Pine or not pine? That is the question

[Frank&Earnest]

Remember Robutacion and his love for conifers? :D Well, I paid him a visit last week, and found him to be a much nicer fellow than he makes himself look with his harsh writing. :wink: He is busy preparing stock for his venture into the turning blank sales and gave me some samples to convince me.

So, if a rose by any other name still smells sweet, does anything called pine turn well or badly?:D

The really funny one is the native (picture 1), Callitris glaucophylla, that goes with the name of White Cypress Pine, but obviously is not a cypress nor a pine.

The real pine is in picture 2, Radiata pine (Monterey pine). Not to everybody's liking, but still interesting colour and knot patterns.

Picture 3 is actually a real cypress, Cupressus macrocarpa (Monterey cypress).

Once you discount the obvious poor skills of the turner :-, you see that something good could come out of these plantation commoners. These might go in the bin, but I am going to persevere. :2tsup:

[funkychicken]

I reckon they're pretty good, no way I'd bin 'em

[Frank&Earnest]

Ahem... this is the other side of the vase. Ever tried to hollow down 125mm with a bowl gouge? :D The good news is that I have been very pleasantly surprised by the performance of the el cheapo gouge I bought on a fancy, much better than the very expensive ones I bought before. An in depth analysis (pun intended) :D of the different bevels is in order.

[coffenup]

Well Frank&Earnest I wish my turnings looked that good I would be happy. If you have some offcuts I am willing to help product testing for you.
Regards
Michael
also in adelaide
:U:U:U

[Frank&Earnest]

Hi Michael. I'm sure we will be able to get good prices for the locals. Rocking up with a trailer and doing a bit of arm twisting is a sure way to go.:wink:

[TTIT]

Far be it fro me to knock the wind out of your sails Frank but I reckon you're flying the wrong flag on No.1 :shrug: - The grain and colour are not like any callitris glaucophylla (http://web.aanet.net.au/ttit/treepages/whitecypress_main.htm) I've seen and the bark is definitely not White Cypress. Other than that picky little point:B, nice form and a good result :2tsup:

[artme]

I'm with TTIT !

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,
Hi F&E, thanks for your "in person" description.
Well, sometimes we get lucky, huh?
I'm quite pleased with the away some of the samples I offer you, have come-up.
I'm still working on getting some samples done for the forum, mainly from the recent old Golden Cypress, I cut. This is realy good stuff!
While I keep working on the timber samples and prices, I hope you have the time to produce a few more pieces from the Golden Cypress timber you have.
For those closer to me, some bulk sales are possible, at very reasonable prices, just send me a PM with an expression of interest, and I will organise time and day, for a visit. Just ask Frank, you will feel like "a little kid in a lolly store", hahahahahahha.
I will try to keep all prices reasonable and fair...!
First come, first served type thing!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[littlebuddha]

F&E that sounds rude, okay im in the mind that wood is wood, it gets more and more expensive to buy these days and the free wood is getting more rare. Exotic wood prices are complety daft. So any wood is good would, and as you have shown it can make some decent turnings, you can always add to them with pyro burning, dyes acrylic paints, PEWTER had to put that one in:D add other woods to the piece, pierce work it goes on and on, just spend a little time on the woods, sharp tools and your away. I take any wood these days and waste nothing. LB

[Frank&Earnest]

My apologies, this is another example of the confusing nature of the common names. I was told that it was White Pine, googled and found White Cypress Pine, widely cultivated, etc. I put 2 and 2 together and got 5. Incidentally, Robutacion tells me that sample 1 and sample 2 are the same tree, only different areas. Any suggestion to what that really is, is welcome.

I don't know what I said "that sounds rude", Littlebuddha, but if I did, I'm happy to apologise. Or are you saying that you do not want to be rude suggesting that any crap wood is good if it's free? I'm a bit confused.:-

[littlebuddha]

My apologies, this is another example of the confusing nature of the common names. I was told that it was White Pine, googled and found White Cypress Pine, widely cultivated, etc. I put 2 and 2 together and got 5. Incidentally, Robutacion tells me that sample 1 and sample 2 are the same tree, only different areas. Any suggestion to what that really is, is welcome.

