Two ideas that worked.... surprise!

[soundman]

Today I tried two simple ideas that worked very well.
Ideas so simple and I have only seen them mentioned once, and not a sniff of them from any other source.

A plain square chisel..... or the UNskew.
I got talking with "Mathew A/ toolin arround" some time ago and the matter of the UNskew was raised. I determined that i would try it one day.
I reground a cheap small skew square across the front.... two bevels just like a normal skew. I did this some time ago.
I gave it a run today on some spindles..... What a great tool.
for some of the cuts you do with a skew, a normal skew puts you in some real obtuse positions.
Being unskewd put you very muck more in frontb of the lathe for these cuts.
cuts like skewed peeling cuts and cutting down a shoulder.
for cutting tennons this tool is grate.... its like a wide parting tool in this application..... not that you hog out with the fulll width, you work more with the corners... but you can use it for a final flat planing cut for a last trim.

Oh Yeah you gaotta try this one.

Grinding the scraper upside down
Now this is mentioned in a book by Reg Sherwin he couldnt understand why others dont do it this way either.
So you gring the scraper with the cutting edge down.... the thinking is that the bur drawn that way off the grinder is sharper and stronger, because thats where the bur would naturaly form.
Only tried it today..... but I recon that is the case.
I also seem to think it is easier to controll to tool on the rest and see waht is going on.
this certainly bears more testing.

Give em a go and let me know waht you think.

cheers

[thefixer]

Geez Soundman, you make life hard. I watched a video the other night about using the skew correctly. I haven't been turning for very long and was doing it all wrong until seeing said video clip. Just when I thought I had it all worked out you go and move the bloody goal posts. Does this mean I have to go through all the nerve shattering learning curves again?:(

Cheers
Shorty

[Tornatus]

G'day Soundman

Re the "UNskew" : I think you'll find that the reason the Poms call a square-section tool with a double bevel a "Parting and Beading Tool" is that you use it vertically for parting, and horizontally for beading and general spindle work - just like the square chisel you are describing.

As for the upside-down scraper - I once asked a famous French turner why he used the bedan (which is a form of scraper) with the bevel uppermost, and he simply gave a Gallic shrug and said that when he asked his father if he could learn to turn, his parent had just handed him a bedan, walked away and left him to figure it out for himself. So he had always used it that way up.

Whatever floats your boat. :;

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

And a skew chisel sharpened square across already has a name... it's called a skew chisel! :D Seriously!

That's how they used to be sharpened, bevelled on either or both sides, until relatively recent times when someone realised that by angling the bevel you didn't have to hold the tool at such an awkward angle most of the time to get correct cutting presentation.

I guess they were called skew chisels 'cos you held them skewed to the toolrest. :shrug: Ain't it amazing the crap you can learn when you read a lot of old books? :-

[rsser]

Hi Soundman,

Yep, Record used to produce a square dual bevel chisel. Still got one. My son liked it better for planing cuts than I did.

An alt for an awkward skew position is to have a second one with the angle running the other way.

Another option for scraper grinds which appears to be gaining popularity is to grind both the face and a bit off the top - negative rake I think they call it. Just tried it on a 3/8" thick square end scraper and found it pushed back too much with straight-sided hollowing.

[Cliff Rogers]

I use the Bedan like a Skew or Beading tool & sometimes as a scraper.

[Barry_White]

Until I joined this forum I never realised that a skew chisel was meant to be used the way they are used.

As a patternmaker apprentice I was taught to use a skew as a scraper or as a parting off tool but never over the top of the spindle as a cutting tool.

Even now I only ever rough down with the gouge and finish of with the skew holding it as a scraper which gives a very smooth finish.

Actually all my scrapers have a small top bevel as this will prevent dig ins.

As a patternmaker we used to turn up to 1800mm diameter rings on cross arms fixed to 600 diam steel face plate and the last thing you want when doing this is a dig in.

[Hardenfast]

Morning Soundman, and Skew.

I must admit to being very jittery regarding use of the Skew Chisel on the lathe, whether square nosed or, well, skewed. This has progressed to the stage that I just don't use the frightening thing much at all. When I have used it I applied it in much the same manner as Barry White has described above.

I am fully aware that this is because I have never learned to use the item correctly, and I obviously don't appreciate the applications and subtleties of the tool. I had intended to catch the Richard Raffan demo (Taming the Skew) when I visited the Sydney Wood Show recently to try to gain some measure of confidence, but missed it all together.

Are you aware of any articles or tutorials/videos which may enlighten an unlightened one?

My use and understanding of the scraper is not much better than the Skew at this stage, to the point that most of my serious dig-ins have been with the scraper. Again, obviously fully attributable to user ignorance. Having said that, I have sharpened the Scraper "upside down" as the resultant burr direction occurred to me as well, but am probably missing the importance of bevel and application to the work etc.

