Japanese Dovetail Chisel [Archive]

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RufflyRustic

28th June 2007, 03:54 PM

Hi Soatoz

Do you have any information specific to Japanese Dovetail Chisels?
What is the nomi title for them?

I don't know where to start with them so would appreciate any help. I haven't used any dovetail chisel yet, but every time I see one I just know it's what I'm looking for, just for cutting dovetails by hand.

Yes, I've searched, but that has confused me even more than before :rolleyes:

cheers
Wendy

soatoz

28th June 2007, 07:15 PM

Hi Wendy,

Do you have any information specific to Japanese Dovetail Chisels?
What is the nomi title for them?

Have you visited my HP? You can check out a set of cool Tasai nomi, specially designed for dovetail making! Male and Female.

http://www.geocities.com/soatoz/nomi/Tasai_Chisels/Tasai_Dovetail/Tasai_Dovetail.html

I am asking another maker from Miki if he can make it a bit cheaper since Tasai's are very expensive, but so far he's tried twice and they look terrible (made the neck way too thin), I can't possibly sell it. Kunikei is trying now, but I haven't received them yet.

It seems these chisels are extremely hard to make. Michio (Tasai) is just amazingly dexterous (he's now gained the national licence of swordsmith after 8 years of training!) maybe only Michio can manage.

I don't know where to start with them so would appreciate any help. I haven't used any dovetail chisel yet, but every time I see one I just know it's what I'm looking for, just for cutting dovetails by hand.

The one for female are not sold elsewhere (unless they see my design and order to Tasai) and it is called ichou nomi (ginkyo in Japanese is ichou. The fan shape lookes like ginkyo leaf).

The one for male, strictly speaking this one isn't sold elsewhere either (the ones sold elsewhere, the corner isn't sharp, so although called dovetail chisel, can't be used to make dovetail) and is called ari-tsuki nomi (ari is dovetail in Japanese). To make the corner sharp, it takes one more extra step, so it is more expensive. Another blacksmith in Miki called Takahashi makes this chisel, but the bevel (the sides) are ground after the hardening, so there is no black film (the bevel is shiny!!!). I didn't like that, so I asked Michio-san to gring the bevel first and then harden.

Yes, I've searched, but that has confused me even more than before :rolleyes:

Hahaha, yeah, as I wrote above, none of the generally retailed so called dovetail chisels are fit to make dovetails. That's why I designed it, but sadly no one has ordered them yet! Maybe I haven't explained the difference from usual "bachi nomi" and "shinogi nomi" enough.... Or just simply to expensive. I don't know.

One American guy, who is now a very good friend of mine (his family are planning on coming over soon), when he first saw these chisels he contacted me right away, but for some reason I didn't receive his mail for weeks, and he thought, quote "I just thoght when I did'nt hear back from you that I was some kind of lame american you did'nt want to deal with. In case you havent noticed we are not the most popular country in the world right now, so hopefolly you see why I jumped to conclusions." He's just one funny guy, I enjoy so much talking to him. Anyway, since he "jumped to the conlusion", he ordered them to another vendor who's selling tools from Japan in English. Maybe I should sue bigpond for losing a business chance. Hahaha~~~

Speak to you again Wendy.

PS.
Nice to know there are lady woodworkers in Oz as well! I had two contacts from US but so far only one apart from you from Ozland.

RufflyRustic

29th June 2007, 10:30 AM

Hi Soatoz

Great info - Thanks! I hope you don't mind if I ask a few more 'dumb' questions, just so I can be very clear about this subject. If I'm going to go for such an investment in chisels, then I want to be 100% sure about it. Funny thing to say, considering how much of this I am basing on pure gut feeling.:rolleyes: But, my instincts haven't been too far wrong yet on just about anything to do with woodwork and tools, so here goes :)

Is ari nomi the name for 'standard' Japanese dovetail chisels, the triangular bevel blade like this? http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=54872&cat=1,41504 (standard in my definition being like these ones )

So, male dovetail chisel is ari-tsuki nomi and female dovetail chisel is ari-ichou nomi, and general reference to dovetail chisels would be ari nomi?

Thanks for the direct link to the ari nomi (what is the plural for two or more ari nomi?) I hadn't found that browsing your site.

Please do keep me informed on the progress of these special nomi-s. They are very interesting!!

Cheers
Wendy

Pam

29th June 2007, 01:43 PM

My impression was that westerners call the shinoji style chisels "dovetail" because they look like dovetails, or the pins at least. How are the shinoji style used in Japan?

