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BobL
3rd November 2007, 11:16 PM
Here small something I whipped up a couple of weeks back to lift logs and only got a chance to try it out today. I usually use a smaller forklift loader to place the logs on some blocks to get them off the ground and on a bit of a slope. After milling a couple of slabs I like to lift one or both ends of the log further. I could use the loader but often it is being used for something else, and besides I wanted something mobile that I could take with me up bush. I have used a conventional hydraulic car jack but you have to get the logs a reasonable way above the ground first and they generally have a limited range of lift.

The "thing" is an adapter that loosely bolts onto the lifting claw of a hi-lift jack and goes underneath the end of a log allowing it to be lifted while addition blocks are added.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=59370&stc=1&d=1194130738

The adapter is made from a couple of scraps of 1/4" angle iron welded into a box shape together with two main main cross pieces. The two short side pieces can be adjusted using wingnuts along the length of the cross pieces to suit the log diameter.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=59371&stc=1&d=1194130738

The adapter slides onto the main jack claw and if required can be held in place by a bolt, or the adapter can be screwed onto the end of a log.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=59372&stc=1&d=1194130738

This shows the typical milling angle and extent of lift I like to used. It looks a little silly on this little log but it should be able to lift one end of a 30" hardwood without any trouble.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=59373&stc=1&d=1194130738

I only milled this short boxtree today as I was sorting out and stacking stuff into the Seatainer (http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=797158&postcount=27). After the second slab I noticed that a couple of the cutters had been badly dulled and I thought I must have hit something but couldn't see anthing till I squirted water onto the first slab and found a 4" nail that the chain had cut right through. It's strange that it didn't really affect the cutting speed that much so I finished the log with the dull chain.

Wild Dingo
4th November 2007, 12:48 AM
Hey Bob??



Bob mate you there still?




ooooooh Bob!!




you sorta forgot something mate :doh:


uuummmm eeerrr some pics would be good eh? :U



Funny about that seatainer idea mate... was wondering how your timber stash is gonna handle it when the heat gets up around 35 or more its gonna be more like 55 or more inside that thing unless you got some way of cooling it down that is... thinking most HOT days that will be upon us soon I hope theres little to no breeze for the vents to have any real effect at least till late arvo so its gonna cook the timber isnt it?

BobL
4th November 2007, 10:40 AM
RE: Missing Pics: Sorry shane - should be fixed now.


Funny about that seatainer idea mate... was wondering how your timber stash is gonna handle it when the heat gets up around 35 or more its gonna be more like 55 or more inside that thing unless you got some way of cooling it down that is... thinking most HOT days that will be upon us soon I hope theres little to no breeze for the vents to have any real effect at least till late arvo so its gonna cook the timber isnt it?

Let's start with a picture.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=59380&stc=1&d=1194132714

Two whirlybirds on top to let the hot air out and 6 vents on bottom sides to let outside air in, so while some breeze is good it is not essential for this thing to work. Yep, the air inside the seatainer will get hot, bloody hot, so it expands and rises to the top of the seatainer and out of the whirlybirds (it doesn't matter if they're being turned by the breeze or not), to be replaced by slightly cooler air from outside comming in through the bottom side vents. As long as there is enough air moving through for the moisture to escape it should be OK.

Anyway before I put too much more wood into it I will do some some temperature and humidity tests. At work we have these great little gizmos that look like PC memory sticks that you leave in the location where and for how long you want to test. Then you bring them back to base and plug them into your PC and they tell you the temp and humidty during the time they were on site. I will put one inside and one outside and leave them there for a week or two and compare the results. Hopefully that will tell me if I need to add fans to assist air movement.

Cheers

DJ’s Timber
4th November 2007, 12:40 PM
And where would would someone purchase these gizmo things and for how much Bob?

martrix
4th November 2007, 01:14 PM
cool. Handy being employed at a workplace where they have great toys you can use hey?:2tsup:

You will have a shipload of timber once you fill that sucker up Bob! Crikey, I might even have to buy some off ya!:D.......:C

Wild Dingo
4th November 2007, 01:47 PM
Cheers Bob... all is revealed now thanks :2tsup:

Great idea easy and works so a great idea!! :2tsup:

Soooo that crooked bit at the back right side... you know the big bent long there... whatcha gonna do with that? I was thinkin if a bloke were to be buildin a fine big boat that would be nigh on perfeck for the stem :; Of course then that fella would have to have access to a fine ships bandsaw too... ah well but then I do recall a bloke building a whopping great wooden boat in the bush over east was like you Bob... you know adapted stuff for his needs or invents stuff that sorta thing... an he built a ships bandsaw... so about that crooked bit :;

Do you mind if we follow up with that temp thing? Ive still so far got the 40ft seatainer out the back and if your idea works then instead of a finishing room it can become a timber drying shed.

