Hamlet...V.. P and N Tools [Archive]

stevew

30th November 2007, 08:24 PM

Good Evening All.

How good is this???? .. My grown up kids are buying me what lathe tools I need as a Xmas present.
I currently struggle by with a very old set of Marrples.
The kids want to see me get set up with something of greater quality.
With Xmas around the corner the presents look like being GOOD.
If I am entering in to the top shelf tools,what should I need .
I know that I do not need a complete set,what will get me by at top shelf prices,
Has anyone got any suggestions as to what I would need,within reason??..
I am about to start on bowls, and platters as a different approach to what I have been doing lately.
Any hints or tips will be greatly appreciated as I dont want to see the kids buying some tools that I might not use.Is Hamlet the best ..or do I look at P and N .
All suggestions welcome.
Thank.
Stevew.

macca2

30th November 2007, 08:58 PM

I have some of both and I believe that P&N hold an edge longer than Hamlet. However both are very good.
As to what you buy there are better people than me on this BB to advise on a basic set of turning tools.

Macca

Harry72

30th November 2007, 08:58 PM

P&N get good remarks, Woodcut are very good as well.

There's few people who say the Hamlets are overpriced?

killerbeast

30th November 2007, 09:14 PM

im no expert, but i have been reading a lot about the types. and i might be buying something like this next time they get good reviews several places.
http://www.thompsonlathetools.com/tooltype.asp?TYPE=BV

China

30th November 2007, 09:45 PM

P&N, Woodturning tools are fine as good as most of the overpriced overseas stuff that you pay 50% for the name, I have been using them for years, for business as well as home use I have two friends in Scotland who import them from Aus,

powderpost

30th November 2007, 10:23 PM

hughie

30th November 2007, 11:19 PM

I am getting a good run out of the Hamlet 2060 gouge I have. This is the top of the range. It seems to have the edge on P&N. :U

ss_11000

1st December 2007, 06:38 AM

i've got 2 p&n and one hamlet. i like my hamlet better:cool:

mick61

1st December 2007, 07:32 AM

G`day i have a couple of P&N Gouges and they are fine all my straight chisels Skew scrapers etc are Mcjing steel except for a record 1" Skew and a Richard Raffen Box scraper.Hacksaw blade for parting. The Mcjing steel seems to be pretty good steel. I like the P&Ns Beecause they are aus made ?and work fine.
Mick:D

Barry Hicks

1st December 2007, 08:34 AM

Get smart, tell the kids you have to have one of each brand so you can judge for yourself.

PS Try to look serious.

OGYT

1st December 2007, 01:09 PM

I have Crown, Pinnacle, Doug Thompson, gouges and skews, etc... I like the Thompson tools best because I don't have to sharpen nearly as much.
Hollowing tools, I have some Olands that I've made, and a Hughie MacKay. I like the Hughie MacKay best.
Nice thing your young-uns recognise talent, huh? :D Or are they just butterin' you up?

Mike Jefferys

1st December 2007, 06:36 PM

Of the major players who have a range of tools, I've mostly used Taylor, Sorby and P&N over about 25 years. All are good, IMHO, although my old father in law, who is, I trust propping up a bar in another universe, had a similar forgiving view about beers, "all are good but some are better than others".

What I can say is that P&N take longer than any of them to "break in". By this I mean getting the business end shaped and ready to go. This is, on the face of it, a good thing - the steel is damned hard. Furthermore my spies tell me that the Sheffield makes are going down hill a bit in quality to meet the East Asian onslaught. Are there still steel mills in Sheffield? Dunno, but I'm sure someone does. If not where are they sourcing their HSS?

Truth probably is that the Chinese can make stuff equal to the best in the world but we aren't prepared yet to pay top dollar for anything "Made in China" so the stuff out of there Made In China is questionable.

