoundMan. :2tsup:

You say there is an inherent problem with American style cabinet saws. This is interesting as I am looking at buying a new cabinet saw. Does this comment imply that other styles are better in this regard? I have not looked at the mechanisms of cabinet saws as yet, but I would have expected that the rise & fall system would be provided by a parallel (to the table) lifter. I can see how this would add cost, but we are talking about quite expensive machinery, and such a lift would be much more stable. I'll have to start investigating!

Do you have any suggestions about styles or brands? Should I restrict my options to "Euro" style saws?

On another note - some saws are left tilt and some right. Is one safer that the other? If so, why the difference??

[soundman]

the vast majority of the cabinet style table saws offered in AUS are derived from the US style delta unisaw.
And to a certain extent you are stuck with that unless you go well up market to the european derived machines like the fielder, hammer, and so forth.
I have the MBS300 mickyway saw that many of the local importers badge.
the reason I choose it was because it had a proper riving knife.... it is a good machine but it suffers from the limitations of its unisaw heritage.

the unisaw derived mechanism is a good stable design and solid but it has the limitations of a single front pivot point for rise & fall.

check out some saws & you will see what I mean...yopu'll have to stick your head inside:oo: take a torch:D

unless you have a few lasy thou, i think you will probably end up with a US derived design.
the TSC10HB and the MBS300 are good machines to look at.
I looked at one of the new jet machines at the wood show.... it seemed worth looking at.
So you'll probaly have to work arround the limitations & fix/replace the guards.
cheers

[RossM]

I'll take a tourch & spare batteries to the WWW show in Sydney :D (only a month or so away). Should be able to get a good idea of what is what there I guess.

[Tooljunkieyank]

Lignum, Here in the states no one ever said we were smart. Been around cabinet shops most of my life and I have never seen any knives or guards except on the ground or tucked away on a shelf somewhere.

Was at a local cabinet shop one day and we have a department here called OSHA. Part of the US labor department and they will just pop in on any worksite and infract you for your safety. Well while I was at this shop they came in and shut the shop down for no gaurds on most of the power tools, jointer gaurds not functioning properly, DC containers filled, over head air purifiers with clogged filters and also every outlet needed to be GFI for all machines.

I remember learning with my pops framing homes when I was younger and all the guys removed or stuck a shim under the guard of their CS since it was a problem and getting in the way. Thank God in all the years I have never seen an injury from a saw...

[Ernie47]

While you are all on the subject, I have just started using a TS. (One at the lower end of the price range.)
I have some recycled pine I have been ripping & the TS seems to struggle a bit although it does get through. (With the guard etc in place.)
I have been contemplating removing the guard & knife and lowering the blade to rip the timber in a few passes.
Is this the way to go or should I carry on ripping through with the guard etc in place?
Thanks in advance for your advice.

Ernie.

[journeyman Mick]

Ernie,
you might want to consider a proper ripping blade. Less teeth and will enable faster feed speed.

Mick

[RossM]

Earnie -

What size saw & what dimension timber?

I had simialr problems with a Triton & found that it was the riving knife out of alignment. :(( Triton replaced it :) as it was slightly scewed. I then had problems with a thin kerf sawblade binding on the knife :~ , so I sanded the riving knife about 0.25mm each dide. Now all works fine.

My first suggestion: Check knife & sawblade alignment. Use a straight edge accross the blade, contacting the teeth - I use a good quality Stabilo level (POWER OFF & UNPLUG THE SAW!!) The straight edge should not touch the knife. Do this on both side of the blade. Align the blade if needed so the knife clears on both sides.

Second suggestion - check the saw blade. Most low end saws come with combination blades (& I have seen low end hobby saws supplied with non carbide crosscut blades in a rip bench!) Best to use a rip blade if you are doing a lot of ripping, particularly on long lengths. If the wrong blade, it will struggle. Pine should rip well with a sharp rip blade. Buy good quality blades & use the right one for the job.

Third - Set the blade height properly. For a rip blade the carbide tip of the top tooth should be just above the top edge of the timber. For a combination blade, raise it so the deepest gullets just clear the top edge when the blade is rotated.

Also, reduce the feed rate a bit & see if this helps.

I have also found that saw power is important for ripping large sections.

I would not remove the knife!

