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weisyboy
16th February 2008, 09:17 PM
has anyone ever thaught about a swing saw style millusing a chainsaw instead of a stationary engine and saw blade.

i will do up a bit of a sketch tonight and see what i come up with.:2tsup:

BobL
16th February 2008, 11:47 PM
has anyone ever thaught about a swing saw style millusing a chainsaw instead of a stationary engine and saw blade.

i will do up a bit of a sketch tonight and see what i come up with.:2tsup:

If by that you mean a chain milling systen whereby a chainsaw can drive down a log in one orientation and then 90º to that orientation? then it's been thought of - check out Will Mallof's mills @ http://www.willmalloff.com/index.html This guy is a real CS milling guru.

Cheers

Sigidi
17th February 2008, 02:12 AM
Just on a swing blade mill - there is special safeguards built in so that when swinging the blade over one doesn't bottom out. My first thought when reading this thread was, swinging a chainsaw could be a bit hairy? I dunno...

Most chainsaws would leave a kerf of 10mm or so, is that right? Why not just use a blade, half the kerf, increase recovery, decrease cutting time, increase production decrease wear and tear, increase long term gain from equipment?

Yeah I know, I'm a sawblade addict when it comes to dimensioned timber

weisyboy
17th February 2008, 09:21 AM
that is the same ide but not realy what i was thinking.

Sigidi- my saw only cuts a 7mm kerf it is a matter of price what it costs to set up a swinging sawblade and motor combinationis quite expencive.

i am not quite sure what you mean but it bottoming out?

i know what i want it to look like in my head but imhavving trouble putting it on paper.

weisyboy
17th February 2008, 03:35 PM
sompthing like the bellow.

the saw attaches to the brcket in the center the same way as a handhaeld chainsaw mill. perhaps with 3 clamps instead of 2.

the center peice slides back and forthe along the rail either by hand or with the use of a winch.

the peices either end o the main rail slide back and forth to allow change the position of the cut.

the rail is connected to these peices via a rotating disk that can be locked at 0* and 90* to make the seperite cuts.

the whole frame is raised and lowerd on teh legs via a winch system.

Burnsy
17th February 2008, 04:50 PM
Carl, your idea looks pretty similar to the lonk Bob gave, just with a stand instead of using the log to mount the mill off - I like your design better as it allows for smaller timber to be milled. I think if you went to the trouble of making up this mill it would be best to have two saws and two mounting brackets in use. A saw with a short bar for the verticle cuts and one with a long bar for the horizontal slabs.
With two mounting brackets you could use some kind of quick release system to get it on and off the main rail without having to stuff around with the actual saw mounting when you want to change the depth of cut.

If you have power available you could even investigate using a large circular saw mounted on the rail for doing the verticle cuts when you only want to cut 60mm or so? Again using a the same quick release mechanism to get it on and off without having to undo bolts and the like.

weisyboy
17th February 2008, 05:01 PM
yes it is similar to the one in the link

with the one in the link you have to remove the saw and remount it everytime you want to make a diferent cut (diferent angle). i was trying to make it as little work as possable with mine you simply pull the lever at the operators end and rotate the whole rail and make the next cut.

i was just briainstorming and would probably do a couple more sketches before i went and did anything.

i am thinking of making a small skale model and working out anny buggs. maby one to go with my little stihl 170 or the electric chainsaw. to try it out.

BobL
17th February 2008, 09:48 PM
. . .with mine you simply pull the lever at the operators end and rotate the whole rail and make the next cut.

This sounds easy when you say it but in practice its not that easy. Your idea of just rotating the rail with the chainsaw on it is not how circular swing mills work - On swing mills the blade effectively ends up rotating about its outer most cutting tip.

To do this with your set up you would need to change the height of the bar and the horizontal position of the saw. One then might as well reposition the whole saw like Will Mallof does with his rotational system on big logs..

Another limitation of a chainsaw is it cannot flush cut against a surface (like a cicular can) because CS's have mounting bar bolts etc. This means it is limited to cutting a full width slab and then cutting verticals with the tip.

I've been thinking like Burnsey about a small edge trimming saw on a simple rail might be the way to go.

Sigidi
17th February 2008, 10:00 PM
7mm kerf, what chain are you running? onthe slabber I'm running .404 so the kerf is around 10mm. If I could bring my kerf down to 7mm then I could cut a whole lot faster I reckon almost a 1/3 quicker for the same timber, width etc???

weisyboy
17th February 2008, 10:06 PM
This sounds easy when you say it but in practice its not that easy. Your idea of just rotating the rail with the chainsaw on it is not how circular swing mills work - On swing mills the blade effectively ends up rotating about its outer most cutting tip.

i am not trying to copy a swing saw, and i am only in the early stages of design. ant i will overcome a lot of these problems in future designs.



To do this with your set up you would need to change the height of the bar and the horizontal position of the saw. One then might as well reposition the whole saw like Will Mallof does with his rotational system on big logs..

i isnot that hard you simply rotate the center rail be relicing the locking pins and then lower the rails to the desired height using the winch.