Also, I'd have bought a couple of Tasai's dovetail chisels if they came in smaller sizes. I understand the problems with making very small versions, but it's the very small versions I particularly need.

How do Tasai's dovetails compare with bachi nomi (Tasai custom made a 3/8" bachi nomi for me that I use in making dovetails) in actual use. Any photos?

Thanks,
Pam

Groggy

29th June 2007, 02:09 PM

Pam welcome to the Australian Forums. (I suspect your last name starts with N and ends with R?) . Your knowledge on chisels and hand tools generally will be a valued resource here. We are also lucky enough to have Soatoz as a valued contributor.

Again, welcome :2tsup:

Groggy
Moderator

soatoz

29th June 2007, 06:16 PM

Great info - Thanks! I hope you don't mind if I ask a few more 'dumb' questions,

Hey no way any of these or the ones before are dumb questoins at all! I bet so many people are finding this thread to be helpful. Hopefully I get a couple of orders of these magnificent chisels.

Funny, sometimes things that I didn't expect to sell very well (natural stones) sell very well, and things that I thought would sell madly (these chisels) don't sell too well. I guess these chisels are too specialized in purpose.

just so I can be very clear about this subject.

Of course.

If I'm going to go for such an investment in chisels, then I want to be 100% sure about it.

In time I'm sure you'll get used to the price of these chisel, because Japanese chisels from well known blacksmiths are more expensive compared to Euro top quality chisels to start with. The two major reasons for this price difference are, 1. J chisels are basically fully handmade, 2. they are laminated (more time and effort spent).

Funny thing to say, considering how much of this I am basing on pure gut feeling.:rolleyes: But, my instincts haven't been too far wrong yet on just about anything to do with woodwork and tools, so here goes :)

Bring it on!

Is ari nomi the name for 'standard' Japanese dovetail chisels, the triangular bevel blade like this? http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=54872&cat=1,41504 (standard in my definition being like these ones )

Hahaha, this one is the one I was talking about that can't be used for dovetail making. Like Pam says above, these are called Shinogi (not Shinoji) nomi because of the shape, and these strictly speaking cannot be used for dovetail making, if you want no space at all between your joints, because the corner isn't sharp as you can see.

So, male dovetail chisel is ari-tsuki nomi and female dovetail chisel is ari-ichou nomi, and general reference to dovetail chisels would be ari nomi?

Mmmm, in Japanese there's no differenciating in singular and plural, so this is an English question. I guess ari-nomis?

Thanks for the direct link to the ari nomi (what is the plural for two or more ari nomi?) I hadn't found that browsing your site.

Oh good.

Please do keep me informed on the progress of these special nomi-s. They are very interesting!!

Thanks.

soatoz

29th June 2007, 06:29 PM

Oh! Hi Pam.

Good to see you in Oz WW forum.

My impression was that westerners call the shinoji style chisels "dovetail" because they look like dovetails, or the pins at least. How are the shinoji style used in Japan?

Hmmm, probably people use them for corners, but I always wonder if they don't mind the 1 to 1.5mm thick corners of these chisels.

Also, I'd have bought a couple of Tasai's dovetail chisels if they came in smaller sizes. I understand the problems with making very small versions, but it's the very small versions I particularly need.

The ones for female dovetail, I discussed with Michio-san if he can go narrower (like 6mm), but couldn't clear the toughness problem around the neck. Go thinner and it'll just snap if something goes wrong.

How do Tasai's dovetails compare with bachi nomi (Tasai custom made a 3/8" bachi nomi for me that I use in making dovetails) in actual use. Any photos?

The angle of both corners are different. Bachi-nomi in my oppinion the angle is a bit too big to make dovetail sockets. The ones shown on my HP are made to order with the various angles specified. I am hoping my friend mentioned above is getting a proper one from the other shop, because they probably don't have the angle datas. Maybe Michio-san might have suggested the angles provided from me, and in that case it should be fine.

I don't have any photos, but I'll try to upload the photos when I get the time.

Thanks,

Anytime. Oh, BTW, the 60mm you know what is almost ready~~~.

RufflyRustic

29th June 2007, 10:09 PM

In time I'm sure you'll get used to the price of these chisel, because Japanese chisels from well known blacksmiths are more expensive compared to Euro top quality chisels to start with. The two major reasons for this price difference are, 1. J chisels are basically fully handmade, 2. they are laminated (more time and effort spent).

