Hollow things - end grain or side grain???

[Caveman]

G'day all - as the heading says - which is generally the preferred/easier/friendlier/most practical method for turning hollow thingy's - end grain or side grain.

My first 2 efforts are below. One was side grain and the other on end grain.
Both had pluses and minuses in terms of ease of turning and finishing.
I was just wondering what was the standard or more common practise.

Also, how does one sand the inside without breaking too many fingers? I ended up wrapping sandpaper around a stick and poking it in there, but the results were'nt quite what I would have liked at the end.

Comments/advice much appreciated.
TIA

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

G'day all - as the heading says - which is generally the preferred/easier/friendlier/most practical method for turning hollow thingy's - end grain or side grain.
...

Both had pluses and minuses in terms of ease of turning and finishing.

You've already answered your own question. :D


I was just wondering what was the standard or more common practise.

Standard practise? I'd imagine that the majority of bowls (or faceplate work, anyway) is mounted for side-grain hollowing. It's easier to hollow than going into end-grain and is more secure when mounted on a faceplate, although a tad harder to get a good finish on due to the alternating grain directions.

But totally impractical for slender goblets, etc, when end-grain hollowing becomes a must if you want the stem to stay in one piece. :wink:

I prefer end-grain hollowing, but I'm told I'm weird. :shrug: From memory and after looking through my magazines and the web, it seems the vast majority of bowls are turned side-grain.


Also, how does one sand the inside without breaking too many fingers? I ended up wrapping sandpaper around a stick and poking it in there, but the results were'nt quite what I would have liked at the end.

Yep. Sometimes I'll wrap a layer of foam or rubber around the end of the stick first, so it can conform to the shape of the curve, or occasionally I'll cut up some old thongs. (As in foot-wear... what the Yanks call flip-flops. Not as in the... ermm... "cheeky" things. :rolleyes:)

But most of the time I just risk fingers. What can I say... I'm lazy! :-:p

[Mobil Man]

Caveman, try taking a length [6-8 ins long] of dowel stick & cutting a narrow slot an inch to an inch & half down the length. A piece of sandpaper folded in half that's wider than the diameter of what you're turning. Twice as wide if possible. Using your electric drill, stick the dowel inside & turn on the lathe. With them turning in opposite directions, it doesn't take long to get it sanded. I used to use this method to hone wheel/master cylinders til I felt I could afford the price of a cylinder hone. I even use this method on goblets. Like you, it makes me nervous to stick my finger in there. I've still got my 11 fingers & wanna keep them.

[Frank&Earnest]

...


I prefer end-grain hollowing, but I'm told I'm weird. :shrug:



Brother!:D

[Frank&Earnest]

Like you, it makes me nervous to stick my finger in there. I've still got my 11 fingers & wanna keep them.

I would understand, if you had only 10 fingers, but that is a very bad attitude for the 11th...:D

[joe greiner]

I suspect most bowls are side grain to get maximum material out of a half log. I've turned some root-ball bowls end grain and sanding the inside bottom was a PITA, probably because of severe spalting, though. As Skew said, end grain is necessary for integrity of narrow components of goblets; likely favoured for vases because of grain orientation: a bit disconcerting to see cross grain on longish projects. Haven't done any HF's, but most I've seen have been end grain - not sure why. I've sanded interiors with a strip of sandpaper wrapped around a tennis ball, attached to a stick via a tiny hole at the tip which doesn't seem to hurt. You'll figure out which way to wrap soon enough!

Three schools of thought on sanding interiors of HF's:
1. Don't sand at all. Turners are pretty much the only ones who'll check.
2. Just sand the easily accessible portion near the opening.
3. Put some sand and gravel inside, plug or tape the hole, and turn via an auxiliary rotisserie drive (about 5 rpm) for several hours. Works like a rock-polishing rig, except acts on the interior of the vessel. Haven't tried that either, but reported to work well.

Joe

[Hickory]

G'day all - as the heading says - which is generally the preferred/easier/friendlier/most practical method for turning hollow thingy's - end grain or side grain.

