Adelaide Show 2007 Happiness

[zenwood]

Took delivery of my major show purchase today, and spent a pleasant hour setting it up. Seems to work OK, but it has twice out of 5 or 6 power-ups tripped the house's circuit breakers. Is this just because the motor is new?

Some other hand tool and hardware purchases also shown. Finally decided to get a japanese saw. It sure works! I also got a Lie-Nielsen chisel. After 5 years, I'll have a set;)

[woodbe]

Nice purchases zenwood,

I'm no zen woodworker, but I love my japanese pull saws.

Is it the circuit breaker or earth leakage tripping? Might be time to give your beaut shed it's own circuit..

woodbe.

[zenwood]

Thanks, woodbe. The shed does have its own circuit breakers: those were fine, but the ones in the house were tripped. Seems weird to me.

[aaron.aafjes]

gday mate,
put a 15 amp circuit breaker in and it will be fine.
cheers, aaron:)

[smitthhyy]

Be interested to hear how you go with the die's. I bought the same set and have not had to much luck with them (but I'm very new to that side of woodwork).

As to the power, it sounds like you're shed is on the house fuse in the main box. I've got mine wired with a master fuse in the main box and then a sub-panel in the shed so the only common part between the house and the shed is they share the power line coming onto the property.

[another termite]

zenwood what rateing is the circut breaker at the house and is it a safety switch? Some circuit breakers show you if it is tripping on overload (Due to excessive current to the circuit) or the RCD (Residual current device = safety switch) that is tripping which would lead to a fault in the tool if nothing else causes the same problem on the same circuit.

[Tonyz]

Are you running it through a 4 way power board. I was setting up the new bandy over the weekend, switch it on starts up then cuts out. Pulled the plug from the 4 way board into a double adapter and walla, problem solvered

[Chris Parks]

I am guessing here as I am nor an electrician. The circuit would already have a load on it and when you start your new purchase it ups the load more than the breaker will be prepared to carry. Swap breakers with another circuit as they do sometimes play up, find out what else is on that circuit and see if you can turn any of it off, use another circuit. Beyond that consult someone with qualifications.

[zenwood]

This is getting annoying. THe sanding machine is still regularly tripping the house circuit, even tho the shed has its own circuit breakers. An this is with nothing else in the shed running.

Got the same behaviour when plugging it into a power board, or directly to the power point.

Any suggestions?

[Chris Parks]

Plug it into another circuit in the house and see if it happens. There may be (most probably is) load already on the circuit from the house, not necessarily from the shed.

[Tonyz]

Its talking to you mate. Its saying I dont like this place I want to live on the Eyre Peninsular, down near Pt Lincoln would be really nice :D sorry Ive no other ideas

[Big Shed]

Zen, don't know how big the machine is, but I would take to somewhere else and plug it in and run it there.

If it still trips the circuit breaker ( or is the RCD?), then I would take it back to the supplier and say "fix it or replace it".

I however it doesn't occur away from your house/shed circuits, then the problem is outside the machine and you will have to get a sparky in.

Does it rip when you plug it into a powerpoint in the house?

[zenwood]

It's not a huge machine: the motor is 3/4 horse power (http://ledamachinery.com.au/catalogue/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=74). I run a 3 hp tablesaw from the same powerpoint with no problems at all.

[Tonyz]

Zenwood the time has come to call Leda and get their tech guys out. Its not your house or the shed or other power tools Yell and shout if you have too but its their problem.
JUst a thought can you pull the plug apart and are the red and black the right way round.

[Tex79]

I agree, as it doesn't trip the breaker while using the tablesaw you have eliminated the house/shed wiring as a cause.
Time to call Leda.

Good luck.

[Big Shed]

It's not a huge machine: the motor is 3/4 horse power (http://ledamachinery.com.au/catalogue/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=74). I run a 3 hp tablesaw from the same powerpoint with no problems at all.

Well that elminates the circuits and /or RCDs!

As said before, time to contact Leda.

[woodbe]

Actually, it could still be a RCD, and without a direct answer from Zenwood, that would be my bet, although it is also possible that the start current on the sander is higher than spec.

So, what is going on?

If a circuit breaker (not RCD) in the house is tripping, but the shed has it's own wiring independent of the house:

Whoa. Should not happen. Get the sparky to check this out. The sander may be faulty, but the circuit breakers for the shed are in the shed, right?

