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littlebuddha
19th April 2008, 11:46 PM
Hi i went to a show here in the UK yesterday and i decided to buy a Bedan after seeing Stu stuff it up on that utube vid and make it look like childs play:Uwell not going to make out that i though it was good and make him feel to good. But hey stu i got up early today and made a handle for it and im well pleased at how well it does work, was doing very well straight off but got a little to sure and thought i might have to go change my jeans after a bit of a catch, :Bbut then pickup again. Stu:2tsup:mate one convert to the Bedan...Lb

Oh got a new camera also so able to get back to taking my pics..
http://www.shapewood.co.uk

Zarguld
19th April 2008, 11:48 PM
looks good:2tsup:

Frank&Earnest
20th April 2008, 12:08 AM
Glad it worked for you lb, so far I have not been able to get much satisfaction out of it. The bevel in your photo does not look like 30 degrees to me, but I have been tricked before. Is it really ground at that angle?
BTW, nice handle.

littlebuddha
20th April 2008, 04:12 AM
:2tsup:Bit of tricked photography, like it and i did not even try:U. No just the way it is sitting it is angled tool steel then the grind. Just my bad photography. Keep having ago with it, you crack it its well worth it, i did find it very easy though, but its not always been so easy, thread chaseing gave me a good hiding before i got the hang of it. Some things click some take awhile...LB

OGYT
20th April 2008, 05:15 AM
LB, have you used it bevel up yet? I haven't had the guts to try it.

littlebuddha
20th April 2008, 06:21 AM
I used it bevel up when, or should i say just before i was going to change my jeans:o its fast and it did make your heart pump. It is a very fast tool and has a lot of uses, i also used it to hollow a box out today the inside of the box was 3" deep and 1 3/4" ID dia. I first drilled a 3/8 hole then used the Bedan, this was end grain and it was used on very dry hornbeam its very dence wood, it really shifted it, so for me the Bedan is going to be a very vers tool.
PLEASE GET USED TO THE BEDAN FIRST if you deside to use it on end grain just remember that it is a bit of a horror tool at first:Ubut does work a treat.
Best thing i can say is get yourself a good deep pair of wellies and a big bucket to empty into:D:). In the Bedan there was a big mess but not on the lathe:phave fun guys ..LB

Sorry about the quality of the pic, just done it in the livingroom with just the ceiling light but you can see that it has the angle..LB

hughie
20th April 2008, 08:53 AM
Hmm, after Stu's video I have moved it up the list. :2tsup:

artme
20th April 2008, 10:05 AM
don't know if I'm game enough yet!

Frank&Earnest
20th April 2008, 10:56 AM
Thanks LB, I obviously need more practice. :2tsup:

OGYT
20th April 2008, 12:36 PM
Thanks for the info, LB. After seeing the pic of yours, I think mine must be at about 45 degrees. Should I change it? Before I try it bevel up?
About all I've used mine for is making tenons. I haven't even tried to plane a curve with it - yet.

La truciolara
20th April 2008, 08:53 PM
The bedan is a really fantastic instrument if used correctly. It is a French technique used since the XVIII century, used with talent by the word wide known eccentric Master, Jean François Escoulen
http://www.escoulen.com/

littlebuddha
21st April 2008, 12:04 AM
Ashley Iles Bedan tool H46 3/8" ...9mm The grind angle should be 45% or less especially if the Bedan is going to be used to roll beads
The tool steel shape has a 30% angle to it
www.ashleyiles.co.uk (http://www.ashleyiles.co.uk)

If you can not get to grips with it all it is a great tool for a lot of jobs which ever way you use it, i am always in the mind that you use a tool in anyway you can, just have ago with it, this goes for any tool.
I have a roughing out gouge and i hardly use it, the main tool i use is a Crown deep flute spindle gouge this gets used to rough out and to shape, i am able to get more done a lot faster and it just feels right, do not make the mistake that if a tool has been made to do a certain job that you have to use it for that. (those new to turning).
Stu if you read this thread thanks for the film you done, you converted me to it and i have took to it like a duck to water and it will do a lot of work for me, so thanks for the inlightenment:2tsup: Oh ill send you the cleaning bill for my jeans, for that first catch:o:o:D...LB

