Wooden boat festival

[Tor]

Well, I've only had an interest in boats for a few months (after I learned you can build them yourself) and I'm building a canoe to get the hang of a few things before I build bigger.

So I see a boat festival advertised and thinks to myself I'll pop along and see what's what, maybe pick up a bargain or two.

Lets say I was a little disappointed, I expected a exhibitor or two, well actually I got 4 so that doubled my expectation (there is a smidgen of sarcasm there) a Marine shop, a wood finish material, a diesel engine supplier and a boat building "demonstration". No swap meet, no big stalls, not many bargains.

My question: Is this it? It was obviously a good day for the participants (those who brought some beautiful boats for us to gawk at) but is that it for us landlubbers? With this sort of event and the odd language you sailing types use it's no wonder it appears to be an exclusive activity.

OK I feel better now, I'll go and glue my canoe.

by the way it was the Geelong Wooden Boat festival.

Tor

[bitingmidge]

I'm in the mood for a little mischief so will ask a question or two:

If you'd seen a sign for a quilt festival, would you have expected a bargain? Would you have expected a myriad of trade displays, or would you have expected predominantly quilts on display?

What about a hot rod or vintage car rally? Same thing?

Now if you'd been to a car show, would you have expected people to refer to things by their correct names? Camshaft? Carburettor? Muffler? Or would you expect them to use descriptive terms so newcomers can understand what's happening? "The spinny thing that fits in the engine and works the up and down bits" probably doesn't describe a camshaft correctly does it?

So you saw what's what, had the opportunity of inspecting some craft first hand, and probably asking questions of their owners. What more do you want?

I am often bemused by the expectation that vendors at "shows" should offer bargains too. They pay to be there, they pay to set up, they pay their staff overtime often, and all for the expectation that they'll sell stuff at below cost. I know they use these events to generate good will and marketing, but the reality is that the bargain shoppers turn up, bleed them dry of any information they can give for free, then go off and find a cheaper shop in the yellow pages. Just how are they supposed to stay in business? Is there any wonder only four mugs turned up!

So once again.

What were you expecting, and why?

Cheers,

P
:p

[b.o.a.t.]

I suspect Tor was expecting something along the lines of a trade show such as the Caravan & Camping or the Enormous-Plastic-Boats-&-Hideously-Expensive-Exotic-Bits shows at the Exhibition Centre or wherever. Hundreds of dealers competing to part punters from their money.

A craftsmanship, DIY, history & technology appreciation show, such as wooden boat festivals tend to be, is a whole 'nuther .... lilfestyle. More like a country crafts market except that not much is for sale.

Have to say, based on the last 2 Goolwa shows, that they are best attended, participated & appreciated in the company of like-minded & close friends. Very easy to be on the outer if you are not already an insider, or comfortable breaking into strangers' conversations.

So I have some sympathy for Tor's disappointment.

cheers
AJ

[Buzza]

I love the Goolwa Wooden Boat Festival, and I am planning on going next year. Wooden boats are old worldy things for the main part, and at Goolwa, you can see all types of wooden boats, some for sale, and some on trailers with owners just waiting to discuss the building or restration work they have done. I can remember an old fella plaiting old ships lines into door mats. This may sound odd, but such crafts can come in handy when biulding a boat I guess. I have memories of a longer than usual Canadian Canoe there once, made from polished timber and powered by a steam engine. :cool:

[Daddles]

by the way it was the Geelong Wooden Boat festival.

Tor

Nuff said. As usual, us South Australians do it far better than you Victorians :D and no, you can't steal our Goolwa Wooden Boat Festival though we'd appreciate it if the Queenslanders (hi Midge) would let some water down the Murray instead of turning it into profits for a few rich companies :wink:

I've been to a couple of 'events' where there wasn't much happening on the land but having been to a few Goolwa festivals now, I'm not too upset. Apart from the lunacy of the Quack Flats events, there's only sooo much staring at trade stalls you can put up with. The real interest in these events are the boats, be they moored or out trying to sink.