I'm quite keen to learn more about these implements of death here on the forum, rather than by the trial and error+error+error method.

Regards. Wayne

[Tony Morton]

Hi Soundman
Skews frighten me at any time, regarding sharpening the scraper up side down I sharpen right side up and when it dulls turn the scraper over you have to adjust the angle some what but it works. its probably the same result as the negative rake scraper I seen in England a couple of years ago.

Cheers tony

[joe greiner]

Are you aware of any articles or tutorials/videos which may enlighten an unlightened one?


Alan Lacer is a major proponent of the skew chisel. He recommends ripping an 8-foot 2x4 (2m 90x45mm) in half and cutting each result into 8 pieces, then practice, practice, practice.

Google ["alan lacer" skew] for some videos; maybe some articles, too.

Joe

[rsser]

I think the toughest part of the skew is turning beads ... planing and trimming a cylinder end are pretty straightforward. For planing just watch that the edge cuts roughly the right angle (easy to vary this and see the results) and about a third the way up from the heel.

And for beads you can always use a spindle gouge (just can't get quite as obtuse a groove angle between adjacent beads) or a parting/beading tool.

Yep, Lacer's website has a demo from memory but it's hard to beat taking a lesson from someone who knows.

[soundman]

There realy is no difference in the presentation of the tool edge between the real skew and the UNskew, it just puts you and the handle in a different place.
I recon the UNskew would be useless for cutting beads and a lot of skew like activity, but for a couple of operations it is great.

No I don't think it is a beading and parting tool, thai is waht we call a prting tool here and the bevel is ground across the edge not along it.
The UNskew would be useless as a parting tool i recon.

there are a lot of people who don't like the skew and lots of instructors who don't teach it till well along the way.

there are those who recon everything should be done with the skew.:roll:
those who avoid the skew where ever posible:o

and the rest of us.:U

I wouldn't say I was an expert with the skew, but I manage.

Mike darlow's book has a realy good description on how the skew works.
Before anybody says ....You cant learn..XYZ from a book or a video...... yeh mate you mightent but others can.
Mikes description is very detailed but you have to take the time to read & understand.... the try it out & fugure out what you are doing wrong... the read again.

The skew certainly needs practice....... so do I.:B

one thing that occurs to me is that a lot of scrapers are sharpened far too pointy, most of my scrapers are ground just off square.... well a lot off square but thay most certainly arent the fine acute cutting angles I have seen on many new scrapers.
If you sharpen to a bluntish bevel the scraper will tend to chip limit and not dig as easily.
And you will be forced to use it below centre.

cheers

[TTIT]

I learnt to use a skew from an article in Woodturning magazine (now watch some bugga ask which issue?:~) Prior to that it just sat in the rack daring me to try. I'm still not sure if I'm using it absolutely correctly but I manage a pretty good finish most of the time with it. Still managed 3 dig-ins on egg number 104 :doh::B There are times when having the edge square across it might be handy but I doubt I'd bother to leave the lathe to get one when the occasion arose. Still manage every cut I do with the same 8 chisels.

Sharpening scrapers 'upside-down' makes sense but I never use mine. I use the Sorby teardrop for shear-scraping and I sharpen it square to the wheel from either side leaving burrs on both edges, all the way around - long time between resharpens that way.


........An alt for an awkward skew position is to have a second one with the angle running the other way..........:roflmao::roflmao2:Good one Ern! Can't believe nobody picked up on it - til now:B:;

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

:roflmao::roflmao2:Good one Ern! Can't believe nobody picked up on it - til now:B:;

I actually do have LH and a RH skews. :p They're only single bevelled though, which I prefer as it changes the angle the handle's held at.

My only double bevelled skew is oval profile and has a curved cutting edge; not because I'm trying to keep up with the latest fad but because with the oval profile that's always how it seems to sharpen... :-


A good trick for those learning to use a skew, which I picked up from , is to use a black texta and mark from the middle of the cutting edge down to about 4-5mm from the heel. (the not-pointy bit) When you're cutting, only use the marked part of the edge.

Using the longer unmarked section towards the toe (the pointy bit) leaves the tool with insufficient supported by the toolrest and is the main cause of bad dig-ins. It's "the danger zone." Using the 5mm near the heel tends to result in torn fibres as you're only making half a cut, trenching with the edge of the tool...

[rsser]

Yep Vern.

Someone recently posted a link to a digital book scan of an old US turning manual. When I looked at LH and RH skews in it I thought what you did.

But it messed with my mind so I went out to the shed and laid it out in front of me. I rarely plane with the skew but could imagine if you were eg. planing up to a plinth and you were supposed to use the bottom third from the heel how a mirror-image skew could be best.