Stu in Tokyo
21st April 2008, 04:18 PM
Hey LB, glad you stuck with it, it is a very "Catchy" tool, but once you get the hang of it, it is dead fast, and makes a smooth cut. It is also certainly not for everyone, it is the kind of tool you have to, HAVE practice all the time, kind of like TIG welding. Still, I enjoy the challenge, and I find it fun. You are on your own with the cleaning bills :D

BTW, sorry I was off line for so long, I've been in the hospital with a nasty leg infection, I'm out now (10 days in the hospital!) but I'm still off my feet for at least another week, no Dungeon time for me :((

I got mine from Robert Sorby, it is an actual >> "Escoulen Bedan" (http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Turning_Tools___Special_Purpose_Tools___Escoulen_Bedan_Tool___escoulen_bedan?Args=) <
Cheers!

littlebuddha
22nd April 2008, 05:26 AM
Hi Stu sorry to hear about the leg mate hope its not to painfull, and if you are anything like me you will be getting withdraw simptoms about now. My mate flew out to Tokyo friday i was going to go with him but had a problem with my mother so dropped out, could have come say hi, maybe next time when we come over for koi. Hope you get back to the dark place soon:oo::2tsup:..LB

Stu in Tokyo
22nd April 2008, 08:29 AM
The Leg is getting better all the time LB, thanks.

Next time you are in town, I'll give you the nickel tour of the Dungeon! :D

PS sorry to hijack your thread :-

rsser
22nd April 2008, 05:23 PM
You can easily make your own.

Get a bit of quarter or 3/8 square HSS, grind a bevel, relieve the sides a bit, arris the edges if you want to cut a bead, and your done.

Tho for end-grain hollowing of a straight side, 3/8 thick x 1 or 1.5" wide is the way to go. 3/8 square doesn't give you enough resistance to sliding sideways on the rest.

littlebuddha
22nd April 2008, 10:11 PM
Maybe its down to how you use a tool or maybe i got a magic one:roll: i have no problem with useing it as a scew cutting beads hollowing out or for roughing out rounding a small or large piece of stock, it slides along the rest with no problem, giving it a little wobble motion to quickly turn large stock down to a gentle smooth motion to clean up, if a tool is sharpe and you get on with it there is no resistance. And i think if you make the tool to 1 1/2" wide you defeat the nature of the tool. But thats my thoughts all to there own. LB

Frank&Earnest
22nd April 2008, 10:52 PM
At the end of the day, if the bevel is 30 degrees the only difference with a "square skew" ground at the same angle is that the blade of the skew is on the central axis of the tool and the blade of the bedan is not.

This changes the angle of incidence of the blade with the wood, that is more or less irrelevant because that changes also by lowering or raising the tool, and changes the amount of force applied to the wood, which is also controllable by the turner.

My bet would be that there is no theoretical difference between what can be achieved with a bedan or a "square skew" ground at the same angle, the difference is in the comfort and ease of use for the turner.

Short of exhaustive ergonomic research, there is no way of really telling for sure which is better in this respect.

Natural selection through time can be an indication, though. While the skew is now virtually always used with a slant blade, the bedan has remained the tool of choice with a square blade, which would indicate its superiority over the other in this configuration.

Stu in Tokyo
23rd April 2008, 12:16 AM
My take on this is like welding. With a MIG welder, I can teach just about anyone how to run a decent bead on flat steel in 30 minutes or so, but to teach someone how to TIG weld, well that is not an easy thing, in fact I can't do it anymore, it has been years since I ran any TIG machine.

The Bedan is a production turning tool, it is not a some time used tool, it is a tool that someone turning 300 banister spindles would use, with great efficiency, after a lot of practice.