Richard

[Theodor]

They had the Classic and Wooden Boat Festival up here in Sydney (or 'down here' for the Qlders) last weekend and I can certainly understand what Tor is saying. I am also only dabbling in the basics at the moment, so I was expecting to see more smaller dingies and canoes (like what I am interested in). However, I also suspected they'd have a range of boats there. So when I didn't see many dingies compared to the number of yachts on display, I figured that most people are more interested in the sailing side rather than construction side of things.

There were a number of great boats there - I'm proud that our 'national' maritime museum is collecting some fine examples of Aussie boats. I haven't paid much attention to larger wooden boat yacht types to that was an eye-opener. Only later did I realise they have one of Ben Lexcon's earlier designs in the museum - wish I'd looked more closely at it.

There was really a limited number of stalls dedicated to boat building/exchanging gear/etc. I was happy to see what Denman Marines (in Tassie) were doing. Seeing their 10' huon pine clinker boat (currently on the front of the current Ametuer Boatbuilder mag) was a treat. I had a good chat with them and their boats - nice to see an Iain Oughtred design - their Caledonian Yawl is finished just fine, I hate how tassies all get that nice huon pine :~, and I wish the yawl was just a bit shorter! I also had a good chat with most other folks displaying smaller boats, but I discovered most were just sailors rather than builders.

So my expectations were changed a little bit after the experience, but it didn't stop me from enjoying the day. I must have taken hundreds of photos - mostly close-ups of how people had finished and constructed stuff rather than what the boats looked like sitting in the water. That's more where I'm at. :) Boating is very diverse - you have to have diverse expectations too I suspect.

[bitingmidge]

So when I didn't see many dingies compared to the number of yachts on display, I figured that most people are more interested in the sailing side rather than construction side of things.

I think it's more that people get all interested while they are building, but once they have their pride and joy, they are off using it.

I'd be interested to hear from you guys in a year or two as to whether you take your own craft to gatherings like this? I know that Daddles does, and I do, but we are serial offenders with as yet undiagnosed severe mental impairment.

Taking two of my boats to Goolwa last year cost something like ten times their construction cost. :oo: The percentage of owners who "support the industry" by participating in shows and rallies is infinitesmally small.

Don't take it out on the exhibitors, they are there at their own cost for your pleasure, if you want improvement, participate! You don't need a boat to volunteer to help on the gate or whatever.

Cheers,

P
:cool::cool::cool:

[Tor]

Well that gives me something to go at.

Not sure that car enthusiast have festivals (they tend to be a little more down to earth) they tends to have shows and generally this does have a side show of swap meets but then cars have several moving parts that can be exchanged.

Now lets examine a small but I feel important point raised by Mr Midge the movey up and down bits that turn the thingy around (not your example but mine illustrates my point slightly better), pistons I think they are called, the ones in the engine cylinders are called pistons, the ones in the brake cylinder is called a piston, the ones in the brake calipers are called pistons and the ones in the shockers yes pistons and when you buy them you buy pistons.

So why the hell does a rope change depending on where it's used just because of what it does, it's a rope from the rope maker that's what it's called. The rope for the big white flappy thing, rope for the small white flappy thing, the rope for the coloured big flappy thing that makes us go dead fast and the rope for the really heavy thing that stops us from going anywhere.

Another thing, the closest I got to any of the decent boats was 2-300 meters as they sailed past, so much for raping them of information and they'd have taken ages to dock in the breeze - why couldn't they organise some wind?

I have helped organise a few quilt shows too :B and they do have exhibitors who sell little packs to make quilts or other needle pully outy bits.

So I want boat builders building boats, I want marinas with bits for sale, I want craft that I can dream to build, I want plan sellers with real examples of achievable builds, I want to be grabbed by the b*77s with enthusiasm so I can build one of these Godforsaken craft and join the fun that was happening on the water.