Actually thinking about it... you could if you had access to them stick a couple of fans on those vents and belt some air through say 3 times a day for half an hour may help?... or just set them to work with the wind if it comes? I dont know Im just thinking out loud here mate and worryin about all those slabs youve whacked in there instead of bringing them down here for me to mind for you :doh: ah well

Great ideas both of them Bob well done mate :2tsup:

BobL
4th November 2007, 02:16 PM
And where would would someone purchase these gizmo things and for how much Bob?

This is what we use, http://www.tinytag.info/products/ . They are not cheap because they are designed for operating in fairly to very rugged environments like outdoors, or to be thrown into a box of oranges in Chile and recovered in a warehouse in Europe. That way the buyer can know the likely T/H history of the products.

As usual the prices are overblown in Oz, see http://www.omniinstruments.com.au/products/product/moredetails/tinytag.id44.html
The specs on the ones we have are, 32000 readings, 1s to 12 day sampling rate, Temp Range -25 to +85 deg C and Humidity Range 0-100% and they cost ~$450. RadioSpares also sell the tinytag and tinyview stuff.

BUT

For less rugged enviroments and not quite the same specs as the Tinytag stuff, RS sell a neat little T/H USB sensor for $153. Look up Lascar EL-USB-2 RH/TEMP, USB DATA LOGGER

Specs:
USB Interface for set-up and data download
16,000 readings
Supplied with: Software and battery.
Measurement range 0 to 100% RH -35 to +80°C
Logging rate 10 sec. To 12 hours

If you have a secure location where you can also locate a PC nearby you can just run a long usb cable direct to the measuring point and use dedicated T/H sensors. This should be cheaper. Can't find a local example but see http://www.audon.co.uk/th1.html.

These things are really cool gizmos.

Cheers

BobL
4th November 2007, 02:47 PM
Soooo that crooked bit at the back right side... you know the big bent long there... whatcha gonna do with that? I was thinkin if a bloke were to be buildin a fine big boat that would be nigh on perfeck for the stem :; Of course then that fella would have to have access to a fine ships bandsaw too... ah well but then I do recall a bloke building a whopping great wooden boat in the bush over east was like you Bob... you know adapted stuff for his needs or invents stuff that sorta thing... an he built a ships bandsaw... so about that crooked bit :;

That is one interesting log being about 40" wide at the widest part - it's a red gum, however it's low on my milling priority at the moment - I have dozens of easier logs piled up in the yard here to tackle first. I was thinking of to cut it in half and then milling a couple of 36"+ wide slabs out of the wide part. Meanwhile it's not going anywhere.

Cheers

BobL
4th November 2007, 04:13 PM
For less rugged enviroments and not quite the same specs as the Tinytag stuff, RS sell a neat little T/H USB sensor for $153. Look up Lascar EL-USB-2 RH/TEMP, USB DATA LOGGER


Procon Technologies have the same thing for $148.50 + $9.90 delivery
Or the EL-USB-3 (32k readings) plus better resolution etc for $176

Arthur Dyason
4th November 2007, 04:31 PM
BobL

nice addon for the highlift.

Just a comment on safety!!!! you should include a chain which could hold the log onto the adapter. You dont want a log falling on your foot from that height.


arthur

BobL
4th November 2007, 06:42 PM
BobL

nice addon for the highlift.

Just a comment on safety!!!! you should include a chain which could hold the log onto the adapter. You dont want a log falling on your foot from that height.


Thanks Arthur, I have no illusions about what damage even a half ton log can do - I spent too long as a kid around saw mills. The primary risk using the highlift is not the log slipping off the adapter but the whole thing tipping over sideways. To reduce this risk I will only be lifting the log about 60 mm at a time before slipping a 50 x 100 mm plank underneath. This way if the planks are long enough the most the log can tip is about 70 mm before it contacts a plank. Over the course of milling the log, I probably only lift it about every 2 or 3 slabs so that will be around 3 - 4 times per log.

