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reuelt
8th November 2003, 09:28 AM
I found that High Speed Steel (HSS) turning tools has been highly recommended for Wood Turning even in this forum. But they are being compared to cheap carbon steel turning tools.

Are tungsten carbide or TCT type turning tools available?

(In routing we also choose better Tungsten Carbide or TCT bits over cheaper HSS bits.)

Alex
8th November 2003, 11:40 PM
Instead of answer I'd like to add another question to this thread.

What about highly recomended "Hamlet" 2060 chisels and their quality, reliability and durability.

Come on good and wise guys, give us some advice

Beforehand grateful

Alex

DarrylF
8th November 2003, 11:53 PM
Reuel,

TCT is only really used in hollowing tools and the like - enough carbide in a gouge etc to allow the reshaping etc we all do would be stunningly expensive I would think :)

Alex,

Hamlet make brilliant turning tools in my experience. I've been turning about a year, and have a collection of probably 20 or so tools by now. 5 were from a small Record set - rubbish but I'm not afraid to reshape them for special purposes. About 8 are P & N - OK, but poorly finished and don't hold an edge long. The rest are Hamlet. Absolutely brilliant. I can get & keep a great edge, they don't overheat as easily when grinding, very nice to hold & use.

q9
9th November 2003, 12:58 AM
TCT is expensive and more suited to smaller, replaceable parts. Turning tools generally last years anyway, and are reasonably easy to sharpen...even easier if you buy a jig. So there isn't a compelling reason to make them TCT. In fact it would be less desirable because you would lose the ability to sharpen them as you do HSS.

I have read some in depth discussion on the development of router bits, and they are quite different (to say the least) to turning tools in their requirements. So not really a good comparison. If I ever find the link I'll post it.

Jeff
9th November 2003, 05:02 AM
Since you mention the cost of the tools, I'm going to guess you are at least considering the price as a factor in your decision to buy TCT or HSS.

I use some pretty basic tools, mostly not HSS or TCT. I think the tradeoff comes in the ability to keep the tools sharp, what is the cost in time plus the expense of the tools to sharpen HSS or TCT? I touch up my tools every day I use them, sometimes 3 or 4 times. But, that is only the tools I'm using, which for most work are only a straight scew, rounded scew and 1/2" gouge. Each time I sharpen a tool it takes me 2 or 3 minutes. Once a month or so I put the tools to a grinder wheel that I run in my three jaw chuck. Then they go to the sanding disc on my dremel for some buffing up. This process for the "set of tools" is about an hour at most. Lastly, I keep them tuned up daily with a set of diamond hones on 2" X 5" plastic backing, to keep a burr. The burr allows me to get a good finishing cut. Very, very simple, fast, and very sharp. For me it works. A bit primitive compared to the top of the line stuff. I rarely need to sand my work, and save time and money there. For me the tradeoff is good. A little sharpening, no sanding!

HSS and TCT do stay sharp much longer. If you are doing long production runs, they are very much a good tradeoff, you can put a second or third set of cutters into a rotation and have a set ready, a set being sharpened. I'd say HSS for your most used three or fours tools is a great start. If you are planning production just go for the TCT. But research everything about sharpening and tip replacements.

And I always say this: Take care of your face and lungs first, these are the most important tools. Lots of info about this exists on this site, search it out!

reuelt
9th November 2003, 07:31 AM
A friend of mine has a CNC wood turning factory. He makes his own TCT tools using a diamond grinder.

He told me that TCT is best. Why? All his turnings are so accurately and smoothly cut that no sanding is ever required.

I have seen his lathe and turning products. NO sanding necessary - what a trade secret!


HSS is suitable for wood but not even suitable for manufactured boards (plywood, MDF or chipboard etc..)

Is is possible that HSS is just being promoted by Sheffield & other traditional Industrial cities for commmercial reasons?
"Let that Grind, grind, grind ... the HSS told off in their unskilled ways and they will have to buy more tools and abrasives and training". Sorry - That's only a joke!!

q9
9th November 2003, 01:18 PM
Yes, that was the jist of the info I was talking about - TCT for routers give much nicer, cleaner cuts while lasting longer.

But then, CNC wood turning tooling MUCH different to hand tools.

My father is a fitter/machinist by trade, and most of the cutting tools he made for turning steel were made from HSS. All the drill bits out in the shed are marked HSS too. Theres a pattern forming here.