I was just wondering what was the standard or more common practise. The only common ground or "Standard" is that End Grain is called box and Side grain is called a bowl... Make a lid and it is a lidded box or bowl....

Also, how does one sand the inside without breaking too many fingers? Tis a very good question? anybody know a good answer, please speak up.... There are devices and doo-dads that can reach in and help, but most are simply a variation to a piece of sandpaper on a stick and you already tried that one. When I can, I use a scrap of Scotch-Brite and wrap an appropriate sandpaper and hold it with my finger tip. The Scotch-brite keeps it from overheating and provides a cushion and allow contouring to the inside, as well as, if the paper slips or wears out, the scotchbrite will not mar the inside. Or just use Scotch-Brite itself. TIA

Appears to me you are off to a good start and those are quite attractive. Good going!

[Muriel]

G'day all - as the heading says - which is generally the preferred/easier/friendlier/most practical method for turning hollow thingy's - end grain or side grain.

TIA

What is the difference between end grain and side grain? Does the grain create.. umm... how to say this in english... *scratches head* a special direction one can see? Like... on one timber it goes up (or maybe even diagonal) and with another log it goes sideways?

Could someone explain this one for me, please? Scew's comment about goblet stem's made me wide awake and alert. :U

cheers
Muriel

[Hickory]

What is the difference between end grain and side grain? Does the grain create.. umm... how to say this in english... *scratches head* a special direction one can see? Like... on one timber it goes up (or maybe even diagonal) and with another log it goes sideways?

Could someone explain this one for me, please? Scew's comment about goblet stem's made me wide awake and alert. :U

cheers
Muriel


Tree's growth is from root to stem and the wood fibers that make up the annual growth rings are long slinder cells that reach from root toward stem. If you cut across the log/limb you will expose what is called End Grain, or the ends of the wood fibers. If you cut the log/limb along the length of the piece, what you expose is what he was referring to as side grain as you would be approaching the fibers from the side.

How the piece is mounted to the lathe (faceplate or chuck) determines if you are cutting endgrain or sidegrain (the term sidegrain is in lieu of a more discriptive word, some may call it flat grain or cross grain or Lateral, etc)

[Muriel]

Tree's growth is from root to stem and the wood fibers that make up the annual growth rings are long slinder cells that reach from root toward stem. If you cut across the log/limb you will expose what is called End Grain, or the ends of the wood fibers. If you cut the log/limb along the length of the piece, what you expose is what he was referring to as side grain as you would be approaching the fibers from the side.

How the piece is mounted to the lathe (faceplate or chuck) determines if you are cutting endgrain or sidegrain (the term sidegrain is in lieu of a more discriptive word, some may call it flat grain or cross grain or Lateral, etc)

Thanks a lot! Now I understand this one about grain. Your help is truly appreciated. :)

cheers
Muriel

[cedar n silky]

Thanks caveman for asking the very questions I had queeries about!:) I haven't taken on the challenge of hollow vessels yet, and you have done a fine:2tsup: job on those. What sort of holowing tool did you use?

[TTIT]

Skew and Hickory pretty well covered it but on forms like you've created there Caveman, it really depends on the look you're chasing more than anything.(and just a little on the shape of your blank!) If you were going to include a snug-fitting lid, end grain would be more suitable but something sloppy like a potpourri lid will work on either.

Yes - I'm a 'sacrificer of fingers' too! :shrug: (though the wood gods haven't accepted one yet - phew!):;

[Cliff Rogers]

... how does one sand the inside without breaking too many fingers? ....
(Cut from a post in this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=41959)last year)
For sanding inside small hollow forms, I stitched a piece of velcro loop to the tip of the finger of a cotton glove.
I put the glove on & attach a suitable size & grit piece of sandpaper to it.
Now I set the lathe on low speed & slacken the drive belt right off so I can stop the work with one finger.
I start the lathe & stop it by grabbing the handwheel with my left hand, stick my sanding finger in the hole & carefully let the handwheel loose.