I'm also thinking of adding a wider base and some side arms to the highlift (as per picture) so it can't easily tip. Might add some teeth to the adapter so that it grips the log better too.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=59420&stc=1&d=1194161664

Tonyz
4th November 2007, 08:59 PM
[QUOTE=Wild Dingo;

Actually thinking about it... you could if you had access to them stick a couple of fans on those vents and belt some air through say 3 times a day for half an hour may help?... QUOTE]

Dingo I have used that idea for over 6 years now. Back in Adelaide and now here, 2 wirlygigs in the roof and mounted underneath a cheap bathroom air extrator.
Sometimes Ive gone into the double garage thats been shut up and even with wirlys its been stiffling switched the fans on and dropped the temp about 5-10 degrees.
Gets my vote

BobL
4th November 2007, 10:19 PM
[QUOTE=Wild Dingo;

Actually thinking about it... you could if you had access to them stick a couple of fans on those vents and belt some air through say 3 times a day for half an hour may help?... QUOTE]

Dingo I have used that idea for over 6 years now. Back in Adelaide and now here, 2 wirlygigs in the roof and mounted underneath a cheap bathroom air extrator.
Sometimes Ive gone into the double garage thats been shut up and even with wirlys its been stiffling switched the fans on and dropped the temp about 5-10 degrees.
Gets my vote

Sounds good, I am considering using something like these fans and have them connected up to two humidity sensors so they switch on when the humidity on the inside of the seatainer is greater than the outside.

BobL
6th November 2007, 03:11 PM
Procon Technologies have the same thing for $148.50 + $9.90 delivery
Or the EL-USB-3 (32k readings) plus better resolution etc for $176

Electus have a similar thing for $100 . . . . .see

http://www.electusdistribution.com.au/productView.asp?ID=9806&CATID=&keywords=logger&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&SUBCATID=

oldbob13
6th November 2007, 10:14 PM
Hi BobL
At the risk of being howled down I fear that the uncontrolled dehumidifiction of this seatainer is going to waste your wonderful stash of timber.
My understanding of controlled drying is to maintain a steady temperature whilst dehumidifing the surounding air at a controlled rate so as not to exceed the capacity of the timber to lose moisture without degrade (splitting).
My vision would be to insulate the container, have small fans inside for circulation, a humidifier for when the humidity drops too fast and fans in the bottom of the container to daily vent a small volume of air to the outside to gradully lose humidity.
I'll go and crawl back under my rock now
Sincerely BobT

BobL
6th November 2007, 11:53 PM
Hi BobL
At the risk of being howled down I fear that the uncontrolled dehumidifiction of this seatainer is going to waste your wonderful stash of timber.
My understanding of controlled drying is to maintain a steady temperature whilst dehumidifing the surounding air at a controlled rate so as not to exceed the capacity of the timber to lose moisture without degrade (splitting).
My vision would be to insulate the container, have small fans inside for circulation, a humidifier for when the humidity drops too fast and fans in the bottom of the container to daily vent a small volume of air to the outside to gradully lose humidity.
I'll go and crawl back under my rock now
Sincerely BobT

It sounds like you are referring to designs requiring dedicated heating used in cooler north american and europe environments where there are cool to low outside temperatures for many days of the year.

My current setup is basically the same as air drying in a shed exposed to ambient air temps, except the maximum temps reached during the day will be higher so that should speed up the drying. Solar kilns should generate temperatures of 12 to 18oC higher than ambient (even more is be better) and I expect this in my seatainer. Nearly all solar designs constantly exchange air with the outside as a moisture loss and mechanism - none of the appear concerned about getting them too hot.

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Solar_Kiln_Designs_2.html is an excellent article and shows a number (26?) of solar designs. Some of these are just very simple glass or black plastic boxes to trap solar heat and a big fan to keep the air circulating inside the box with small manually controlled vents to dump the excess moisture. In this article one such design based in Brisbane claims 2" Rose mahogany goes from 38% MC to 12% MC in 72 days - now that's cookin!

A constant temperature is not essential unless you want to further speed up the drying. In fact this it is a plus for solar kilns since it reduced checking because, "Solar drying can result in high quality lumber, primarily because the moisture gradients in the lumber are allowed to equalize at night when drying is not taking place." [http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/for/for55/for55.htm]

Insulating is still potential useful (although few tropical and temperate zone solar kilns bother) because what is undesirable is too rapid a temperature change and I have in mind some days when it's around 18oC in the early morning (and that's what it will be inside the container) and then 6 hours later it reaches 45oC and it will probably get to over 60oC in the container. That's a pretty tough ask of a big piece of wood. All the insulation would do is slow down the rate at this would be reached by a short while.