I don't know what I said "that sounds rude", Littlebuddha, but if I did, I'm happy to apologise. Or are you saying that you do not want to be rude suggesting that any crap wood is good if it's free? I'm a bit confused.:-


What i wrote F&E not you, the shortening of your name.:;

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

Just a little information about the timber Frank&Earnest used on his pic 1 & 2. I have been using this wood for some time, I did actually provide lots of pics and info, on this wood some time last year, or was the year before???
It seems that is a lot of confusion about Pine species and sub-species, and just to prove my point, I'm providing some pictures from the pine plantation, from where the wood on pic 1 & 2 of F&E thread, has come from. Some of this timber particulars, were discussed by me on that "passed" thread, and I would not expect people to remember most of it so, I would ask for you (forum members) to name this pine species, as you know it. I will expect at least 5 to 6 different names given, and only one will be correct, hopefully...!
There is one aspect that I would like to remind everyone, timber species can look quite different, when something is missing, or a stage not executed on a proper plantation procedures. Unless, one is very familiar with all plantation processes of these species, it could be easily overlooked, therefore making species identification very difficult and confusing.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks RBTCO, that makes googling easier.
My bet now is on New Zealand White Pine (Dacrycarpus dacrydioides).

See if the description of the leaves and fruit matches:

"This giant of the forest is the tallest of New Zealand’s native trees. It likes swampy ground, but also grows well on drier sites, and grows as tall as 60metres but 25-40m is more typical. For such a huge tree, it has quite small leaves, just 4mm long. The small dark seeds have a fleshy red berry which tastes faintly sweet and is a neat way of adding colour to salads - if you can be bothered collecting enough.

The wood is pale, fine grained and straight, with little tendency to warp when machined."

If that's true, my other comments are also true: native (almost) and neither a pine nor a cypress. :)

[orraloon]

Wood is wood turn what you have got. It looks ok to me. Pity it cracked but good all the same. Good to see someone have a go with what is around at the time.
Regards
John

[robutacion]

Hi Everyone
I'm a bit disappointed that no one, apart from F&E have tried to name this common pine species based of the pics presented. I have also explained that this unusual plantation, makes identification quite confusing, not forgetting to must unbelievable colouration, grains and patterns, this type plantation can produce, I recognised that, and made the most of it so far!:wink:
How many Pine "burls" have you seen? I've got one out of there, 1 foot square approx. and I'm most confident that wasn't the only one!
So what you think it is?

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

These are just some examples of pieces made from this pine plantation, enjoy.

[lubbing5cherubs]

wow there is some nice shapes there. Nice effort
TOni

[Manuka Jock]

F&E & RBTCO ,
I agree with Toni , some nice turning there guys .

Excellent use of the branchings (? ) .... they really add to the figure of the wood . As do the style and shape of the pieces .
As for the wood used in both sets of pics , my guess is Monterey Pine ( Pinus Radiata / Contorta) .
And , judging by the gray coming thru , some of it may have stood dead , or lay for a while before being worked .
The gray adds to the pieces too. I turned a commemorative platter for my Dad , from a dead-fall pine on my brothers property , that has the same colouring .

One thing I do know is that the wood is not Kahikatea ( NZ White Pine - Dacrycarpus dacrydioides )
I have worked a reasonable amount of that , ( It was milled as building timber), and I have used re-cycled framing 4x2 for making food and baking utensils,
In the past Kahikatea was used for making butter boxes , pats etc. as well as other food treen. Due to the timber being odorless and non staining it was prized for the purpose .

As you can see by the photo , the wood is a definite yellow , with , sometimes , brown highlights.

[OGYT]

RBTCO, those are absolutely beautiful pieces. The wood is spectacular! Well done!

[TTIT]

Hi Everyone
I'm a bit disappointed that no one, apart from F&E have tried to name this common pine species based of the pics presented. ..............The pics are actually the problem - you need clear, close-ups of the foliage and seed pods for a good ID but unfortunately, all your pics are from a distance and only show the general shape of the tree. It's the breeding bits of tree species that set them apart from each other - so many can look identical from a distance. :shrug:

[Frank&Earnest]

The pics are actually the problem - you need clear, close-ups of the foliage and seed pods for a good ID but unfortunately, all your pics are from a distance and only show the general shape of the tree. It's the breeding bits of tree species that set them apart from each other - so many can look identical from a distance.

Yep, that's why I asked RBTCO to check whether the leaves and fruit matched the googled description. In the absence of that and with Jock's statement it seems fair to say that my second guess is also down the drain. :shrug: (must save this emoticon, it comes handy often :D)

RBTCO, why don't you put us out of our misery and ask your Council what the plantation trees actually are? They must know.

BTW, love 512 and 514 most.:2tsup:

[Manuka Jock]

If all the trees in that plantation are the same , then judging by the ones in the few closeups , they are Pinus Radiata ( same as the turned pieces ), that are way past being pruned .....