For a starter set which is really only 6 tools max I recommend P&N for Roughers, Skews, Bowl, Spindle/Detail gouges and standard scrapers and look to Sheffield if you want a diamond section parter or a 10mm thick scraper.

beejay1

1st December 2007, 06:50 PM

Thompson Tools :2tsup: are the best by far that Ive got.
They beat my Crown, Henry Taylor, and other brands that Ive got by a long way.
The edge holding and the quality of cut and finish they give is just amazing .
Ive now got several of them which were bought throughout this year and I enjoy using every one of them. Still only a newcomer to turning mind you.
Fantastic quality at very good prices.
Doug Thompson by the way is a genuine and very nice guy to deal with.
regards,
Beejay1

Mike Jefferys

1st December 2007, 07:06 PM

beejay1

1st December 2007, 08:16 PM

Does Beejay know whether there are still steel mills in Sheffield or thereabouts making HSS? I should disclose an interest I sell Stubai HSS Turning tools which are made in Austria from Udderhom and or Bohler HSS
Mike Jefferys www.thewoodworks.com.au (http://www.thewoodworks.com.au)

Hi Mike,
Yes there is still a very large Steel mill in Sheffied, I think its now part of a multi national org. I also beleive there are still some tool producers there as well as there seems to plenty of brands still claiming to use Sheffield Steel. Sheffield is not the steel centre it used to be however.
Maybe a 'Google' on Sheffield steel would yield more information for you Mike?
Regards,
beejay1

Evan Pavlidis

2nd December 2007, 04:14 AM

Gooday Steve,

I use Sorby, P & N, and Henry Taylor. They're all good tools and I prefer the P & N then Henry Taylor and last Sorby. P & N and HT I use on extremely hard timbers and the Sorbies I use on all others; they don't keep their edge as well; this is my own personal experience of course.
In the past I have spoken to several retailers about the Sorby quality and are surprised to hear that they don't keep a keen edge because they're considered by many as the best :no:
Whatever your children decide to buy for you, avoid the Sorby titanium coated tools; far too expensive and havn't noticed any real difference between them and the uncoated; man, do I regret ever buying them :doh: :doh: but you live and learn. I've used them for years now and they don't live up to expectation; I have several regular (uncoated) Sorbies which are OK but prefer either of the other 2 brands. Hope this helps.

P.S. Buy the unhandled tools; they're much cheaper and you turn the handles out of your favorite timbers as well as getting practice. For this purpose, the only handled tool I'd get is the roughing gouge for spindle turning the handles. It's very easy but you need it to be very sharp and take light cuts when shaping.

Regards, Evan

rsser

2nd December 2007, 08:47 AM

My Sorby stuff is a mixed bag. The tear drop scraper tip won't last through a job without touching it up, the spindle gouge is adequate while the parting tool and roughing gouge are good.

As Mike noted, the P&N gouges are not well finished; the flutes in particular often show obvious milling marks. Polishing the flute is one thing you pay for with Henry Taylor eg.

Std P&N gouge flutes are more U than V shaped and tend to clog but the upside is that the shaft is more rigid so you get less chatter plus you can roll them right over for hollowing.

dai sensei

2nd December 2007, 11:36 AM

My grown up kids are buying me what lathe tools I need as a Xmas present....

Do your kids know how much good quality lathe tools cost? Not sure what your kids do, but my three would have to chip in together just to get 1 :-:D

I have Hamlet chisels by the way and I think they are great.

Manuka Jock

2nd December 2007, 04:39 PM

Get smart, tell the kids you have to have one of each brand so you can judge for yourself.

PS Try to look serious.

And keep in mind that a Bowl Saver is a rather important basic tool too :D...

rsser

2nd December 2007, 05:11 PM

Nah, we're ripping the forests down as fast as 'Forestry Agreements' allow. Our version of slash and burn silviculture.

hughie

2nd December 2007, 07:09 PM

[ we're ripping the forests down as fast as 'Forestry Agreements' allow. Our version of slash and burn silviculture.
[/QUOTE]

Yep, a rose by any other name is still a rose..............

Alastair

3rd December 2007, 11:13 AM

G'day Steve,
My recommendation for spindle turning tools,
Primary tools
25mm roughing gouge
25mm skew chisel
12mm spindle gouge

Face plate work
12mm bowl gouge
25mm round nose scraper

These will get you started. Later on the following will be very helpful
12mm skew
10mm spindle gouge
6mm parting tool for sizing
a variety of scrapers for different bowl/box jobs.

Jim

I would agree with Jim , but would include a 3mm parting tool and 8mm parting/sizing in the primary list. I would also probably go for the next size up in bowl gouge, (since that was the way I did it, and it worked for me!)

Regarding make, I am a fan of P&N, and believe that their skews, roughing gouges, detail gouges and scrapers are as good as available. My only issue is a minor one. With the "black"steel finish, there is a tendency for them to stain your hands if working with tannin rich timbers like oak and willow, or turning green timber. You also have to be a bit careful in humid areas, as they will spout rust sooner than the flashy polished numbers. In general, neither has been enough of a problem that I would look at another brand for my next purchase.