[Wild Dingo]

Then there Incra... cant put the rear fence rail on and still put the blade cover and splitter back on WITHOUT cutting the rear fence rail... which to my mind would stuff the integrity of the damned rear fence rail and the overall of the whole rail... now its cut!... so Im still waiting on a better option than the no cover/spitter that presently resides on the TSB10 in the workshop... I did however make several different sized and torsioned adjustable hold downs that work of the fence I think Nikki made them with a wheel at the outfeed end? I couldnt work out a workaround to fit the wheel so I got a rubber covered bent handle and screwed that sucker to the metal rail thingy that attached to the fence... seems to work alright... well no lifting or grabbing and tossing from a 10ft x 6in x 1in board the other day being ripped into 1in x 1in lengths... with due dilligence and being fully functional and aware while using push sticks and flat handled push sticks it seemed to work with no issues

BUT I dont intend to cut through the damned Incra fence rail :~ that just doesnnt make sence to me... I mean part of the integrity of the fence is that its held to the table at certian points along half its length right? RIGHT so if I then have to cut through the damned fence to fit the sodding cover and riving knive back on wheres the integrity of that fence gone? Down the dunny thats where... so Im presently trying to work a way of cutting the riving knife of the cover and perhaps even the holding spring loaded spikey things as well so that its simply a matter of taking the insert out undoing a couple of screws and whallah gone or vis-a-versa... just gotta do some more figurein and find some time :roll:

[soundman]

firsty as to ripping.
yep certainly buy a ripping blade.. they arent expensive because they don't have many teeth:D
also when ripping...... blade all the way up.... there was a serious discussion about this a while ago

there are many good reasons to have the blade all the way up when ripping
among them
1 reduces blade engagement improving cutting speed and chip clearance
2 the blade enters the wood with a more downward thrust reducing the tendency of the timber to ride up

the only reason you would consider ripping with the blade at a lower height safer is....... if you aren't using a guard.
If you arent using a guard or a splitter/ riving knife.... ripping is one of the most dangerous table saw operations.
With a properly concieved and adjusted guard and splitter in place it is one of the safest operations.

now to the chopping the incra fence..... I dont get it.
whats the problem.

if its those spikey anticick back pawls...... I still don't understand how they are suposed to improve safety.......you could probably remove them without risk.
why is the rest of it getting in the way of the incra?


cheers

[MurrayD99]

...if its those spikey anticick back pawls...... I still don't understand how they are suposed to improve safety.......you could probably remove them without risk.
Yes indeed. They are not useful and in truth are a pain in the neck.....

[RossM]

Beg to differ SoundMan. You have it the wrong way around. The full height blade is safer from kickback as the forces are vertically oriented. (see pics below) However, the blade manufacturers carefully design their blades (and I'm talking about DESIGNED blades from quality manufacturers) to have the tooth geometary set up for a height above work pretty much as I've described. Sure, this will place some additional load on the saw motor if there is a high feed rate, which is why power is important, but the additional teeth engaged in cuttting provide optimum performance as this is how the balde was designed to operate. For ripping, this height can provide a glue line cut (with a good blade) - raise the blade and loose cut quality. As you point out, with a knife, the kickback risk is reduced anyway.

Also, minimising the blade height reduces noise and vibration and increases blade stability - there have been a few university studies on this.

See http://www.bt3central.com/articles/layoutpage.asp?ArticleId=85 for a great article on kickback

[Wild Dingo]

now to the chopping the incra fence..... I dont get it.
whats the problem.

You paid over 1000 for a friggin fence lately? Last thing you want to have to do is cut the friggin rails!

Trouble is to get the cover with the spikey bits and the riving knife on AND the Incra the TSB 10 is such that you have no choice but to cut it if you want them both... simple fact... the outfeed side has a post horizontal at 90* to the rail but the cover thing does not fit or attach to the horizonal post under the rail with the rail intact... I would have no problems whatever cutting through the fence that came with the saw none whatever but if Im payin over 1000 for a bloody fence I aint cuttin it!

And therein lays the reasoning behind figureing out some way to cut of the riving knife section so its stand alone get the cover gone the pawls can stay I dont mind as the section Id be cutting would be attached through the insert cuttin out the rear section taking the cover with it... but I am not cutting the bloody Incra!

[niki]

I'm reading (and participating) in many of the American WW forums and the UK forum and this issue comes up from time to time.

The American safety laws (or regulations) are very.....I'm not sure what safety regulations they have....

In UK (actually all EU) the safety regulations are very clear:
1. Riving knife (not splitter) must be installed for all operations
2. Blade guard must be installed for all operations
3. The blade must come to rest within 10 seconds
4. Short fence must be used for all ripping operations
5. The rip fence should have two positions, high fence for thick boards and low fence for shallow or angled ripping.

You can see it all and more here
www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

From the above, not even one of the American saws will cross the pond to EU.

But lets leave the laws, I think that safety is a matter of commonsense or simple logic.
The guard will not make it safer, the guard guards from "flying objects" like splinters or blade tooth but it will not prevent anyone of pushing his fingers under the guard and....ER.