[artme]

Whatever the species is it certainly comes up well as turned articles.
They are all beautiful pieces Robutacion.:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:
I'm not banking on Monteray pine. Just doesn't have the right appearance.

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

Firstly, let me thank, to all that mention some appreciation for those last pics of mine. The shapes are a result of what the timber as guided me to. Not always happen, but with these pine cuts, I prefer to let the timber show me where to go, "sort of speak":D. Some times, the result is quite pleasant, other times is not, but quite often, I end-up with no timber left on the chuck/plate/other.:doh:

Secondly, I would like to apologise to F&E for not responding to his request, I just hadn't the chance to take some close-up pics from the pine plantation in discussion, nor I think your guess is right either, sorry. TTIT is also right, I need to get some close-ups.

I can see that Manuka Jock does know a bit about his pines also, I believe his right about not being the Kahikatea ( NZ White Pine - Dacrycarpus dacrydioides ). One thing you're right about it Manuka Jock, this plantation has never had a trimming in over 20 years. This is one of the points I made before on my thread, timber species recognition can be extremely difficult, when left grow wild like in this unfortunate case.

I do remember, a couple of years ago to have asked to the plantation owner, what exactly was he planted, and according to him, he planted "cypress pine". Yeah, sure, from the distance it seamed right, but when I went through it, I didn't think that was right, being confused myself due to the different shapes and general configuration of some particular trees, I just let it be.

This has been like a bad "stone in the shoe" since, as per according to everyone I spoke to, the locally known as Radiata Pine, are the large pine trees planted a long time ago, around Town (main streets/roads, etc.).
The only real picture I got at the moment, showing these trees, are on the background of pic (Golden Cypress 002).
Now, I am not going any further tonight with this issue, but I will guarantee further pics and the resolution of this puzzle.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[Manuka Jock]

Golden Cypress ? I use that name for indoor wood ware made from Monterey Cypress . Over here Macrocarpa is either a shelter belt tree, firewood , or maybe , an outdoor timber .
Call it Golden Cypress , which is what it is :D, and all that prejudice just disappears .

[robutacion]

Hi Folks,

I manage to take some close-ups and not so close-up pics today, and I will just simply add the pics on this thread and let everyone have a look and make their mind to what can be. I understand and accept that some don't see the point of all this, after all the "whatever" timber is, is turnable, and capable to produce beautiful pieces, nevertheless, some of us tent to get involved with correct timber identification,(what a job :?:no:) so that a correct name is given to the pieces produced. Again, this is not absolutely necessary to turn good stuff, but just an appropriate add-on for some:D.

PS: Manuka Jock, the Golden Cypress name on my pic, refers to the timbers species of the trunk and stump in focus in the image.

Case Number -1 (timber used from F&E on pic 1 & 2 and timber used on all my pieces pics from my previous thread. These photos were taken from the outside (edge) of the plantation, inside you already know how it looks like!).

[robutacion]

Now,now, you didn't thing that was all over, did you?
And what about the one the locals call the Old Radiata Pine, the one around town in abundance? no, is not the Stone Pine nor it produces any eatable nut! The ones on the background also on my pic of yesterday!

PS: I hope that this thread is not getting too many pics? someone tell me?

Case number 2 " the mongrel pine"

[Manuka Jock]

Lots and lots of photos of Pines .
Monterey Pines .
Bent , buckled ,twisted, contorted ones , called Pinus Contorta.
Tall , straight , branches radiating out ,called Pinus Radiata .
The same species of pine , Native to the Monterey Peninsula of California .
Selectively bred , generation after generation , to achieve the 'perfect timber plantation tree crop ' .

When I was a lad , starting out in the trade , we (NZ) grew them to millable size in 40 years , now 40 years later , we achieve the same size in 20 years .
Whether the quality of the timber is the same is debatable.

Personally , I reckon we planted the wrong tree.
We should have developed the Monterey Cypress .
Above ground it lasts a lifetime , untreated , unpainted , unoiled .
It just gracefully silvers with age.
No nasty toxic preservative treatment in our houses .

But no , the silly buggas picked the tree that is vulnerable to every wood eating bug around , so we gotta pump poison into the very fabric of our homes .
Ah well ....rant over :rolleyes:

Nice to see pics of some them that are not all regimental , pruned and thinned within an inch of their lives :D

[Frank&Earnest]

All what you said Jock about Monterey Cypress, plus it turns ok, as in my pic 3, and carves beautifully (will get there eventually!). I found it difficult to turn green though, RBTCO, to maximise the usefulness of your big logs IMHO it would be best to quarter saw them for carving and make 4" slabs for turning/carving when dry. The carving group is salivating on the piece I've shown them, I recon that dry and crack free you could get $50 -100 a slab/quarter, no sweat.