... I'm not a tech person at all. I've taken two lessons on beading with a skew and got some kind of result but without practice it's gone. That kind of irritates me. At the turnfest was kind enough to demo it and I think I'm now ready to try again :-

[Wood Butcher]

Are you aware of any articles or tutorials/videos which may enlighten an unlightened one?

Richard Raffan has a couple of videos that accompany his book "Turning Wood". While they are a bit old now I believe that they are still good reference. I even used it today to show to some Yr 11's that are starting wood turning. Had them all watching and asking questions (which I couldn't answer:- )

[Sebastiaan56]

I feel like Im in a Wood Turners Anonymous meeting. "My name is Sebastiaan and I cant use a skew chisel properly.... well its only the truth...., and I had lessons....., but I can get a good finish with EEE and Glow!"

Good tip Skew, Ill try that when I get the courage to pick the weapon up again, thx

Sebastiaan

[rsser]

LOL Sebastian :U ... whatever works, works!
.

[Tornatus]

For those of you suffering "skewphobia" (fear of the chisel, that is, not its namesake ...) I can only endorse most emphatically what a number of the others here have said - get someone to teach you how to use it properly. You can watch all the videos and read all the books you like, but nothing will work as well as some time spent in hands-on instruction/supervision.

I count myself lucky that I began woodturning with lessons from a professional turner who was also an excellent instructor, and he started me off right from the outset with a skew doing roughing, dressing, V-grooves, beads - the whole nine metres. I had quite a few catches, but he always showed me why they had occurred, and taught me to respect the tool, not fear it.

I have always followed his example with beginners I have helped, and have found that people who make friends early with the skew, before some clown has a chance to put them off with horror stories, invariably find it the most versatile woodturning tool they can use.

Spindle gouges, however, are another thing entirely ..... :roll:

[soundman]

I have to say the richard raffin video is excelent.

aparantly the darlow videos are great to as long as you turn the sound off, it has been said that Mr darlow will never get work as a voiceover artist...sorry mate:;

cheers

[TTIT]

While we're on the subject (almost), can anyone tell me how those dudes in Kasislamabadistan or wherever that turn using their feet as well can cut coves with a skew??? :confuzzled: I read where they only use one or two homemade tools shaped like skews and I'm damned if I can work out how they can turn a cove with them :shrug:


Yep Vern.

Someone recently posted a link to a digital book scan of an old US turning manual. When I looked at LH and RH skews in it I thought what you did.Sorry Ern - couldn't resist - never seen a single bevel skew!:;

[rsser]

No probs ... I was kind of expecting someone to say 'you're having a lend of me' ;-}

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

A cove with a skew? Easy peasy... so long as you don't mind the cove being several inches wide and only very, very shallow...

[Manuka Jock]

While we're on the subject (almost), can anyone tell me how those dudes in Kasislamabadistan or wherever that turn using their feet as well can cut coves with a skew??? :confuzzled: I read where they only use one or two homemade tools shaped like skews and I'm damned if I can work out how they can turn a cove with them :shrug:

they have sharp toenails :U

[Toolin Around]

I've never had any problems with taming the skew but find them to be not as versatile as a chisel style.

I abandoned the skew years ago for a few reasons reasons:

1) The more perpendicular to grain direction the greater the chance of lifting the fibres resulting in tear out - especially in really gnarly grain. It would be impossible to do a planing cut while holding the blade edge in alignment with grain direction but the closer you can get to that the more the chisel actually cuts the fibres instead of lifting them (same principle with a plane that has a large opening). It's much more prevalent in hardwoods and almost non existent in really softwoods. Eastern Maple from North America is very susceptible to this type of tear out. I haven't turned enough Aussie woods to know which would do the same but I suspect anything with curly grain and relatively "brittle" fibre.

2) The chisel lent itself better to the type of production turning style I had developed over the years. I mark one side of the chisel so that I know which side is face up all the time. That way I could buff the face up side to obtain a razer sharp edge and still maintain a crisp hollow grind on the back side. Because it's at a 90 degree I can go either way with out having to flip the chisel. Since the edge is buffed to a very sharp edge the result are better with less effort.

3) On the right woods (softwoods) it works very well as a very wide parting tool and you can remove a lot of material very quickly without having to keep changing tools. Push it into the work with the emphasis on bevel rubbing and just lift the handle and the shavings just peel off.



I'm gonna have a go at the uside down grinding and see how it works.

[scooter]

Another option for scraper grinds which appears to be gaining popularity is to grind both the face and a bit off the top - negative rake I think they call it. Just tried it on a 3/8" thick square end scraper and found it pushed back too much with straight-sided hollowing.


Just read an article on negative rake scraping & it was ground as you described it, Ern, but it was used with the lower bevel rubbing, much as the burnished burr from your Veritas turning scraper burnisher is meant to be presented.

Article here (http://www.hiltonhandcraft.com/Articles/The%20Negative%20Rake%20Scraper.pdf).