I think really it just comes down to cost/benefit. HSS does the job remarkably well, and anything else will just cost lots more with little tangible benefit.

reuelt
15th November 2003, 07:16 AM
I found this link about Carbide Lathe Chisels.

http://www.thingswestern.com/generic22.html

Are these available in Australia?? No so expensive when compared to HSS Lathe Chisels from Sheffield.

DanP
15th November 2003, 05:04 PM
HSS is less brittle than TCT hence the use in more applications. With Tungsten Carbide Tipped tools, just the tip is tungsten. The rest of the tool is normally either just plain steel or cast iron to give the tool some give. If you have whole tools made of tungsten the tendency would be for them to shatter. I am a fitter and turner myself and in my experience, The majority of tools used are HSS (almost all). Tungsten tools are generally used more for heavy cutting or alloyed steels. High speed steel is hard and holds an edge (not as long as tungsten) but is not brittle, hence its preference for use in machining apps.

Dan

reuelt
16th November 2003, 08:42 AM
Thanks for info about HSS.

What about the "ASP HSS" which Hamlet claimed to hold the edge 3 times longer than the HSS which already hold the edge 5 times longer than Carbon steel?

The ASP turning tool cost 150% M2 HSS turning tool. Is it worth it?


Using my "railed platform (see thread)" I am able to test the "TCT tile cutter" as a turning tool.

I bought 10 of those for $1 each from a Pensioner at his garage sale.

It works better than even an ASP turrning tool I think.

DanP
17th November 2003, 03:31 PM
Reuelt,

The new fangled tools, Hamlets ASP and others like the powder metal (can't recall brand) are basiccaly just high speed steel carbide. Carbide is the process of binding small (miniscule) particles of the material in question (usually Tungsten) and bond them together under high pressure and heat. In the case of the new types of turning tools they are going through the same process with steel or alloyed steel. The ASP tools are high speed steel alloyed with Cobalt. Also, they claim that they last up to six times longer without sharpening. I this is the case then they would certainly be worth the extra. Once I'm a bit more proficient (turning and sharpening)I will be investing in some.

Dan

reuelt
17th November 2003, 05:43 PM
Thanks everybody.

I will certainly go for the ASP Turning Tools since I think I cannot get TCT turning tools in Australia.

Unique Tool, Rodeo, New Mexico, U.S.A. replied to my enquiry: saying:-

"At this time we have no representation in Australia...."

AlohaChris
22nd November 2003, 03:54 AM
Hello all,
I use The carbide tools described in the link below for all my rough cutting. I turn mainly pens and christmas ornaments and have done some bowls. I have found I can turn about 100 pens without sharpening the carbide tip. These are available on ebay for the same price as the link below. Just thought I'de provide another supply.

Chris
:cool:

Mik
16th January 2004, 01:23 PM
Hi all,

Robert Sorby make a range of higher performance turning tools called the Gold Collection. They have a Titanium Nitride coating which has been used for many years on drill and router bits too. The coating is applied to their HSS and significantly extends the life of the tool and time between sharpenings. On regular woods tests show these tools last three times longer than standard HSS. On hardwoods which dull edges quicker the Gold tools outlasted the others by five times.

Another advantage is the HSS is not altered, just coated, so the toughness is still there (i.e. no brittleness probs).

Sharpening is done as usual, with no loss of performance.

If you want to read more take a look at http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/ You can also see the tools with prices at our web site www.mik.com.au

Regards from all at Mik International (the Oz distributor for Robert Sorby)

river rat
16th January 2004, 08:44 PM
reuelt,
I have numerous turning tools from home made out of old files to hamlet 2060. I agree that that carbide or tunstan tip tools would be a worth a look, a whole tool would be brittle and very costly. I ask a mate of who is metalurgist about asp metals which is what crown pro and hamlet 2060 tools are made of. He told that inorder to get some alloys to work the metal have to be powdered mixed then fused togeter under high pressure and heat this forms a very homagense alloy. If the alloy was formed the tradedishal way the differant metals would not combine. Before I bought the hamlet tools I emailed P&N, Sorby, Crown and Hamlet and ask about the rockwell hardness of the tools they sold. I seem to remeber that P&N and Sorby was 55 to 57, Crown pro was 59 to 60 Hamlet 2060 was 62 to 64. I really like the new Hamlet tools I got both the feel and the fact that they stay sharp longer. I also believe in buying the best tools that I can afford.

River Rat