That's all,

Tor

:q

[Daddles]

Like I said mate, STOP GOING TO THINGS ORGANISED BY VICTORIANS :cool:

Richard

[TK1]

Tor,

It would be worth you trying to get to the next Hobart Wooden Boat Festival.

http://www.australianwoodenboatfestival.com.au/

Only held every two years, so the next one is in February 2009. Go via Goolwa if you can too!

Sounds like this would be a closer match to your wishes...they have a fair amount of onshore stuff, including trade stands and exhibits, plus there's boats on display on land as well as in the water.

As Midge pointed out, it's a fair cost for the vendors to get to these shows. I know a few exhibitors at the Woodworking & Timber Shows, and (a) some have given up going as they're expected to pay a fortune to sell stuff below cost or (b) do go but it's a right pain. Consider too that boat shops are small - if you're away at the festival, the shop is probably closed. We don't have the population of interested consumers like the US or UK to make big swap meets, etc worthwhile for boaties. Damn :((

I live in Melbourne too, so can empathize...not much happening down here for us. But have a look at the Wooden Boat Association - www.woodenboat.org.au - as they have monthly meetings with people who actual build boats.

Just don't let any of this discourage you from building something!

Regards,
Darrn

[bitingmidge]

So why the hell does a rope change depending on where it's used just because of what it does, it's a rope from the rope maker that's what it's called. The rope for the big white flappy thing, rope for the small white flappy thing, the rope for the coloured big flappy thing that makes us go dead fast and the rope for the really heavy thing that stops us from going anywhere.
If you are at sea in all sorts of bother, it's a lot easier to say "let go of the jib sheet" than "rope for the small white flappy thing." It all makes sense when you're out there!


I have helped organise a few quilt shows too :B and they do have exhibitors who sell little packs to make quilts or other needle pully outy bits.

So I want boat builders building boats, I want marinas with bits for sale, I want craft that I can dream to build, I want plan sellers with real examples of achievable builds, Sounds like you want to move to America, where there's a population that can support it! The wooden boat market is so infinitesimally small in this country, that it just doesn't make it viable for anyone to do that.



I want to be grabbed by the b*77s with enthusiasm so I can build one of these Godforsaken craft and join the fun that was happening on the water.
Take up TK1's suggestion, and join the Wooden Boat Association, who knows you might end up helping to run one of these too! ;)

P

That's all,

Tor

:q[/QUOTE]

[Buzza]

"There is only one rope on a ship, and that is the rope on the ships bell, usually plaited with a Turk's Head knot. All the rest are lines". :rolleyes:

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

To weigh in on this one. If you want to get close to things that actually happen, get involved with your local Wooden Boat Association. It removes the economic imperative and just gets on with the stuff you are interested in.

If they don't run any events to your taste there is normally an option to run an event yourself under their umbrella and a few members will come along to give a critcal mass.

The main point is that the Wooden Boat Associations are not monolithic, there are all sorts of subgroups and subspecialties in every wooden boat association - if you natter to a few people you will start to feel how diverse the interest is.

In the end ... if you really have the hunger ... you will find a way of doing it. Most do do it in splendid isolation, but we do get together from time to time. I see a few of the people on this forum standing up in their own shoes at some sort of boaty location a couple of times a year.

Daddles is talking about a local get together over Easter (in Adelaide). Easy enough to get two or three people (or 10) together in the Vic metro area if that is what you want to do.

As easy as falling off a quarter sawn log.

As far as complaining about terminology. No choice - it is too late by about 600 years. The beaut thing about cars is that the technology is quite new - maybe a couple of hundred years if you go back to the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution. Also at a time where communication started to be easier and technological ideas travelled quickly internationally resulting in a sharing of the jargon as it was developed. Also the people who invented the first workable edition of something often got the naming rights for all the bits as well.

With one method of boatbuilding it is variously called - Clinker, lapstrake, clencher (and I think with a little bit of dilgence I can find another half dozen terms that mean the same thing.

The reason.