Cheers.....Sean

[Barry_White]

Just read an article on negative rake scraping & it was ground as you described it, Ern, but it was used with the lower bevel rubbing, much as the burnished burr from your Veritas turning scraper burnisher is meant to be presented.

Article here (http://www.hiltonhandcraft.com/Articles/The%20Negative%20Rake%20Scraper.pdf).


Cheers.....Sean

Like I said Pattermakers were doing this over 50 years ago on scrapers. We did this to prevent dig ins on big jobs.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Care to expand on what you mean by "dig-ins," Barry? It has me puzzled, as a correctly held scraper shouldn't get dig-ins. Not as I understand 'em, anyway.

So you've piqued my curiosity...

[joe greiner]

From the lower picture in Sean's link, the bevel provides radius control, while placing the cutter below the effective "equator" to prevent catches. Normal scraper use below the equator avoids catches, but doesn't provide such radius control. At least that's how it looks to me.

Joe

[rsser]

Thanks guys.

I recall seeing a vid from the 80s of Vic Wood doing a demo turning of one of his big square lidded bowls. He was using a std scraper with the bevel rubbing, doing a kind of peeling cut. Fits with your experience Bazza.

Well my NRS wasn't used with the bevel rubbing and maybe it's time to get out and try again (not with the 3/8" thick scraper though!) as well as do some more tests with a burnished edge.

Just need to finish the Mk II mortar and pestle. Mk I was too small for the lady.

[Barry_White]

Care to expand on what you mean by "dig-ins," Barry? It has me puzzled, as a correctly held scraper shouldn't get dig-ins. Not as I understand 'em, anyway.

So you've piqued my curiosity...

Hi Skew

Maybe I should have said catch rather than dig in. This used to happen when turning very large rings up to six feet in diameter with a flat face of up to six to eight inches across which had to be dead flat. With a scraping chisel without the top bevel we would often get catches.

These where turned on a 2 foot diameter faceplate to which a timber cross arms was attached. The pattern ring was attached to the cross arms with 4" screws. The depth of the rings would be from six to eight inches in depth and were constructed and built up from segments.

All this was mounted on just a headstock mounted to the floor and no bed or tailstock for the lathe and it had a 4 foot swing. It was driven by a three phase motor abd had three inch diam spindle to mount the face plate to.

Now when you get a catch on that spinning around 3 feet away from the centre you can also get some brown skid marks.

We found by grinding the bevel on the top of the scraper it eliminated the catches.

The bevel we ground was no where near as pronounced as the one in the pic in Joes post but it did stop catches.

I have posted a pic of the scraper I used to use. The bevel may be a bit hard to see because it blends in with all the rust on the chisel. This chisel is over 50 years old and has not be used in anger for 45 years. I think it is a bit of overkill to use on a pen. This chisel is made from an old file with all the teet ground off.

[Rance]

Soundman,

I am truely saddened. I see you started this new thread and go to read with much anticipation but when I get there, I see your new Avatar. My attitude just sank. Well, I guess I'll just have to recall from memory the times when I see your posts and think of that old Avatar with that jolly looking fellow to brighten my day.

Oh, and I started using your tag line about us being made of meat for the woodworking classes I teach now. It's a hoot.

Oh, on subject, I scanned the topic and didn't see a pic of your new plain square chisel. Did I miss it somehow?

Rance

[OGYT]

Bazza, I appreciate your explanation of the dig-ins... that's what I still call catches, most o' the time. Could be 'cause most of my catches are diggin' holes. :) Now that I've seen your scraper with the little bevel on top, and the diagram of Scooter's, I may try somethin' betwixt the two, on one of mine. (hope I don't get th' skid marks) :D

[soundman]

Yeh I thaught it was time fro a change of avitar.....I may go back to "Angry of Mayfair" at some time in the future...... or perhaps " Captain Cremmin".

as for the picture of the UNskew... no I didn't post a picture of it.... I thaught it was self explanitory........ Its a skew chisel that isn't.

cheers

[HansGScholte]

I got quite interested in this unskew chisel.

As far as I know, in the mid 20 century revival of woodturning the square end chisel was the preferred tool for planing cuts. Skews were used for facing off and comparable cuts. Later woodturners seemed to get used to skew chisels as more versatile and most forgot about the square chisel.

In Peter Childs 'The craftsman woodturner' there is a section on this chisel.
These chisels are still made, a.o. by Henry Taylor (http://www.henrytaylortools.co.uk/chisels.html) and Ashley Iles (http://www.ashleyiles.turningtools.co.uk/turntols/turntols1/turntols.html)

Hans

[Baz]

Soundman, I was turning some mallee bowls today and thought that I would give your idea on sharpening the scrapper upside down a try. Very impressed with the result, a bit harder to get the angle right but worth the effort.
Cheers
Barry

[soundman]

interesting hey.:D