I may get used to the price, but my wallet won't, not short term anyway :D I do appreciate that they are specifically and specially handmade.

Hahaha, this one is the one I was talking about that can't be used for dovetail making. Like Pam says above, these are called Shinogi (not Shinoji) nomi because of the shape, and these strictly speaking cannot be used for dovetail making, if you want no space at all between your joints, because the corner isn't sharp as you can see.

Ah Ha!!!! now that part makes sense.

So, I suppose the next question is what iri nomi - matching tsuki and ichou - do you have on hand?

Any photos and sizes of thes particular nomi?

Thanks
Wendy

RufflyRustic

29th June 2007, 10:23 PM

Pam

30th June 2007, 07:40 AM

Pam

30th June 2007, 08:20 AM

The angle of both corners are different. Bachi-nomi in my oppinion the angle is a bit too big to make dovetail sockets. The ones shown on my HP are made to order with the various angles specified. I am hoping my friend mentioned above is getting a proper one from the other shop, because they probably don't have the angle datas. Maybe Michio-san might have suggested the angles provided from me, and in that case it should be fine
....

Anytime. Oh, BTW, the 60mm you know what is almost ready~~~.

Thanks, So, I wasn't expecting the 60mm for a couple or three months yet. What a pleasant surprise.

I've included a link to Tomohito-san's listing for my chisel so you can check out the angles, etc. So far it's working fine for me, but I haven't given it any huge tests.

http://www.japantool-iida.com/_itycms/data/gem/_detail/1148824599.html

Pam

Pam

30th June 2007, 08:47 AM

Hi Pam :)

May I ask for your opinon on nomi, how you find them when compared to western-style chisels?

I'm very interested in your opinion. I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with another fellow Female Woodworker last Saturday who also uses nomi and so I'm wondering if there is a trend here perhaps?

Hi, Wendy, welcome to woodworking and Japanese tooldom. Laurie King, the author who has written a Sherlock Holmes takeoff starring Mary Russell, also wrote a book called "Folly." The heroine is a woodworker who uses Japanese chisels. Now there's not too much about using these tools, but it's kind of cool, and a great story about a female woodworker building a house on an island. The woodworking women I know/know of use power tools, so I don't think this is a trend in the USA.

I like a lot of western chisels (new: Dastra, Two Cherries, Pfeil; old laminated like Witherby, Swan, Addis, Herring), but I love my Japanese chisels. I don't have unlimited funds to spend, so I seldom buy sets, instead focusing on those sizes and types that I need. It's much easier now with ebay, Tomohito, So, Hida, and JWW, in that I can order and receive in a week or so; therefore my work isn't usually held up because of a missing tool. I made the mistake of buying an initial set of oire nomi from Woodcraft, only to find out through experience that once I had all the speciality chisels I needed, there was no need to have oire nomi at all.

Hope that helps.

Pam

RufflyRustic

2nd July 2007, 12:20 PM

Hi Pam,

Thanks for the book reference. It looks very interesting.

Japanese Tooldom - I like that phrase :)

Good point about buying just the chisels needed. I'm only just starting to really use my odds & sodds collection, but not enough yet to say what I like and why. I did, however, use the one nomi I do have yesterday and it was indeed a joy to use. :)

cheers
Wendy

derekcohen

2nd July 2007, 05:07 PM

Hi Pam

Welcome! (We are old friends, going far back it seems to me these days - or is that because my memory doesn't :U ).

May I ask for your opinon on nomi, how you find them when compared to western-style chisels?

Wendy

There is an important difference between dedicated Western dovetail chisels and most Japanese versions.

There are only two modern/new Western chisels chisels that I know that can be used as is for dovetails and have the ability to pare against the tail wall. These are the LN bench chisels and the Blue Spruce detail/dovetail chisels. Both of these are bevelled to the very edge of their sides. All others have a slight wall. Even my favourite Berg paring chisels are so, although this is very slight in their case.

Here are my Blue Spruce. Look carefully at the sides and you will see that they are actually concave:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailchisels2.jpg

With the exception of the nomi that So showed you, I have not seen others that are ground as the LN and BS above. I have Koyamaichi and Matsumura dovetails and they all have a side walls (The Koyamaichi's are quite small but still present). In the case of the Matsumura I ground the sides.