Purely Geographical - different names from different places. Often the English and the Ozites put down American spelling and word choice - cookie, color, labor etc without realising (realizing) that it is all English spelling from the region the Pilgrims came from.

Futtock

MIK

[Boatmik]

Well that gives me something to go at.

Good! Great comments too - not that I agree with them all, but you do draw (legitimate) blood with some of them.


So why the hell does a rope change depending on where it's used just because of what it does, it's a rope from the rope maker that's what it's called. The rope for the big white flappy thing, rope for the small white flappy thing, the rope for the coloured big flappy thing that makes us go dead fast and the rope for the really heavy thing that stops us from going anywhere.

The most useful rope names in a boat

Sheet - the rope that controls the power you get from the sail and stops if from flapping. Preceded by the name of the sail it is connected to.
Jibsheet, Mainsheet, Spinnaker sheet, Mizzen sheet.

Halyard - rope to haul the sail up the mast. From "Haul Yard". Most sails don't have "Yards" now but they used to be at the top of the sail. Also preceded by the name of the sail it is connected to
Jib Halyard, Mainsail Halyard, Spinnaker Halyard, Mizzen Halyard.

Then to tension a sail in a downward direction - downhaul
Preceded by the name of the sail - Jib downhaul, Main downhaul etc.

To tension a sail horizontally - outhaul
Preceded by the name ...

cf conrod, big end, small end, choke, flywheel - not a leg to stand on old bean!!!!

If you need more than this you have been corrupted by racing people and their desire to adjust every single item on the boat to micrometer tolerances.

(I can do my share of that as well - but for general consumption it is completely unnecessary - but the lessons that can be learned about setting up boats from the racing guys is REALLY useful)

Building boats is a whole other story - there are so many alternative terms that even us designers get confused. However the best do make sure that their plans are workable with real boats as an achievable outcome.


Another thing, the closest I got to any of the decent boats was 2-300 meters as they sailed past, so much for raping them of information and they'd have taken ages to dock in the breeze - why couldn't they organise some wind?

This is actually a really good point (apart from not knowing what a "good boat" is myself). You have something static on shore and something out on the water. If you can get the two to combine effectively then you have a MARVELLOUS festival that feels ALIVE. You see people setting up their boats then carrying them into the water or leaving their marina berths and then coming in after. This is the single most critical component of any festival - as it directly reflects the desire of the punters. They want to leave their shorebound existence and get out on the water. If they get to SEE that transition directly then they get to PUT THEMSELVES IN THE PICTURE - and they get to see that the people doing it are no different from themselves (or are sometimes just KIDS!!!).

That 2-300 metres is a psychological gulf that needs to be broken down.

Anyway - next year you can chase them in your canoe.


I have helped organise a few quilt shows too :B and they do have exhibitors who sell little packs to make quilts or other needle pully outy bits.

Hard to imagine what you could put in cellophane envelope that could be relevant to boats at a reasonable price.


So I want boat builders building boats

This one is a huge problem - people do love it - but they always want (fairly - I think) to ask questions - and then the boatbuilding stops.

Also there is nothing that is a bigger pain than taking a half built boat back to the workshop after - it is usually delicate and vulnerable to weather.

Point is ... when you sometimes see someone building a boat at a boatshow ... give them BIG RESPECT! Feel free to ask questions but follow their lead as to whether they are in a talkin' or a workin' mood.


, I want marinas with bits for sale, I want craft that I can dream to build, I want plan sellers with real examples of achievable builds

Another problem area. I am a reasonably successful designer in world terms (within the constraints of what I do) - but I am flat out organising for people who want to build boats to get and see one in their own country. Most builders just don't keep in contact. This is not a criticism - it is a simple fact. Then the ones that keep in contact are never in the right place for the bloke or blokette who wants to have a look at an example boat. Now to get them to a boatshow ...

This is one place where the net has a wonderful capacity to show procedures in a diary form. That way the info from the a guy in Central Europe becomes useful to everyone around the globe (how are you going Koala!).