Pinus contorta (lodgepole pine) has nothing to do with Pinus radiata (Monterey pine) though, it is another species altogether.

[Manuka Jock]

Cheers for that F&E .
All these years , I and countless others have been under the impression that radiata was a tamed contorta .:rolleyes: Thats what the told us at Tech.
Lodgepole pines were in Cowboy movies :p.
And it seems that the other name for pinus radiata is insignis pine .

never too old to learn huh :D

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

Thanks F&E, I will keep that in mind, also thanks for the extra info.

Manuka Jock, I had also my introduction of certain tree plantations about 40 years ago in my country of birth, Portugal. As far as I can remember as a Young led (seven or so), I would be always walking around with 2 items in my pockets, one was the pocket knife the other was a piece of pine bark to which I would carve in all sorts of shapes, every time I would seat down. In those days, the most common and popular pine specie available was the Maritime Pine, the only species planted in the 15 century (1500), all along the coast line, for the easy timber boat production then in large scale, (according to the history books!). I was born in a little town near the coast line (12 km) where most of the work available was related to this timber specie, from trimming to resin extraction (specially) to milling of selected mature trees, specially selected for either furniture production or construction timbers. There is nothing compared with the smell coming out of the melting pine resin furnesses, even 10 miles away, imagine how it would smell in a town built around one of those. My first breath of air when I was born and for the next "nearly" 30 years, was basically it, pine resin vaporised, not that this is an excuse but, maybe explains why 50 years later, and on the other side of the would, I still react positively to the smell of fresh pine resin...:D

Anyway, not trying to give a history lesson, it will complement nicely what I said above on the Maritime Pine, with the following;
For hundreds of years after this timber species was introduced to the Portuguese cost line, these tree species were slowly introduced to country interior as far as 200 km in. Considering the narrowness of the country of only 393 km, (compared with Australia off-course:cool:) mountains terrain existent, soil conditions and hotter weather conditions experienced in summer months (June to September), those species started to change some of its original characteristics, such as the high (shorter) in exchange for a wider foliage (canopy) and low branches. The resin production capability was non existent, but the timber did had some extra qualities, which did appeal very well to the timber construction mills and producers, there is, reaching maturity at approx. 40 to 60 years, shorter in high and with a few extra knots, this timber was a lot more resilient to "timber eating bugs" and a lot more durable exposed to weather conditions, only by the fact that the resin was no longer extracted from these trees.
Well, to cut a long story short(er), in the early 70th's International timber companies have became established all around the country, mainly for the production of paper and wood-chips and in no time vast areas of virgin vegetation and native flora were replaced with Eucalyptus (fully matured for 1th cut at 18 years, and double the yield on the second cut, 8 years after that), and a new introduce pine species (which I can't remember the name) similar to the Cypress Pine (fully matured at 20 to 25 years of age). When these areas were exhausted, large other plantations were simply bulldozed off (such as Olive trees, Vineyards, Fruit tree farms, Cork trees, etc, etc,.) and replaced with these 2 other species. The money was looking good for those owning the land, but soon things started to go wrong when water springs disappear mainly due to the Eucalyptus, rain was no longer falling where was suppose to, extra dry conditions and certainly everything would burn in the summer months. While "most" of the original coastal pine plantations have survived to annual bush fires (mainly grass fires, well maintained forests and tree canopies too hight for most of the fires to reach), Portugal has since experienced some of the biggest forest fires ever reported in history, and while large areas of the new plantations are burn and re-planted, those old original Maritime trees and their successors are still the ones to keep the timber Industry for furniture and construction, going.
Moral of the story, "Don't be a F@&%# G#&@!Ar$&#@L&":o:doh::no:

On the other hand, I couldn't agree more, never too old to learn...!:D

The Maritime Pine Species; and a common "contorta:?", "crocked as buggery" coast line pine species:o.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[SAISAY]