Jean François Escoulen told us all that when he was a young man, and wanted to take on the job of a turner, in his father's shop, his dad handed him a Bedan, and a sample of a banister spindle, then told him to make a bunch of the same as the sample, I cannot remember the number, bit is was large, like several hundred. He said a few months later, after working at it full time, he got the job done.

If I may suggest that you watch the two videos I put up of Jean-Francois explaining the Bedan.............

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rsser
23rd April 2008, 08:55 AM
LB, I was only referring to efficiency in end-grain hollowing down a straight(ish) wall. With hardwoods I find the bedan or square scraper is more likely to be pushed away from the cut than a heavy std scraper, and I attribute this to the difference in friction on the rest between the two.

littlebuddha
23rd April 2008, 09:11 AM
Ern i understand what you say in the lsat comment and yes you are right, it does lend itself to push away although if you angle slightly down and agle the bedan then it will draw back to the line, its not a tool to take lightly though, so as they say don't try this at home:D Its a tool that i have grasped faster than any tool maybe im just getting a little better of late or i am just lucky but practic and perserve are the key words never say never so any one that has got it or thinking of one go get it and play practice it will come, i know guys that have given up with the skew as they moan that it digs in and is no good, ive always looked at things as i will do it and can do it, any way enough already time for me to get some sleep got to get some work done in the shop tommorow got a new idea. happy turning folks..LB

Stu the vids still look good mate

rsser
23rd April 2008, 09:29 AM
Sure, whatever works. People take to different tools; my son used to feel comfortable planing a cylinder with a square ended chisel square on. It was a peeling cut (and a rough finish) but the skew gave him the willies; his method gave me the willies.

So fetishes aside, the bedan appears to me to be a tool for heavy peeling cuts with the shaft (not the bevel) rubbing. For end-grain hollowing in small vessels it'd be just working as a scraper, no?

Stu in Tokyo
23rd April 2008, 11:15 AM
I'd not ever use my Bedan on endgrain, no way, I work hard at keeping that sucker shaving sharp. For me, there are a lot better tools to use for endgrain hollowing, like a bowl gouge or a scraper :2tsup:

Ern, you said the shaft rubs in the Bedan, not the bevel (using the Bedan in the "French" way, bevel up), you are correct, but the way that Jean-Francois explains it, in use with the bevel up, the "Bevel" stops being a "Bevel" and then the shaft, becomes the "Bevel"............. if you follow.... :D

In the second video, right around the 5:50 second mark, he shows this, he also shows how he pushes up first, tilts the tool, and rotates it to keep a corner cutting and and dives down to one side. He even says that the control is maintained because the bottom of the tool, the shaft, is rubbing on the wood, and thus becomes the tool's "Bevel".

When I get back on my feet, I'll take a video of the Bedan that Eli Avisera uses, it is almost as aggressive as the French Bedan, but a heck of a lot easier to control, I started with this, and then moved to the French Bedan.

Cheers!

Frank&Earnest
23rd April 2008, 11:43 AM
A- So fetishes aside, the bedan appears to me to be a tool for heavy peeling cuts with the shaft (not the bevel) rubbing. B- For end-grain hollowing in small vessels it'd be just working as a scraper, no?



C- With hardwoods I find the bedan or square scraper is more likely to be pushed away from the cut than a heavy std scraper, D- and I attribute this to the difference in friction on the rest between the two


Ern, IMHO the answer can be found in here with a bit of analysis, tell me if it makes sense.

Given A, B follows if the vertical face of the bedan and the scraper are at the same angle with the orizontal, eg let's assume they are both perfectly square. If this applies, then the other variables possibly causing the observed result C are:
- D-
- E- the thickness of the shaft
- F- the angle of the bevel, usually 30 for the bedan and 60 for the scraper
- G- the position of the tool relative to the spindle

The force that needs to be applied by the turner to overcome the resistance of the square shaft rubbing into the concave surface, which depends on E, F and G, is influenced by D.