I'm very sorry to hear (or read) about those guys that had an accident but on the other hand, I would like to look in this guy's eyes and ask him "what the hell, your hand or fingers were doing so close to the blade, you didn't know that the blade is a cutting device"....Sorry but it's like while driving, crossing to the opposite traffic lane and after the collision telling "I did not know that there is incoming traffic"...(on which you drive in OZ).

I'm working with "high blade" because of the reasons that Soundman mentioned but I use the Riving knife, guard, push blocks and push shoes as you can see on the pics below (even with the crosscut sled).

I think that one have to "want" to cut his fingers on the TS, that's the reason that they have so many posts on "How good and safe the SawStop is", yes it is, especially if one has intentions to cut his fingers....as they say in aviation "Accidents don't happen - they are caused".

Interestingly, when I posted the "Jointing on router table" in one of the American WW forums, the "Master" himself (Pat Warner) replied to me - "Suicidal operation", but, I'm very curious if he replied the same way to the guy's that operate the TS like in the pic (and video) above as "Suicidal operation" (and with all due respect, I still think that my operation on the router table is safe especially after I added the second fence, well, at least muuuuch safer than on the video).

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Glass%20table/001.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Glass%20table/004.jpg

[Ernie47]

Thank you Gents. The timber is 50x100x1200. The saw is 254mm.
As soon as the blade height was mentioned I recalled reading this somewhere. (Used to using a CS with minimum blade showing!)
The knife is aligned O.K. There is always the possibility I my expection is far greater than the ability to deliver. Not to mention the blade. I had been intending to replace the blade with MORE teeth. OOP's. wrong again.
Ernie.

[RossM]

Hi Ernie

ripping 4 x 2 pinus should be like the proverbial hot knife in butter. I would get a decent ripping blade! (From my experience don't get the cheap ones on special in Bunnies - pay a bit more - cheaper in the long run) BTW, what brand/model is the saw?

[RossM]

Just another thought - you DO have the blade on the right way around, don't you:- ??

[soundman]

All righty then.
One thing that I would have verry little faith in would be a university study into the operation of a table saw....... BH..... if these university types were experienced machine users may be, but some how I doubt it.

One of the most dangerous situations on a table saw is a board being ripped, the cut closeing up and the rear of the blade getting traction on the piece thus lifting the piece...... the blade then gets traction on the underside of the piece propelling the piece like a spear directly back at the operator.
table saw 3hp at 5000rpm, blade 20 tooth. vs woodworker maximum peak output 400watts reaction time about 500ms.
woodworker looses
similarly any situation when the back of the blade forces the piece up contacting the top of the blade
It is very much harder to have this problem with a splitter or better a riving knife in place.

rossm.. I have it exactly the right way round.
read my post again.
ripping with the blade all the way up is the safest and most efficient ripping option. unless you are not using a guard...... because there is a substantial risk of comming in contact with the exposed blade.

Speaking of cut quality in a ripping action as you speak..... is not a ripping action..... you are looking for a surfacing action...... there is a compromise of purpose.

If I was using a 20 tooth ripping blade i would not expect a glue line cut.
My latest ripping blade is pretty good but I wouldn't be using it for a glue line cut.

BTW my last ripping blade cost me a just a bit more than $50. Good brand too.

As for assertions about what the manufacturer intends..... that is a very big generalisation. With all the different geometries offered by the umpteen manufacturers..... sorry bad generalisation.

As I said there was an extensive thread on the subject of blade projection a little while ago so I want go thru the whole thing again.
however I have found

That strict generalisations about how much blade projection produces the best cut are not helpful.
Depending on the blade and the material being cut and the finish problem in hand the optimum amount of blade projection varies substantilay.

one example
one of my blades cuts laminate better (gives a cleaner top edge)with a high blade position 25mm or more of projection. this is contary to the common mantra.

Finaly
any blade guard's primary function is to prevent acidental contact with the spinning blade...... of course you can put your hand under the guard but you cant just bump into it.
additionaly most guards will provide some discouragement to pieces riding up and getting on top of the blade and other such misbehaviour.

cheers chaps

[Ernie47]

Gedday Ross, I did reply sooner but it seems to have got lost in hyperspace.
The saw is Ryobi ETS1526AL & the blade is in O.K. & spins the right way.) The wood ispretty rough, from pallets or packing cases so friction on the table could add to the perception of being slow.
Soundman, your not alone in your scepticism. It was universty intelligencia who claimed a cricket ball can't swing & THAT slow bowler doesn't chuck!

Ernie