Regarding the bowl gouge, Ern is also correct. The flute shape does not lend itself to the more advanced grinding styles. That said, it is still a good performer when ground straight across, at I have been using mine for some years. I have progressed to a ground back grind , and it can be done with care.

regards

Mike Jefferys

3rd December 2007, 12:23 PM

P&N do make gouges which they call Supa Gouges with a hemispherical flute profile. I have never had any success with this profile although to be honest have never tried the P&N ones. P&N do however make the correct catenarary or more V shaped flute for their bowl gouges which is a direct equivalent of the of the Sheffield makes which I recall being launched by Henry Taylor in the mid 80's as the "Super Flute". There is certainly a range of views about the grind profile and geometry but I think very wide acceptance that the V shaped flute is the essential for face work.

I agree with the rust issue but it's also true I think that the higher the carbon content the better the steel the more likliehood of rust. Just a moment ago rubbed some surface rust off some exquisitly hand made Japanese scissors which develop rust just by being out in the early Sydney indoor humidity. The steel is of the highest quality.

Alastair

3rd December 2007, 12:33 PM

P&N do make gouges which they call Supa Gouges with a hemispherical flute profile. I have never had any success with this profile although to be honest have never tried the P&N ones. P&N do however make the correct catenarary or more V shaped flute for their bowl gouges which is a direct equivalent of the of the Sheffield makes which I recall being launched by Henry Taylor in the mid 80's as the "Super Flute". There is certainly a range of views about the grind profile and geometry but I think very wide acceptance that the V shaped flute is the essential for face work.
.

I bought my gouge some 5 years ago. It is not the Supa gouge, but it definitely does not have the "supeflute" profile. It falls somewhere between that and the full "U" shape. Unless P&N have changed recently, this is still the problem profile I referred to. It is fine ground straight across, but if you grind back the wings a la Ellsworth, the "U" flute is inclined to cause the wings to become 'hooked', rather than straight or convex. It is possible to do it for mild grinds, (I have been doing it for years), but it takes a good jig, and constant vigilance while at the grinder.

regards

Groggy

29th February 2008, 09:20 PM

Lee Valley have a good description of the P&N profiles here (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&cat=1,330&p=49138), pics can be seen here (http://www.leevalley.com/shopping/AddViews.aspx?p=50319).

Mike Jefferys

29th February 2008, 10:21 PM

My hunch is that the profiles have varied a bit over time as well judging from some members posts.

Groggy

29th February 2008, 10:28 PM

Quite likely Mike. I am on an information hunt and happened to have the LV link and this thread open at the same time, so I just plonked the link here for anyone in the future who is trying to picture what everyone is on about.

Mike Jefferys

29th February 2008, 10:36 PM

I also have the profiles on my site www.thewoodworks.com.au
My contacts in the States tell me the importing of P&N has either faltered or stopped all together? Tha vagaries of exchange rates and the flood of East Asian sourced competition was blamed but this may be incorrect. In any case i don't think they ever offered the full range.

The first P&N tools I used in the early 80's had Pacific Maple handles which mercifully were soon replaced with spotted gum - a switch from a totally inappropriate handle wood to one of the world's best.

joe greiner

29th February 2008, 11:26 PM

My contacts in the States tell me the importing of P&N has either faltered or stopped all together?

Huh?
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Turning_Tools___Bowl_and_Spindle_Tools___P_N?Args=

Last I checked, Utah is still in the States.

Joe

rsser

1st March 2008, 09:08 AM

Thanks Groggy.

Gouge profiles look similar to what I have which are several years old now.

Check out the finish on the bowl gouge - ptui.

RETIRED

1st March 2008, 09:56 PM

I also have the profiles on my site www.thewoodworks.com.au (http://www.thewoodworks.com.au)
My contacts in the States tell me the importing of P&N has either faltered or stopped all together? Tha vagaries of exchange rates and the flood of East Asian sourced competition was blamed but this may be incorrect. In any case i don't think they ever offered the full range.

The first P&N tools I used in the early 80's had Pacific Maple handles which mercifully were soon replaced with spotted gum - a switch from a totally inappropriate handle wood to one of the world's best. All mine had Blackwood handles turned in Ballarat.