My guess is that the added friction of a heavier and wider tool would be a rather small addition to the force provided by the turner's muscles.

rsser
23rd April 2008, 12:27 PM
Stu: exactly. So: the Bedan (in spindle mode) is cutting at the corner yes? And so the only diff btwn it and a skew is that rubbing the skew bevel requires you to lift the tail of the handle more whereas with the bedan, rubbing on the shaft, you can keep the tail lower, raise your rest, and more readily cut at or near 'noon' position on the spindle. (Added: and maybe given the angles you end up a bead cut with the tool at a more comfortable and easier to control position? Rather more centred.)

F&E: I've tried both methods with redgum and the like and my observations are empirical rather than theoretical. It made enough difference to justify the cost of a heavy wide scraper.

I should've said I'm sometimes hollowing down to 100mm at which depth keeping tool control is hard work whichever I'm using but certainly easier with the heavy wide one.

robutacion
3rd November 2008, 10:48 PM
You can easily make your own.

Get a bit of quarter or 3/8 square HSS, grind a bevel, relieve the sides a bit, arris the edges if you want to cut a bead, and your done.

Tho for end-grain hollowing of a straight side, 3/8 thick x 1 or 1.5" wide is the way to go. 3/8 square doesn't give you enough resistance to sliding sideways on the rest.

And I sure did...! rsser

Stu, I hope that you don't mind that I'm using this thread to add the making of my Bedan. Actually, the idea started when I saw this thread of yours and then other people talking about this tool.
I've waited for the opportunity to get my hands on some HSS bar, which I did a few weeks back at the Adelaide Wood-show. I firstly though in make a Ci1 type gouge out of it but then with Franks offer of a piece of 12 mm stainless bar, I decide that was time to make a Bedan, and my 12mm HSS bar was ideal for it.

Not much to it, simply making an handle, following the same design and construction of some recently made gouge handles, using also the rifle bedding compound to secure the tool to the timber handle. I've marked and cut the recommended 30 degrees angle for this tool, but it doesn't seem right, there is, it doesn't look to have enough angle. I re-read all the threads about this tool, and re-view several times the videos available on this tool, and every time I could swear that the angle is more than the 30 degrees. In reality, it looks more than 45 degrees bevel. Using/testing the tool, I can say that, if it had more angle it would be better. Ok, nothing stops me to cut it at whatever the angle I want, but that is not the point, is the 30 degrees indeed the correct angle for the bedan or not?:(
Does anyone has an original (factory) so that the angle can be verified properly and accurately. I believe, others like Frank, had some issues with this same subject but, I'm not sure if this (correct angle) has been verified or not. Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me, no way the bedans in the videos are so tight angle.:no::?

Have a look, and tell me what you're reckon...!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Frank&Earnest
4th November 2008, 06:54 PM
Good on you RBTCO, another convert!

Re the angle: yes I had doubts from the early photographs, but if you look at the last Utube clip (part 2) the view square on from the top clearly shows the length of the bisel. Also, if the angle were not that acute there is no way you could use it bisel up, it would just rub, like trying to use a scraper bisel up. When you finish making the square "gouge" (for me it is still a scraper :rolleyes:) with the square insert, you will find that it works like a very aggressive bedan bisel down, or in other words like a metalworking lathe cutting motion.

The tool in itself is not what matters, IMHO, it is the bisel up technique that is quite different from what we are used to. Still have not worked out what is the difference from using a square skew with the handle higher up, though. More fun with catches?:D

NeilS
4th November 2008, 07:12 PM
Hi Robutacion

That looks like 60deg to me...ie an included angle (http://www.mathopenref.com/angleincluded.html)of 60 degrees between the back face and the bevel. Perhaps a good angle for turning petrified wood, but, as you say George, it's a bit on the 'fat' side... even for our Australian hardwoods.