Here are the Matsumura (two on the left) before grinding:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Japanesechiselsprofile1.jpg

I must point out that, firstly, I use my Blue Spruce for paring, and I use the Japanese for choping waste. Secondly, when choping, my technique is to do so in the centre of the tail, then pare away the edges. This way one does not bruise the side walls.

It is possible to turn any chisel into a dedicated dovetail chisel. I have (carefully) ground the sides of a few (including one you now have, although that could be ground even more). One must be careful not to damage the temper. Perfect dovetail chisels are nice but not necessary (yeah, who'se going to believe me on that one :roll: ).

Some will argue that you can pare dovetails with a square sided firmer chisel, and I agree that you can - just that it is more difficult to do so. What then makes it easier are skew- and fishtail chisels to clean things up.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Pam

3rd July 2007, 07:33 AM

Thanks for the welcome, Derek, this is a really nice place.

I think there are a lot of western chisels that will do dovetails (not real sure to what a "tail wall" refers, unless you're talking about the base of the dovetails), they're called fishtails and skews. Piles of them are available in new and old.

Pam

RufflyRustic

3rd July 2007, 09:42 AM

Thanks Derek.

So, before making any big chisel or nomi purchase, it sounds like I should continue my try and test theory of odds and sodds, as well as work on my grinding and sharpening skills too. Off to look at skews and fishtails now, nice to know there are 'piles' of them out there :)

Soatoz, I'm still interested to hear what you have on hand .

thanks
Wendy

soatoz

3rd July 2007, 09:00 PM

I may get used to the price, but my wallet won't, not short term anyway :D I do appreciate that they are specifically and specially handmade.

Ah Ha!!!! now that part makes sense.

So, I suppose the next question is what iri nomi - matching tsuki and ichou - do you have on hand?

Any photos and sizes of thes particular nomi?

Thanks
Wendy

Hi Wendy,

I have never heard of iri-nomi, what do they look like? I couldn't find it on the net either.

I know irimoya nomi, are you talking about those? With very long neck?

Whatever it looks like since I haven't heard of it I probably don't have them with me, so it'll have to be ordered:)

Thanks

RufflyRustic

4th July 2007, 09:44 AM

:doh: Woops!!!! Ari-nomi!!! sorry Soatoz :-

soatoz

4th July 2007, 12:48 PM

:doh: Woops!!!! Ari-nomi!!! sorry Soatoz :-

Oops stupid me, that was obvious if I'd given it a thought a bit more... Hahaha.

Yeah, the ones that are shown on the HP are ready. But these were made for myself, so it's got the best quality material (boxwood) for the handle so they are just a bit more expensive than having red and white oak for the handle.

Tasai's waiting line is about 3 months long, so if you order now it would be 3 months from now when you receive them.

Thanks

soatoz

4th July 2007, 12:54 PM

Thanks, So, I wasn't expecting the 60mm for a couple or three months yet. What a pleasant surprise.

I've included a link to Tomohito-san's listing for my chisel so you can check out the angles, etc. So far it's working fine for me, but I haven't given it any huge tests.

http://www.japantool-iida.com/_itycms/data/gem/_detail/1148824599.html

Pam

Hi Pam,

Oh~~~~, now I know why people say bachi-nomi can be used for dovetail making. Yeah, dovetails are possible, but not the half blind dovetails. When I was saying dovetails, I was always thinking about half blind dovetails. Also if it's just a normal dovetail, you wouldn't need any bachi nomi either (for normal dovetail making you only need an ari-nomi for male that has sharp corners (not shinogi nomi) ), so I was assuming when people said dovetail they meant half blind dovetails as well.

In above page from Iida-san, it says bachi nomi can be used for making half blind dovetails, but I can't see why this is possible. The angle of the corners are too big to fit the corners of the socket (female) isn't it??? When I make a half blind dovetail, the corners have smaller angle than the angle of the bachi-nomi. The second photo in the following page.

http://www.geocities.com/soatoz/nomi/Tasai_Chisels/Tasai_Dovetail/Tasai_Dovetail.html

This is half blind dovetail joint (Han-kakure-ari-tsugi) I make, and you can see bachi nomi won't reach the corners of the female socket. You'd need a pair of kiridashi, right and left, to reach the corners if you were to make it with out the specially designed chisel.

Do you see what I mean?

I've added some drawings for both female and male chisels as well to make everything clear.

Cheers(^^)

Pam

4th July 2007, 04:43 PM

OK, So, let's suppose that you have some half-blind dovetails to make and you've never heard of Tasai's chisels. This approximates the entirety of the western woodworking experience, and yet we've managed to make half-blind dovetails. How would you do this?