Another limitation of a chainsaw is it cannot flush cut against a surface (like a cicular can) because CS's have mounting bar bolts etc.

dose the sircular saw not have bolts sticking threw by witch it is held on the shaft.


This means it is limited to cutting a full width slab and then cutting verticals with the tip.

what is stopping you from cutting partway threw the log from the side. you could cut say 10 slits 2" apart from above than rotate the saw and cut half into 10- 2" x 2" and the other half into 20- 2" x 1" boards




I've been thinking like Burnsey about a small edge trimming saw on a simple rail might be the way to go.



this is what im trying to gt away from having to buy extra things that arnt realy nessasarty. and avoiding extra mounting and asembaling.

if you are going to be playing around with logs you will need a chainsaw anyway so why not use it for the milling also.

but i guess others just have an extra few thousand dolars lying around that they need to get out of the road

weisyboy
17th February 2008, 10:07 PM
its just regular 3/8 chain i cut down into a skip pattern.

BobL
17th February 2008, 10:31 PM
i isnot that hard you simply rotate the center rail be relicing the locking pins and then lower the rails to the desired height using the winch.
OK - makes sense, but then as you say then it's not a swing mill. :D

dose the sircular saw not have bolts sticking threw by witch it is held on the shaft.
Nope - the circulars on swing saws can cut flush.

what is stopping you from cutting partway threw the log from the side. you could cut say 10 slits 2" apart from above than rotate the saw and cut half into 10- 2" x 2" and the other half into 20- 2" x 1" boards
No problem - that's more or less what Mallof's set up does. The only thing I'd think seriously about is cutting up anything less than about 4 x 2" using a CS - it just wastes too much wood.

this is what im trying to gt away from having to buy extra things that arnt realy nessasarty. and avoiding extra mounting and asembaling.
Sure - I understand - I think it's an good project to work on - I'm just giving my opinion and hopefully some of it helps?

if you are going to be playing around with logs you will need a chainsaw anyway so why not use it for the milling also.
That's what I reckon too!

but i guess others just have an extra few thousand dolars lying around that they need to get out of the road[/QUOTE]
Not me ;-)

Sorry if I sounded critical Weisy, I like it when people experiment so please don't let me put you off.

Good luck - I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Cheers

DJ’s Timber
17th February 2008, 10:35 PM
dose the sircular saw not have bolts sticking threw by witch it is held on the shaft.


Most swingsaws that I know of, have the bolts countersunk in to the blade, so the bottom face of the blade is completely flat which allows it to float right over the surface of the log.

journeyman Mick
17th February 2008, 10:43 PM
.....................dose the sircular saw not have bolts sticking threw by witch it is held on the shaft........................

Both the Lucas and Lewis saws have blades mounted onto a hub with countersunk fasteners,meaning one side of the blade is completely flush. I'm not sure of the arrangement on other brands of saw.

Mick

weisyboy
18th February 2008, 07:09 AM
ow thick are the blades to be able to have the bolts countersunk.

BobL- i am welcome people pointing out the flaws in the deighn how else am i going to improve it. im sure there are problems that i cant see tht others can.

DJ’s Timber
18th February 2008, 08:42 AM
I'll take some pictures tonight for you Carl, but to give you an idea the kerf is 5-6mm, I think from memory the body of the blade is 4mm thick, will measure it tonight. Only just got mine up and going again and the memory is a bit hazy on sizes.

Ianab
18th February 2008, 09:46 AM
My sawmill is another hybrid, chainsaw driving a circle blade. The sprocket has been replaced with a pulley which gears the saws 8,000 rpm down to something more sensible for a 21" circle blade.

The whole engine and blade assemble swivels 90deg to make the horizontal and vertical cuts. No gearbox needed with the chainsaw engine.

But there is no reason you couldn't just mount a chainsaw and bar on frame like that. By having a fairly short short bar there would be no need to support both ends of the bar.

The only problem I can see it making multiple horizontal cuts, on a big log. The saw will project below the level of the cut, unlike the swingblade design where nothing projects below the blade tips. That would limit you ability to cut big logs.

Cheers

Ian

BobL
18th February 2008, 10:26 AM
. . . The only problem I can see it making multiple horizontal cuts, on a big log. The saw will project below the level of the cut, unlike the swingblade design where nothing projects below the blade tips. That would limit you ability to cut big logs.


Yep - in general I agree. It could be done using a series of stepped cuts but the one thing you don't want to be changing all the time with a swing mill is the height of the cut. A major advantage of a swing is that you cut everything off the log at that one level - then drop the height with the cranks to the next level and you are good to cut everything at that dropped level. If you had to continually lift, lift, lift, DROP, lift, lift lift - that would just drive me barmy !

I think Weisey's idea is to cut a slab and then lift the rig and turn and point the bar nose down to cut the verticals. However, for say a 36" bar cutting say a 30" wide x 2" thick slab the rig is going to have to be lifted 36" above the slab and will end up cutting the 2" verticals with just the tip of the saw. This leaves far too much chain exposed during cutting for my liking. I think a better approach would be to leave the slabbing saw at the same height and have a second smaller barred saw (eg 12 or 14" blade) running a low profile chain to cut the verticals.