Probably what I should do is just block the whirlybirds down on really hot days and open them up on cooler days. Once the seatainer fills up I will also need a recirculating fan inside to keep dead zones from forming.

Anyway I do not plan to put my whole stash inside seatainer and hope for the best. For a start I cannot fit it all in there and some of my stash is already dry (milled 13 years ago - not by me). I also have two temp/RH sensor and a MC meters waiting to conduct some experiments on the seatainer - just need to get organized. This will be reported on in this forum.

Cheers

TTIT
7th November 2007, 12:29 AM
Only one way to stop a container overheating in this climate and that's a fly roof:;. A lot of the contractors out here set them up as site sheds and offices and once you fit a fly roof with a decent gap of at least a foot, you'll never look back :U

Good idea with the lifter Bob!:2tsup:

BobL
7th November 2007, 01:05 AM
Only one way to stop a container overheating in this climate and that's a fly roof:;. A lot of the contractors out here set them up as site sheds and offices and once you fit a fly roof with a decent gap of at least a foot, you'll never look back :U

Good idea with the lifter Bob!:2tsup:

Thanks TITT.

RE: Fly roof - I've installed one before on a demountable lab but it didn't seem to help much (maybe 1 or 2 oC)- but I think it was only 6" above the roof. We also did have 1200 cfm of external air going through it continuously so it was always well equilibrated with the external air temp at all times.

I do have the steel and zincalume to make a fly roof for the seatainer awating in my back yard if required. The thing is I want about 20oC above ambient inside the seatainer anyway and will await and see what the sensors say.

BobL
19th January 2010, 02:02 AM
Upgrade to the Hi-Lift jack based log lifter.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127207&stc=1&d=1263826828

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127208&stc=1&d=1263826828

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127209&stc=1&d=1263826828

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127210&stc=1&d=1263826998

Advantages
- doesn't tip over
- don't have to dig under jack to get started
- packs away in compact form for easier travel.

Travis Edwards
19th January 2010, 10:09 AM
I like the final version Bob. just one thing I was wondering, have you had any trouble with the log wanting to scoot away when you lift one end? I know that generally it will dig into the ground a bit and often it is enough to hold it, but I have seen where i have lifted some logs that as you get the end up it trys to move away forwards.

I guess it could be easily overcome by driving a bit of a spike into the ground at the end opposite to where you are lifting.

TTIT
19th January 2010, 11:13 AM
Looks like it takes you nearly as long as me to get around to finishing some of your projects Bob :U. Very nifty gadget you've put together - looks much more stable than the original - well done :2tsup:

Sigidi
19th January 2010, 11:32 AM
Hey Bob, I'd be very interested in how much you would charge to make one of these for me, the idea of not having to dig under the log first is very appealing - I just finished a little job for us which had a few large logs on it and the bottom flitches where just to big to get up, so we've lost around 3 tonne over 6-7 bottom flitches, but the prospect of digging each one out and messing around with my little bottle jack lifting it, chocking it, re-setting the bottle jack, lifting again, just to get my bolsters under one end - then repeat it all at the other end :(

pjt
19th January 2010, 11:58 AM
Not wanting to tread on Bob's toes but I could do one for u Al, I'd do one for myself while at it, if Bob doesn't mind:U
Pete

Sigidi
19th January 2010, 02:04 PM
I have to admit Pete, I have a mate locally who is a Metal Guru, who could probably do one from Bob's pics, but the mechanics and geometry Bob has already done R&D on is why I asked Bob about making one. A bit cheeky, but he has done all the work - and his stuff is real pretty:D

Although having said this, I'd be asking for a colour change on my order if possible - anyone willing to guess what colour?

Woodwould
19th January 2010, 02:18 PM
...I'd be asking for a colour change on my order if possible - anyone willing to guess what colour?

Going by your avatar, Baby Pink?

Sigidi
19th January 2010, 03:23 PM
NO, Damit MAN!! Greeeeeen!

LUCAS GREEN!!!!


Dontchya know anything???:D

(Actually while we are on the subject - might have a nice surprise coming for you fellas in a couple of weeks:o)

BobL
19th January 2010, 03:30 PM
Absolutely go for it guys. Here's a set of details pics I took while making it including a plan of just the Triangluar/Outrigger frame. Welding looks scummy but based on experience I know it will hold.

