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View Full Version : BETH (kamikaze canoe yawl) -questions for Boatmik



robhosailor
15th Oct 2007, 07:34 AM
Hello Boatmik, and All

I read discussions on this forum and I have found nothing about Beth ...

Few years ago (2000?) my brother Jacek bought plans of Beth intended to build her. He never has made it. Recently he has given it me. I consider to build Beth next spring/summer. I very like her character, cat-yawl rig and 'instant' facility and simplicity :) and ..I expect fantastic performace from her :):):)

I have few questions to the designer:

Problems which I can see are from local specific shallow waters. I want to use this beautiful boat on several "aquatories": small lake (J.Dziekanowskie) near my house, Vistula River (which is largest wild river in Europe), Zegrze Lake (Zalew Zegrzynski) Mazura Lakes and Bay of Puck (shallow, protected part of Bay of Gdansk) and Bay of Vistula which are similar to Lake Alexandrina, but smaller... For sailing on shallow waters I prefer (pivoting, kicking up) centreboard than daggerboard. I prefer boat which can sail and ...tack(!) with half rised centreboard... (many years ago I owned boat -something between dinghy and decked sailing canoe- which she was able to make it !!!

What do you think about changing daggerboard to centreboard for Beth???

Yes! I can see - Beth's daggerboard is hydrodynamic perfect in efficiency, two bulkheds (#2 and #3) with daggercase together are essential structural elements which are very important in construction and technology...

...or need I to decrease mainsail area, go up the boom and decrease of dagger board - for possibility of tacking with half rised dagger board???

...or need I to look for other light sailing canoe??? :no:

...can I build Beth such is that - for my purpose??? :?

What do you think about?

PS: I'm sorry for my English :;

robhosailor
17th Oct 2007, 12:29 AM
Hello Boatmik,




Few years ago (2000?) my brother Jacek bought plans of Beth intended to build her. He never has made it.



I've checked it - it was on january/february 2001 :)

Boatmik
17th Oct 2007, 12:53 AM
Hello Boatmik, and All

I read discussions on this forum and I have found nothing about Beth ...

Few years ago (2000?) my brother Jacek bought plans of Beth intended to build her. He never has made it. Recently he has given it me. I consider to build Beth next spring/summer. I very like her character, cat-yawl rig and 'instant' facility and simplicity :) and ..I expect fantastic performace from her :):):)

I have few questions to the designer:

Problems which I can see are from local specific shallow waters. I want to use this beautiful boat on several "aquatories": small lake (J.Dziekanowskie) near my house, Vistula River (which is largest wild river in Europe), Zegrze Lake (Zalew Zegrzynski) Mazura Lakes and Bay of Puck (shallow, protected part of Bay of Gdansk) and Bay of Vistula which are similar to Lake Alexandrina, but smaller... For sailing on shallow waters I prefer (pivoting, kicking up) centreboard than daggerboard. I prefer boat which can sail and ...tack(!) with half rised centreboard... (many years ago I owned boat -something between dinghy and decked sailing canoe- which she was able to make it !!!

Your English is fine!

A Beth around Gdansk would be very exciting!!!


What do you think about changing daggerboard to centreboard for Beth???

Yes! I can see - Beth's daggerboard is hydrodynamic perfect in efficiency, two bulkheds (#2 and #3) with daggercase together are essential structural elements which are very important in construction and technology...

...or need I to decrease mainsail area, go up the boom and decrease of dagger board - for possibility of tacking with half rised dagger board???

...or need I to look for other light sailing canoe??? :no:Even though the mainsail is too high on this picture of Kanangra it shows that the centreboard can go up a long way because of the angle of the boom and the mast being a long way forward.

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/kanangra1.jpg

The Kanangra picture shows the centreboard being up over half way. If you have a good enough sailing background to handle Beth you will know that you cannot trim (pull in) the sails so tightly when the centreboard is this high - you need to keep the speed quite high. If the speed drops the boat will slide sideways.

I think that Beth can be sailed quite well in this way with the centreboard at 600mm depth (and 300mm above the deck) - I do have a second shorter centreboard for sailing in shallow water too - it is around 600 deep in the water so when pulled up with 300mm above the deck there is only 300mm in the water - but it means a loss of performance.