Try plugging the sander into another circuit. (not the shed, and not the circuit that is dying in the house) Use an extension lead. If it still trips, sander is a problem, call Leda.

If a RCD in the house trips:

Still should not happen, but it is possible. Does the shed have it's own RCD? In an ideal world, the shed RCD should protect the shed, and the house RCD(s) should protect the house.

RCD's are the wrinkle in the story. It's possible that the sander has more leakage than the table saw and the collective leakage of the sander + other items on the same circuit is enough to trip the RCD.

Zenwood, I'm sure you know this, but RCD's are those gadgets that have text on their front panel saying 'Test Monthly' or something like that. They have a test button which drops out the circuit if you press it...

woodbe.

[zenwood]

The shed has two circuit breakers (inside the shed) labelled 'light' and 'power'. Neither of these are tripped by the sander. Inside the house the RCD is tripped by the sander, but not all the time: about 1 time in 3 or 4. So something is close to a threshold.

The shed was professionally wired by a licensed electrician, so I'm confident it's not the shed wiring.

Where does all this lead us? A definitely faulty sander? Do I gain any useful information by trying to plug the sander into various outlets?

And what does happen when RCDs are tested? Does the power go off for the whole house again? I don't want to go round resetting all the damn oven clocks again! ;|

[woodbe]

The RCD's sense current leakage, and when the total current leakage on the circuit(s) they are protecting exceeds the milliamps the RCD is rated at, it trips. The idea is that they prevent electrocution by detecting a small current to earth. Theoretically, they trip before your heart goes spastic on you. :)

Just about everything on the power circuit leaks a little bit, so any one appliance doesn't get to leak to the whole value of the trip current. When you get a couple of leaky appliances, using any of them together can trip the RCD. I'm sure this kind of behaviour has sent some normally sane people to the looney bin. :D

So, it sounds like you have one RCD for the whole house. If it were me, I'd throw money at it :D and separate the circuits by putting an RCD in the shed and pulling the shed circuit off the house RCD. This way, a cranky kettle is not going to take out the shed, and a wonky sander isn't going to take out the oven clock.

At home, we have separated the circuits into several RCD zones so one can trip without knocking out the whole house, which is painful when it happens. It's especially painful if you are working in the study and an appliance in the kitchen decides to trip the RCD because your kid just poured water in the toaster or something...

Where does all this leave you? In the painful position of having to chase down the problem. If you only have one RCD, plugging the sander into various outlets won't give you any more information (it'll probably trip just the same)

When you test the RCD, it does take out the power, and yes oven clocks are especially painful :(

In any case, it could be that the Leda sander is just too leaky. The electrician can test it, and probably Leda can too. Definitely worth a call.

woodbe.

[Big Shed]

I think this single RCD thing is a SA thing. I used to live in Wattle Park in a 50s house. When we bought it it had an old wooden fuse box with porcelain fuses. As I was going to build a shed I got an electrician in to replace the fuse box and put extra circuits in for the shed. All this went on one RCD, even the shed didn't have a separate RCD.

When we moved to Victoria and built our new house and had the power connected to the shed there were 4 circuit breakers just for the shed. The electrician put in one RCD for each 2 circuit breakers. When I quizzed him he told me that the regs in Victoria require this. Same deal when we completed the house and the sub-board in the house has 1 RCD for every 2 power circuits, only 1 for all light circuits.


Must say that this has proved a good feature, any time something trips the RCD you know it is one of the 2 power circuits it protects. One look at the circuit diagram for those circuits tells you roughly where it is. In the meantime the rest of the house is functioning and all those clocks don't need to be re-set!:2tsup:

When my son in Adelaide has his shed wired recently he insisted on a separate RCD for the shed.

[Chris Parks]

The best way is put a sub-board in the shed. it has circuit breakers and leak detectors on it and can be expanded if neede. I have two sub-boards, one for the shed and one for a seperate living are which originally was my workshop.

[jaspr]

Took delivery of my major show purchase today, and spent a pleasant hour setting it up. ;)


Nice one, zenwood. I need one of those. I've been looking around a bit, but haven't seen the Leda one. It's got a good name - what did it cost (if you don't mind me asking), and why did you choose this one?