Tage Frid, a very famous woodworker, cut the difficult areas with a scraper blade, put it in the sawed kerf and hammered it straight down. Works a charm.

Cosmo (Rob Cosman) has a couple of dvd's out in which he uses his modified LN chisel, which looks amazingly like a bachi nomi with unnecessary, gross blade behind the nomi shape.

Jim Kingshott pared with western and/or Japanese chisels, but regular paring chisels, not even bachi nomi. I'd detail this more, but this video is on tape and my vcr broke a few weeks ago. I'm still trying to convince myself to get it fixed. I'd buy another, but they're difficult to impossible to find.

Several woodworkers have mentioned grinding the beveled sides to a hollow grind, as witnessed by the Blue Spruce chisels.

And on it goes. Now I'm willing to allow that the special Tasai and Kunikei chisels could provide some advantage in time, neatness, and general contentment, but I truly don't see the advantage yet, particularly given the size problem. How do they work?

Pam

silentC

4th July 2007, 05:07 PM

An article in one of the Australian woodworking magazines covered a technique used by a lady here to cut blinds. She has ground the first inch or so of teeth from one of her dovetail saws and she taps it into the kerf with a mallet, similar to Tage Frid.

Pam

4th July 2007, 06:43 PM

Cool, SilentC (What a user name! Even writing "silent c" betrays the name. :) ), great idea. What are the Australian ww rags' names?

Pam

Groggy

4th July 2007, 07:09 PM

Here's one for you Pam, Australian Wood Review (http://www.woodreview.com.au/)

If you think you'd like to read one, let me know and I'll send you a copy. Make that an old, well thumbed, copy :wink: .

Pam

5th July 2007, 01:00 AM

Thanks, Groggy, AWR looks like a great magazine. I almost ordered the current issue, but shipping is such a killer. Very nice of you to offer an issue, but I wouldn't want to break up any sets.

Pam

derekcohen

5th July 2007, 02:00 AM

In above page from Iida-san, it says bachi nomi can be used for making half blind dovetails, but I can't see why this is possible. The angle of the corners are too big to fit the corners of the socket (female) isn't it??? When I make a half blind dovetail, the corners have smaller angle than the angle of the bachi-nomi.

Hi So

Pam made a couple of good points. I can expand on these as I have a few diagrams to hand (having done this before).

I have a couple of nice Iyoroi fishtails, plus a few I made myself, such this one:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailchisel1.jpg

It is used to clean out the corner of half blind dovetails, like this:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailfishtailcutting2.jpg

The alternative is to use a skew chisel. The difference is that a fishtail chisel is pushed forward and a skew is slid in a slicing motion:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailfishtailcutting3.jpg

Tage Frid, a very famous woodworker, cut the difficult areas with a scraper blade, put it in the sawed kerf and hammered it straight down. Works a charm.

Here is the one I made (out of a steel trowel). The HSS blade is as thin as a saw kerf.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailblade.jpg

Pam, as I recall Jim Kingshott did not use anything but his nomi to clean out dovetails.

Regards from Perth

Derek

silentC

5th July 2007, 09:24 AM

What are the Australian ww rags' names?
I think this particular story was in Australian Woodworker. I don't subscribe to it any more but I'll see if I can dig out that issue. From memory, the lady had been voted woodworker of the year.

Groggy

5th July 2007, 08:35 PM

Thanks, Groggy, AWR looks like a great magazine. I almost ordered the current issue, but shipping is such a killer. Very nice of you to offer an issue, but I wouldn't want to break up any sets.

PamHi Pam,

I don't collect the AWR, just the FWW series. If you'd like one it is no problem at all for me to send it off to you. It won't be recent as I haven't bought one for a little while, but we are not talking advances in neurosurgery here so it shouldn't be an 'issue' (pardon the pun).

If you would like to read it, send me a PM with an address and I'll post it off.

soatoz

6th July 2007, 05:58 PM

OK, So, let's suppose that you have some half-blind dovetails to make and you've never heard of Tasai's chisels. This approximates the entirety of the western woodworking experience, and yet we've managed to make half-blind dovetails.

Hi Pam,

Yes, I totally agree, I don't think this chisel is a neccesity for making half blinds. It's just that "for me" it was "nice to have" so I had it made for myself, and if anyone is insterested, I can sell. That's all there's to it.

Thanks