Cheers

weisyboy
18th February 2008, 01:40 PM
I think Weisey's idea is to cut a slab and then lift the rig and turn and point the bar nose down to cut the verticals. However, for say a 36" bar cutting say a 30" wide x 2" thick slab the rig is going to have to be lifted 36" above the slab and will end up cutting the 2" verticals with just the tip of the saw. This leaves far too much chain exposed during cutting for my liking. I think a better approach would be to leave the slabbing saw at the same height and have a second smaller barred saw (eg 12 or 14" blade) running a low profile chain to cut the verticals.

Cheers

pretty mutch.

i would cut the verticals first then make the horasontal cut to relise the timber.

why not have a 20" bar and cut half the log from each way?

this would give you a 40" width of cut and not have a rediculous lenght bar when doing the verticals.

DJ’s Timber
18th February 2008, 02:09 PM
Pictures as promised, blade is 3.25mm thick,546mm dia with the teeth 5.5mm

weisyboy
18th February 2008, 02:15 PM
thanks for that i am trying to find one of those to buy actualy. a mate has one but never had a realy good look at it.

if it cuts a kerf of 5.5mm then im not losing mutch more with me chainsaw about 2mm wider kerf.

echnidna
18th February 2008, 02:17 PM
you might get some ideas here (http://www.willmalloff.com/page2.html)

The circular blade has a wide kerf but it cuts a LOT faster than a chainsaw

DJ’s Timber
18th February 2008, 02:21 PM
You're right, your not losing much kerf with your chainsaw, where the swingsaw is in front with a circular Tungsten Tipped blade is that you can keep sawing all day whereas with a chainsaw you have to keep sharpening it

BobL
18th February 2008, 02:51 PM
Pictures as promised, blade is 3.25mm thick,546mm dia with the teeth 5.5mm

Nice clear pics DJ!

Sigidi
18th February 2008, 05:02 PM
Lucas blades have a 5.5mm kerf or maybe 5mm? but th eblade itself is at least 3mm thick so the countersunk bolts fit in snug and flush

weisyboy
18th February 2008, 06:21 PM
with a circular Tungsten Tipped blade is that you can keep sawing all day whereas with a chainsaw you have to keep sharpening it

yes
i relaise this but it dosenot take long to sharpen a 20" bar.


The circular blade has a wide kerf but it cuts a LOT faster than a chainsaw

yes

a circular saw blade will cut a lot faster than a chainsaw but sa i have said befor it is not a matter of speed it is a matter of price and simplicity.

i am in the process of desighing the "swing bar mill MK II"

weisyboy
18th February 2008, 08:49 PM
here is the initial drawing of the new feame desighn i was trying to stay away from using 2 side rails to allow easy log loading but it seams the bet way to make it and still have easy acces to the log wile milling and not have to step over the center rail.:2tsup:

i am trying out diferent mounting brackets that would fit on the center cross carage .on paper to see what would wrk best.

weisyboy
19th February 2008, 11:50 PM
here is the carige for a 18" bar.

it would run along the center rails and be locked in position for each cut.

i have changed the desighn so when tilted it will be at the right height and you will simply need to slide the cradle sideways instead of having to lower the whole frame as before.

mk III now a work in progress.

please any improvements and sugestions would be mutch aprecited.

echnidna
20th February 2008, 08:53 AM
weisy have a look at the logosol timberjig (http://www.logosol.com/_sawmills/bigmillsystem/), you might pickup some ideas from it

BozInOz
27th February 2008, 10:25 PM
Here's the draft sketched version of the swing bar mill... looks fun.

BozInOz
27th February 2008, 11:11 PM
Here's the completed Google Sketch.

I like using google sketch - it doesn't allow any fudging.

Questions:
1. The width of the carriage frame is non specified. I made it to fit within the presumed 2m wide base.
2. How are you going to attach the rollers to the main rail and also carriage frame (E&D).
3. The distance between support beams across the carriage frame (C) is unspecified. You diagram is too small for the rollers to go between the lipped surface. I made it wider, you may have meant for the rollers to go on either side.
4. How long is the length adjustment (K&L)? Where are you going to drill?
5. The sketch is missing the adjustment handle. If you attach the handle to M or L then you'll need to have a calibrated angle gauge to take in to account it's translated position.

Overall sounds like a good project. Happy to sketch, but too much metal for me, I think I'll stick to my wood.

weisyboy
28th February 2008, 08:52 AM
gee that was quick.

the carige frame was meant to run either side of the carige rails.

looks good overall the can you email it to me as a sketchup file.

thanks a bunch

BozInOz
6th March 2008, 05:59 PM
Any updates on how it's going?

weisyboy
6th March 2008, 08:25 PM
haven gone any further yet.

i have decided to get some quotes on building it as aposed to bulding it myself.

do we think it is dooable.

weisyboy
13th March 2008, 08:57 PM
someone contacted me via pm offreing to build some of the more complicated parts but i cant for the life of me remember who it was.

all i remember is that they lived need capalaba (i think).

someone please help.

graham355
13th March 2008, 09:15 PM
me :)

weisyboy
13th March 2008, 09:32 PM
thanks pm sent.