[Zed]

get a sparky to test it. your shed prob runs of a cct feed in the house. you'll prob find that the 2 or 3 times it tripped was the time the fridge or other appliance was drawing current in the same cct... i reckon m right here since you describe that sometimes its ok and doesnt trip.:)

What u need is a seperate cct off the main power bar in your meter box to feed your shed machinary power needs. go the whole hog and install a 20Amp cct which will also power most 240v table saws/ bandsaws etc... a 20A cct will prob bave a 30A cct breaker for startup surge current. If u install the wiring youself and get the sparky to do teh connections you'll be sweet and save some money. MAek sure you use rated cable and the min diameter of the copper is 2.5mm for a 20Amp cct. Be careful which sparyky u use becuase if u install a high current cct in your property then the feed from the pole may neeed to be upgraded too... some sparkys will say "she'll be right" and you may get into trouble... get a second opinion...

dont dick around with power.

[zenwood]

Just called Leda and explained the problem. They took my details, and said, "We'll get back to you." Person suggested the motor might not be properly insulated, and a spark is going to the casing resulting in earth leakage current.

jaspr:
the price was a show special of $380 from memory. I chose this unit for sanding the small boxes that I make, for tidying up endgrain, and I might have a go at bandsawn boxes. I chose Leda because they are reasonably close by and seemed to stock a slightly higher quality than Timbecon (most of my machines till now have been Timbecon).

[jaspr]

thanks zenwood

hope they can sort it out for you

[zenwood]

No return call from Leda yet, so I called them up. Their technician was away today, so he will be consulted tomorrow about a plan of action, and will get back to me.

[zenwood]

Still no call from Leda today, so just called them back. They want me to bring in the faulty unit so they can fix it. They're not open on Saturdays, so I won't be able to bring it to them (unless I take time off work). They will see if they can get a person to pick it up from my house next week.

Looks like a waiting game coming up . . .

[Tonyz]

Time for Consumer Affairs or 'Office of fair trading' now theres an oximoron

[woodbe]

If you get stuck zenwood, I could drop it off for you. I drive past there a few times a week. I'm only guessing that it will fit in the boot of a VW Golf though :)

woodbe.

[zenwood]

Thanks for the offer woodbe. If it looks like dragging on into late next week, I'll take you up on it.:) I can always take the top part off the base (a simple matter of removing 4 bolts), which will definitely fit into the boot of a Golf.

[zenwood]

Rattled Leda's cage again today. They said they'd send a bloke round tomorrow to pick up the defective unit. . . .

[zenwood]

As promised, the man from Leda picked up the sander unit this morning. . . .

[Tonyz]

Hey Zenwood, heard from Leda yet?

[zenwood]

No word yet. I'm busy today and tomorrow. If still no word, I'll ring them on Wednesday.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz................

[zenwood]

Called Leda today. They are replacing the switch with another type. Promise of returning the unit tomorrow or Friday.

[Big Shed]

Called Leda today. They are replacing the switch with another type. Promise of returning the unit tomorrow or Friday.

That's very gracious of them! Not the fastest service around is it?:doh:

[zenwood]

Called Leda again today. Said they are still fixing the problem. Got a lot of detail about centrifugal switches, and known issues with motors supplied by the Taiwanese factory. Apparently about half the motors on these machines have this issue(!) I think if I was Leda, I'd get the machines supplied without motors, and order in the motors from elsewhere.

They seem to be rewiring the motor somehow.

Anyway, some progress seems to be being made.

[zenwood]

Another call to Leda. The motor people have constructed some kind of electronic switch to replace the centrifugal one(?). Leda now have to reassemble the motor, test it, and deliver it back, which they promised to do tomorrow.

Any bets?

[woodbe]

That's a bit rugged having to wait so long. You'd think they'd just sling you another one from stock. But then again, maybe they are all broken...

My belt/disc sander looks quite similar, it's a blue colour like carbatec, but it's not a carbatec unit. I bought it at MIK on sale one day. Runs very well (no trips) and I often find that I use it to sand things on the belt with the power off just to flatten them on the nice flat sandpaper base without removing a lot of material.

Anyway, crossing fingers here for you zenwood!

woodbe.

[zenwood]

The unit was dropped off yesterday. Tried it out a few times this morning, and on about the 6th or 7th switch-on, an electrical crack, plus a puff of smoke from the motor, and yet again, tripped the house's circuit breakers.