This site here is the bees knees in terms of that sort of information. Lots of projects followed right through.

In fact you are thinking the wrong way with this question - EVERY BOAT YOU SAW AT THE GEELONG BOATSHOW WAS ACHIEVABLE - otherwise it wouldn't exist. Whether it was realistic depends on your prejudices and the quality of the plan.

To put it another way - it hasn't proved a hindrance to you finding a plan and starting a boat yourself.

If you want a quick run through on what makes sense you need to talk to people like Duckflat Wooden Boats - who are agents for almost every designer under the sun. They will also attempt to hook you up with a boat that is realistic from the point of view of your needs because they know the boats well and one plan sale is as good as another to them (they will try to steer you away from the cr*p ones).

Or you can PM me and I will point you in some right directions - I am happy to plug other designers providing their plans and boats are good - which is quite a long list - but shorter than the list of halfway plans and halfway boats (and half way prices).


, I want to be grabbed by the b*77s with enthusiasm so I can build one of these Godforsaken craft and join the fun that was happening on the water.

That's all,

Tor

I have been - that's why I am involved up to me nostrils boyo! And that also is the way forward for the "industry". In the end it doesn't matter what you build, providing it works for your needs - and a bit of a pleasant surprise in a boat that exceeds your expectations is good too.

If that happens - you will really get the bit in your teeth and be hauled along by your pink bits and maybe I stand a 3% chance of earning $60 from you at some point - maybe. Point is to grow the participation.

Which is kinda your point too I think.

Michael Storer

[Tor]

OK enough already :)

Thank you all you made me smile, one thing is for certain once you're bitten by the boats thing the passion that's built up appears to be very strong.

I guess my immediate problem is I have to learn 600 years of terminology in a bit less than that and I am trying to.The Mrs thinks my mastery of all these new terms are amusing and I've only been using ones for human powered boats....

Mik, thank you for your short terminology lesson and it's good to be able to have a robust discussion and come away smiling.

I won't mention this again and maybe in a few years I'll have bought or hopefully built (maybe a bit longer) something I can chase them which may be more successful at catching them than the canoe.

see ya around

Tor

[Theodor]

Again, I hear your problem Tor. The terminology being used on boats expands your vocabulary many times over and my brain hurts when that happens. I have found the glossary at the back of Oughtred's Clinker Plywood Boatbuilding Manual to be a pretty helpful reference. Also, by the end of a read of any boat plans, you usually pick up the meaning of terms - context is your friend!

With your grievances, I think Michael will now be motivated to add a glossary to his plans. (It required a 'couple of people', right Mik?)

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

A glossary - we did start doing one on the PDRacer website which was to be a general reference that anyone could look at.

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/Sites/PDRinfo/PDRhistory/dictionary.html

We know your problems and feel your pain!!!

But as a project it grew and grew until it became impossible - there was no chance of covering all the possibilities and it took so much writing to get it right and unambiguous. I would write, midge would read and send it back etc.

The question is - what is reasonable to have in a plan? I would love to have EVERYTHING but I am struggling to get things done now.

I think I have done a reasonable job of naming most parts as their making and fitting is described in the plan - so that leads people to understand the name of the part as they make it.

Also I try and state the cross section size of the piece the first time it is mentioned.

I have also tried to use terms consistently and not change them part way through - like it is easy to start calling a "sheer clamp" a "deck clamp". They are different in a traditionally built boat but in a glued one you use one piece of timber for both functions. It is very easy to make this type of mistake and I try very hard not to.

Sorry - but I don't know what to do apart from this.

I have though of diagrams - but do I show a part built boat at the stage they are looking at while building, or do I show a 3D picture of the boat as finished. I feel the second option would be MORE confusing (how does that end up there? Rather than just following the instructions and it ending up in the right place because I have worked it out properly for you). And the former means several drawings with names for each stage of the boat.

In the end people do have my email so if there is something ... they can ask.

Best wishes
Michael