Here is a picture of my BETH going upwind.
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/Beth8.jpg
The gap between the boom and the deck is not big, but it gets a lot bigger when you tack as the mast straightens and lifts the boom higher when the mainsheet is eased as the boat tacks.

The longer board has a much higher performance.


...can I build Beth such is that - for my purpose??? :?

What do you think about?You could build Beth with a swinging centreboard but it will come a long way back into the cockpit. Maybe half the cockpit length.

My feeling is to make a second centreboard for shallower water but use the long one when you want to go quickly.

Best wishes
Michael

robhosailor
17th Oct 2007, 03:38 AM
A Beth around Gdansk would be very exciting!!!



Yes I think the same :) (especially in strong wind) :wink:



Even though the mainsail is too high on this picture of Kanangra it shows that the centreboard can go up a long way because of the angle of the boom and the mast being a long way forward.

/cut/

The Kanangra picture shows the centreboard being up over half way. If you have a good enough sailing background to handle Beth you will know that you cannot trim (pull in) the sails so tightly when the centreboard is this high - you need to keep the speed quite high. If the speed drops the boat will slide sideways.



Yes, offcourse! I'm experienced in small boat sailing and I expect this kind of behaviour... smaller centreboard area = more of "slide sideways" and tacking is more difficult (impossible sometimes) and I need "pull in" sails more loose. Boat will sail not to close to wind as with "normal" centreboard...




I think that Beth can be sailed quite well in this way with the centreboard at 600mm depth (and 300mm above the deck) - I do have a second shorter centreboard for sailing in shallow water too - it is around 600 deep in the water so when pulled up with 300mm above the deck there is only 300mm in the water - but it means a loss of performance.
/cut/
The gap between the boom and the deck is not big, but it gets a lot bigger when you tack as the mast straightens and lifts the boom higher when the mainsheet is eased as the boat tacks.

The longer board has a much higher performance.

You could build Beth with a swinging centreboard but it will come a long way back into the cockpit. Maybe half the cockpit length.

My feeling is to make a second centreboard for shallower water but use the long one when you want to go quickly.



I considered smaller centreboard (daggerboard) too, but for small daggerboard area probably lower aspect ratio is better - delta shape wing or quarter of circle (better shapes for swinging centreboard) (?)

Swinging centreboard is better when boat is touching of rock-bottom...
but I'm not experienced boat builder - your building manual is very exact and I can't to change algorithm written there.

I will consider again additional shorter daggerboard (that's good idea!:2tsup:) - without changes of essential structural elements (two bulkheads and daggercase).

And again: I like your Beth very much - she is so beautiful!!! :):):)

When I will decide to start of construction I will send info for you and photos of progress :)

Boatmik
17th Oct 2007, 04:08 PM
Yes I think the same :) (especially in strong wind) :wink:

Yes, offcourse! I'm experienced in small boat sailing and I expect this kind of behaviour... smaller centreboard area = more of "slide sideways" and tacking is more difficult (impossible sometimes) and I need "pull in" sails more loose. Boat will sail not to close to wind as with "normal" centreboard...

When I first sailed Beth on the tiny lake at Mt Barker I couldn't tack her well at all. I sailed straight across the lake and straight into the opposite bank!!!

But she is like some high performance boats - you can't simply use the rudder to steer. To tack you need to release the mainsheet a half metre to let her steer up towards the wind. When the wind fills the other side of the sail you need to tighten the sheet for a second or two before easing it to the normal windward sailing position.

Without using the mainsail this way she will steer but it is not quick and accurate - but use the sails with the rudder and she is very manouverable. And this is the point - she steers and tacks well with half centreboard if you use this method too.

Most top level sailors use this method of steering with the sails as much as possible too.


I considered smaller centreboard (daggerboard) too, but for small daggerboard area probably lower aspect ratio is better - delta shape wing or quarter of circle (better shapes for swinging centreboard) (?)

Swinging centreboard is better when boat is touching of rock-bottom...
but I'm not experienced boat builder - your building manual is very exact and I can't to change algorithm written there.

I will consider again additional shorter daggerboard (that's good idea!:2tsup:) - without changes of essential structural elements (two bulkheads and daggercase).