Any suggestions for what to do next?

[johnc]

I would get straight back to Leda, hopefully this time they might be a bit faster on response. I recall a belt sander bought many years ago that was faulty when new and fixed under warranty but remained a lemon for much of its life, must have been first off the line on a Monday morning. Yours does sound like a faulty motor or wiring issue and the retailer is reputable so there is no reason it will not finally get sorted out.

John

[woodbe]

Start SHOUTING :)

[Big Shed]

The unit was dropped off yesterday. Tried it out a few times this morning, and on about the 6th or 7th switch-on, an electrical crack, plus a puff of smoke from the motor, and yet again, tripped the house's circuit breakers.

Any suggestions for what to do next?

Yep, give them 2 alternatives, replace the unit with another one, obviously this one is a lemon, or refund your money as the unit is unfit for purpose.

I would not consider option 1 and go straight for option 2, by their own admission they have "issues" with this machine/motor.

I think you have shown sufficient patience and forbearance, it is time to move on and deal with a company that can supply a unit that does what it is supposed to do.

[Tonyz]

In a hard place are'nt you. Want to scream and yell but that dos'nt always get the results you want. Id be putting some serious pressure on replacement of the whole unit.
Talk on websites :2tsup: and reputation go a long way.If I was looking for one of these Id now be very wary but then everybodys had problems with some tool or other and then I be too scared to buy anything:wink:

Leda must be embarrased, I mean surely they would, would'nt they, Id be doing a lot better to improve my reputation. Then again not having much comptition in SA maybe they just dont care

Big shed jumped the gun, go for it Zenwood. Show some balls be forceful start jumping

[zenwood]

Got back to Leda yesterday morning, and by the time I got home they had replaced the starting capacitor. They did explain that perhaps my test of 6 or 7 on-off switches of the motor (even though I allowed it to reach speed and come to a stop each time) might have been a bit severe.

I will try it under normal use and see how I go.

Leda have been very good in responding to this problem, curteous, helpful and reasonably prompt. It's just a pity the motors that go with these units don't seem to be a particularly good match.

Would I buy from them again? Interesting question . . .

[Tonyz]

Would I buy from them again? Interesting question . . .


Interesting answer:wink:

[TrevorOwen]

Zenwood

Sorry to hear you have been having problems with machinery. This is the sort of stuff that leaves a nasty taste in the mouth and doesn't go away easily. Having been a Leda customer and not having had any problems makes me very thankful.

Regards
Trevor

[Big Shed]

Got back to Leda yesterday morning, and by the time I got home they had replaced the starting capacitor. They did explain that perhaps my test of 6 or 7 on-off switches of the motor (even though I allowed it to reach speed and come to a stop each time) might have been a bit severe.

I will try it under normal use and see how I go.

Leda have been very good in responding to this problem, curteous, helpful and reasonably prompt. It's just a pity the motors that go with these units don't seem to be a particularly good match.

Would I buy from them again? Interesting question . . .


Let's hope the latest "guess" is on the mark, I somehow doubt it. My understanding is that the starting capacitor provides the "kick" for starting the motor and then takes no further part in the proceedings, other than to "charge up" for the next episode.

Some motors have 2 capacitors, a start and a run capacitor.

I honestly can't see anything wrong in switching a machine on and off that number of times in a relatively short space of time, providing you do as you said and leave it to stop properly.

Time will tell, let's hope you can put this episode behind you and get back to the important things in life, such as woodworking:2tsup:

[Big Shed]

Got back to Leda yesterday morning, and by the time I got home they had replaced the starting capacitor. They did explain that perhaps my test of 6 or 7 on-off switches of the motor (even though I allowed it to reach speed and come to a stop each time) might have been a bit severe.

I will try it under normal use and see how I go.

Leda have been very good in responding to this problem, curteous, helpful and reasonably prompt. It's just a pity the motors that go with these units don't seem to be a particularly good match.

Would I buy from them again? Interesting question . . .


Well, it is more than a week now, how goes it? Problem solvered?

[zenwood]

Well, it is more than a week now, how goes it? Problem solvered?
Yes, the machine is still working, so it's all good.

Now that a bit of time has passed, I'm pleased with the service I got from Leda, and would certainly buy from them again. Would have been a nightmare trying to get a machine fixed with an interstate vendor.