I'm no bedan buff, so can't suggested any bevel angles other than to say that I use my wide parting tool as a sort of mini bedan and the bevel angle on that is closer to 30 than 60deg.

Go with your instinct and grind it back a bit, perhaps in 5deg increments, and see how it feels at each interval.

Neil

Frank&Earnest
4th November 2008, 09:10 PM
... I use my wide parting tool as a sort of mini bedan ...


.. with the handle held abot 90 degrees to the wood, isn't it? That is what I was alluding to ... Not much flexibility sideways if the vertical section is rather high, though?

robutacion
5th November 2008, 12:35 AM
Hi fellows,

I'm still not convinced about the angles/bevels thing for this tool, and I wanted to make sure I was giving this tool the recommended 30 degree angle so, I went to someone that had a metal drop saw with a special metal cutting disk. Not only it cuts straight without burning the metal, leaves no burr. There is no mistake about the setting of the drop saw at the mentioned angle either as the table base locks into position accurately at the marked angles, and I "triple checked".:D

I'm wondering if the "visual" difference in the bevels, is due to the width of the bar, shown on the videos, Jean used a 10mm, the pic shows a 6x12 & a 10x12mm and mine is 12x12mm:?.

I will give it another test as it is (30 degrees), and if still not satisfied, I will try to cut it down at 5 degrees intervals. From what I seen on my first test, I feel that it needs to be cut back 5 to 10 degrees, will see. In any case, with the drop-saw used, it takes a few seconds to cut whatever the angle I want, even getting it back to the original 30 degrees.

In any case, I think that is a handy tool to have, I didn't seem to have any problems with its use, and I will try to perfect my egg making with it, as I have a few hundred to do.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

NeilS
5th November 2008, 10:09 AM
.. with the handle held abot 90 degrees to the wood, isn't it? That is what I was alluding to ... Not much flexibility sideways if the vertical section is rather high, though?

Yes, Frank, far from ideal. Dropping the toolrest helps a bit, but the elbow can still end way up in the air where it is unsupported. If I did more spindle turning I would turn a wide parting tool into a proper bedan, but for the odd times I need something like that the parting tool gets me by.

Neil

Stu in Tokyo
21st November 2008, 10:45 PM
Sorry it took so long for me to put these up, but I finally remembered today to get these pics :-

89317
Here you go, it looks like 37 degrees

89318
This is what 45 degrees would look like.

I sure hope this helps out.

Cheers!

robutacion
22nd November 2008, 03:35 AM
Thanks Stu in Tokyo,

That is exactly what I needed, and proves my original comment that it needed a little more than the 30 degrees I got on it. The 7 extra degrees, makes sense and explain why on the pics then didn't look 30 degrees. Anyways, thanks for providing the evidence.

Cheers
RBTCO

Stu in Tokyo
22nd November 2008, 11:43 AM
No worries, sorry it took so bloody long, I kept forgetting to take the darn pics, I'd remember about 30 minutes AFTER I'd left the dungeon :doh:

Cheers!


Thanks Stu in Tokyo,

That is exactly what I needed, and proves my original comment that it needed a little more than the 30 degrees I got on it. The 7 extra degrees, makes sense and explain why on the pics then didn't look 30 degrees. Anyways, thanks for providing the evidence.

Cheers
RBTCO

NeilS
22nd November 2008, 11:48 AM
Thanks Stu.

OGYT
22nd November 2008, 12:33 PM
Bevel angles have always bumfoozled me. This is how what little mind I have, works: If I want a 30 degree bevel on a piece that is square (90 degrees), you have to cut off 60 defrees in order to be left with a 30 degree angle. So in my little mind, a 30 degree angle would be a sharper angle than say a 45 degree.
Am I screwed up here, or what?
Anyhow, that's how I ground the bevel on my bedan tip for my Oland tool.
What say ye?

NeilS
22nd November 2008, 12:43 PM
Al - I'm with you on the geometry calculation, but I'll have to leave comment on optimum angle to the experts.

Neil