Unit breaks down into 3 bits for transport.
Blue/Black log end clamp. Brown Triangluar/Outrigger frame, and the Jack itself
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127210&stc=1&d=1263826998
Blue stuff is 1.6 mm x 30 mm SHS
Brown is 45 mm x 6 mm angle
Black stuff is rounded corner 1.6 mm x 30 mm SHS

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127245&stc=1&d=1263874477

Outrigger Foot of triangular frame.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127244&stc=1&d=1263874477\
The outrigger does not need to be very strong. As long as it is big enough, very little side force is needed to hold the jack in a vertical position provided it loaded in a vertical position.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127243&stc=1&d=1263874477
The hooks can rotate and open wider to grab up a log end that is on the ground so no clearing under the log to get a grip on it. The hook ends are double gusseted 3 mm steel plate so should be very strong. The top clamp position is movable vertically and unless the hooks are spread this is about the closest grip that can be created without packing.

Top clamp is a 3/4" bolt
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127241&stc=1&d=1263874477
The position locking bolt is threaded direct into the back of the fat gusset.

Jacknose detail.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127242&stc=1&d=1263874477
The black vertical post of the log clamp sits over a fat square steel peg on the jack nose lifter adapter.
This positive engagement means the jack cannot slip out from under the log clamp. I also used square shanked bolt ends to reduce the need for two spanners when adjusting.

BobL
19th January 2010, 03:33 PM
NO, Damit MAN!! Greeeeeen!

LUCAS GREEN!!!!


Dontchya know anything???:D

The reason I use such a violent colour (It's Dulux, Volcano Orange) is because these things are dangerous - I wanna be able to see thaty jack handle before it flys up and hits me in the privates :D

BobL
19th January 2010, 03:36 PM
I like the final version Bob. just one thing I was wondering, have you had any trouble with the log wanting to scoot away when you lift one end? I know that generally it will dig into the ground a bit and often it is enough to hold it, but I have seen where i have lifted some logs that as you get the end up it trys to move away forwards.

I guess it could be easily overcome by driving a bit of a spike into the ground at the end opposite to where you are lifting.

I haven't had this problem at all so far. Maybe if it was being on something smooth like smooth concrete?

Woodwould
19th January 2010, 04:01 PM
NO, Damit MAN!! Greeeeeen!

LUCAS GREEN!!!!

Baby Pink would be nice all the same. You won't leave it behind in the sawdust or grass if it's pink.

jmk89
19th January 2010, 04:07 PM
As someone who puts things down and can't find them next minute - I vote for Yellow and black diagonal stripes (it works for me)

dai sensei
19th January 2010, 10:01 PM
Dam you Bob, how am I supposed to do any milling when you keep giving me fantastic improvements to be made :U:U Mind you, can't lift a thing at the moment due to wrist, so stuck with just pens for now :doh:

Fantastic as usual, what can I say :2tsup:

pjt
19th January 2010, 11:46 PM
I thought it would be green then thought it would have to be Lucas green:wink:
At the moment I am painting everything fire engine red.... I got a dented 4l can of epoxy rust proof paint at Bunnies a while back...cheap...so if I made the lifter for u Al it'd be RED:q be a nice contrast tho with the Lucas green
Peter

BobL
20th January 2010, 01:56 AM
Cheers Fellas.

I had the plans in my head for almost a year but no chance till new year to make the unit. When I finally got around to it I made the thing in about 4 hours - then painting it took place over 3 days, undercoat, topcoat, final cot etc.

gmack
20th January 2010, 04:12 AM
Great idea Bob.
Just one question....how do put the CS mill on the log to start the first cut?

Sigidi
20th January 2010, 11:09 AM
GMack, I reckon Bob would probably block up the log, then take the lifter away......just a thought??:D

BobL
20th January 2010, 11:22 AM
GMack, I reckon Bob would probably block up the log, then take the lifter away......just a thought??:D

Correct.

Burnsy
20th January 2010, 01:35 PM
(Actually while we are on the subject - might have a nice surprise coming for you fellas in a couple of weeks:o)


Is it green and silver and cuts 10 inches:D Money changed hands on my 8-30 yesterday so I no longer own a lucas due to time constraints but when I retire and have time there will be a shed with a 10-30 in it:2tsup:

Sigidi
20th January 2010, 04:52 PM
Money changed hands on my 8-30 yesterday so I no longer own a lucas due to time constraints but when I retire and have time there will be a shed with a 10-30 in it:2tsup:

Whoah!! Mike!!! Are you kidding? really, you found another home for your 8-30? Geese am I reading right?