I have sailed in Lightweight sharpies (the light Australian version of the 12sq metre sharpie) with a quarter circle type centreboard. The disadvantage is that it comes up VERY high above the deck when the board is fully retracted. This might be a problem but I could have a look at the drawing for you to see if it is feasible. It won't be as efficient as the deeper foil.

The shorter foil will be OK if you don't sail quite so high upwind and then you can still use the deeper one when you want to do some racing - BETH is a great boat for traditional boat races!!! Actually I have done very well against modern boats too with the deeper board in place.


And again: I like your Beth very much - she is so beautiful!!! :):):)

When I will decide to start of construction I will send info for you and photos of progress :)

I look forward to seeing some pictures - the ones I have were downloaded from a friend's computer and they are not very high quality.

And, yes, she is beautiful - even out of the water - but looks perfect when sailing. I have had more comments about her than any of my other boats - people want to come and have a closer look and then there is the look of shock from people who think that flat bottomed boats cannot sail well!!!

Best wishes
Michael

robhosailor
17th Oct 2007, 07:39 PM
Hello,




But she is like some high performance boats - you can't simply use the rudder to steer. To tack you need to release the mainsheet a half metre to let her steer up towards the wind. When the wind fills the other side of the sail you need to tighten the sheet for a second or two before easing it to the normal windward sailing position.

Without using the mainsail this way she will steer but it is not quick and accurate - but use the sails with the rudder and she is very manouverable. And this is the point - she steers and tacks well with half centreboard if you use this method too.

Most top level sailors use this method of steering with the sails as much as possible too.



And Beth is cat-cetch(?)(cat-yawl ?) and mizzen is taking part in sail area. It's some different than cat and sloop I think so.





The shorter foil will be OK if you don't sail quite so high upwind and then you can still use the deeper one when you want to do some racing - BETH is a great boat for traditional boat races!!! Actually I have done very well against modern boats too with the deeper board in place.



Typical racing is not my favorite, but I want to sail on speed with chance of outstrip of modern and traditional boats.
I have a background but I haven't permanent training in small boat sailing and I expect quick capsize too :;:;:; !!! So that's part of this sport :).





I look forward to seeing some pictures - the ones I have were downloaded from a friend's computer and they are not very high quality.



I promisse! (if I decide to start of construction - I'm close to this point):)





And, yes, she is beautiful - even out of the water - but looks perfect when sailing. I have had more comments about her than any of my other boats - people want to come and have a closer look and then there is the look of shock from people who think that flat bottomed boats cannot sail well!!!



I heard the same.:wink:

Many years ago (1966-1980) we owned almost flat bottomed plywood small boat ("something between sailing canoe and dinghy": LOA = 4.6 m, BOA = 1.25 m S (mainsailil + jib) = 7 sqm - see attachements!!! she was similar to shown P7 designed before 2 World War by M.Plucinski - note dotted line for older/original version! - famous Polish designer, probably our boat was redesigned by builder.). She was very good for flat waters (without waves) rivers, tiny and small lakes for her shape of bow. In moderate and srong wind she sailed in speed planning well from Force 3-4. My brother with friend crossed largest Mazurian lake Sniardwy in Force 7 but it was very danger and difficult. I have survived violent storm on Zegrze Lake (by the reason of my stupidity!!!:oo:) and I know - she was not boat for chops and rough waters. But she was great for rivers and small lakes in strong wind. She was able to tack with half rised centreboard and to sail well with retracted cenreboard (she had external timber - keel, H circa 4-5 cm).

Boatmik
18th Oct 2007, 01:37 AM
Up at Duck Flat today I found two more photos of Beth demonstrating her fine appearance both

Off the water
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2150/1599911847_d2de2a6781.jpg

And on the water
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2288/1599911441_c3bb83a014.jpg

The sailing shot gives you some idea of how far the centreboard can come up without interfering with the boom. It is also a good shot of her reefed.

MIK

robhosailor
18th Oct 2007, 02:16 AM
Hello MIK,


Up at Duck Flat today I found two more photos of Beth demonstrating her fine appearance both

/cut/

The sailing shot gives you some idea of how far the centreboard can come up without interfering with the boom. It is also a good shot of her reefed.



Thank you for great (VERRRRRRY NICE) photos!