If you get it wrong, you will find that the cotton glove keeps your finger near where it should be while you take it to the doctor to have it repaired. :D

Seriously, it sounds & looks dangerous but if you have the belt very loose & keep your left hand on the handwheel, you won't have a problem.
Always stop the lathe with your left hand before inserting or removing your finger.

[rsser]

With curved forms dowels don't work as well as fingers but obviously you can't buy a finger at the hardware.

Another option is a haemostat if you can source one; clamp a lump of steel wool with the paper around it. Try to find one with the clamp (or one of the clamps) towards the tips.

Finally you can try the standard 1" rotary velcro pad with a larger than 1" piece of fabric backed paper cut into a sunburst pattern and the 'petals' folded back. I haven't tried this method but would do so if the job were 'finger-critical'.

I hate sanding with a vengeance and have done a couple of semi-enclosed forms with a fine corduroy inside off a toothpick scraper in order to avoid the problem altogether. Looks kinda interesting.

[OGYT]

Joe Greiner: Put some sand and gravel inside, plug or tape the hole, and turn via an auxiliary rotisserie drive (about 5 rpm) for several hours. Works like a rock-polishing rig, except acts on the interior of the vessel. Haven't tried that either, but reported to work well.
Joe, I have a tumbler I made. There's a thread on this forum about all the hassel I had tryin' to find the right combo of pulley's to slow it down.
Thing is, I got it workin' at 50rpm and it's perfect. Chuck up the bowl, throw in some granite gravel with a little carbide scraps, and turn it on. Come back 6 hours later, and you're done. Only thing is, it tumbles the softer grain a lot more than the hard grain, leaving the inside all wavey.

Caveman: Also, how does one sand the inside without breaking too many fingers? I ended up wrapping sandpaper around a stick and poking it in there, but the results were'nt quite what I would have liked at the end.
I bought a heavy-duty (10") pair of those bent forceps things that they use in the medical profession (some used to call 'em roach clips or hemostats) :D ... the ones that have the little locking thingys near the handle, and I cut a piece of sandpaper and rubber backing to the right size, and clamp it in the forceps, and sand away. I wrapped the handle finger holes with tape, to keep my fingers from getting twisted off, should the forceps get caught inside.

Really nice looking forms, too!

[Frank&Earnest]

If I remember correctly (it's about 20 years), Neville Sanders, the local doyen of goblet turning, favoured making shape-specific scrapers for the final, featherlight pass. This obvously implies that the maximum width/opening width ratio must allow the operation of the scraper, and the number of repeated shapes (e.g. a set of 6 goblets) make it worthwhile. I wonder whether I will ever be able to make 2 mm thick balloon goblets, though...

[Caveman]

:2tsup: Great response - thats why I love this place!

Loads of interesting ideas as usual.
Thanks again to all for the great comments/advise etc.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I wonder whether I will ever be able to make 2 mm thick balloon goblets, though...

One trick here is to brightly illuminate the inside and watch the oustide for translucency. Most redgums that I use will suddenly start to show colour at about 1.5-2mm, so you need to be quick off the mark unless you like unexpectedly parting off. :rolleyes:

[Wayne Blanch]

Yes - I'm a 'sacrificer of fingers' too! :shrug: (though the wood gods haven't accepted one yet - phew!):;

I have been one to take the risk with my fingers until I finally had the inevitable happen:( . Got my finger caught, spun it around nicely :doh: (felt like it did a full turn). Anyway the tendon was torn from the knuckle and I had to see a specialist hand therapist to get it fixed. Three months of exercises and strapping and it is almost as good as new, but not perfect and I am told it never will be.

I am a Karate instructor and now I can no longer make a proper fist because I can not get that finger to clench properly. Makes it difficult when telling the learners how to make a fist.:~

Essentially what I am saying is IMHO if there is an alternative to sticking your fingers in places they shouldn't go, take the alternative. It is much less painful and probably not as expensive.
Take care
Wayne

[rsser]

Timely warning Wayne. Thanks.

I merely strained my thumb laying the Triumph down in some gravel. Nine months later it no longer hurts but there's not as much strength left in my grip either.