Hi everyone,
I would be always walking around with 2 items in my pockets, one was the pocket knife the other was a piece of pine bark to which I would carve in all sorts of shapes, every time I would seat down.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO
Oh does that bring back memories as a child in Denmark.
No self respecting kid, boy or girl, would be seen dead without a knife, be it pocket knife or sheath knife. We brought them to school and played "Land".
Don't know whether you ever played that game here is OZ but kids would place themselves about 10 metres apart and scratch a circle in the dirt, stand in it and take turns to throw the knife forward so it was standing in the ground. If the knife fell over or you threw it so you couldn't reach it, you lost your turn. Without leaving the circle, one would grab the knife and scratch a semi-circle connecting to the one you were standing in, then move forward. The kid who got to the opponent's circle first was the winner. Never remember anyone using their knives for aggressions. Imagine anyone bringing knives to school today :oo:.
The hours I spent whittling with my Finnish sheath knife were counless :D.
Those were the days.
Wolffie

[robutacion]

Hi Wolffie,

As much as I can relate to what you said, I never played that game, nor I was aware of it. There are obviously some reasons why, firstly "you got a few bigger branches on your tree, bigger than mine" this is actually and honourable saying, which means, you are a little older than me:), secondly these type games were very particular and unique to a specific Country and its culture, thirdly I spent my childhood in Portugal, and in those days the most common game played by us kids was the "boat racing" using the little boats carved out of the pine bark. We would make little masts and sails and race them on anything containing water, could be a water puddle on the road, a little lake, creek, river, even at sea. Fourthly, I honestly doubt that any of these type games were ever part of the OZ childhood culture, for the reasons I mention above. I stand to be corrected to this, and I will apologise If I'm wrong.
On the other hand, I agree with the "living" simplicity of those times and those places (Countries), and the reality of our today very different life style. No, I wouldn't like to see knifes in our todays kids pockets but in reality aren't their todays toys (Ipodes & mobile phones), particularly the mobile phone, a lot more dangerous to them to what knifes were to us?:(

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[Manuka Jock]

When I was a wee lad the knife game was 'splits'. You and your opponent stood about 6 -10 feet apart , and using either a pocket or sheath knife , you threw the knife to one side and some inches out from your mates foot . The blade must strike into the earth. He then shuffles his foot over , until the side of it is touching the knife . He pulls it out , and throws to your side , either foot will do. Slowly , each player is doing the splits .By common custom , ridiculous throws multiple feet out were disallowed , and any who played them were disqualified.
When the game got to the point where both of you were stretched to splitting point , and only just managed to stay upright without placing a hand on the ground , the final player had the option ... of either one more throw ,of mere inches , that would split the opposition asunder , or you could show mercy , and throw between your mates feet , allowing dignified defeat.
And yep , we carried a knife just about everywhere , school included .
The habit must have sunk deep with me , I still wear a sgian dubh in my hose when kilted :D . A real one with razor sharp blade too , not the plastic tourist toys that are sported by some :p

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

Thanks Wolffie and Manuka jock, for sharing with all of us, the type games played when you were young lads. A very interesting and appropriate "extension" to the main issue of this thread and if anyone else would like to share their similar experiences, please feel free.
All for the sake of general knowledge and curiosity, I would like to share a little bit more of info in relation to some Pine tree species.
We have seen already some very twisted and strange looking, pine trees that didn't have much of an excuse to look like that, when in certain areas , pine trees had developed their shape and characteristics as a result of natural conditions. In this case, the strong wind conditions experience in most of the Portuguese coastal line, have "forced" these trees to become like rubber, bending over 90 degrees, twisting like a screw and still not breaking. Some of the trees in the following pics, have took between 150 to 170 years to reach this stage, I don't know about you but I reckon, these trees have been trough some hard times, huh?:-
PS: I'm not much of a timber sculptor, but by the way they stand, even I could do something interesting!:D

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Pinus Pinaster; also known as "Big serpents"/large snakes. (Don't worry about some of the legends in Portuguese)

[Frank&Earnest]

Back to what we actually have and know.
This bowl is another attempt with Cupressus macrocarpa.
3mm thick finished with Shellawax and it is translucent. If it were 2mm and oiled, it would probably be transparent!:D

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

Sorry Frank&Earnest, to allow myself go pass the frontiers and OZ borders, with examples that are just that, but not any bloody good to us, huh?:((

A very nice exemplification to what can be done with a piece of Golden Cypress (Cupressus macrocarpa) timber species. Where can I get some?:wink:

Who said that "size matters":D oops, please behave, peoples!:B
That's what I call, a small piece with lots of character, and those colours on pic 3 are just amazing. That indeed, gives me an idea...! what about use deep soaking "tint/dye" (various possible colours), to make them actually look like pic 3, without the light (lamp)?:;

I reckon, it can be done, and I think I know (remember) how to make than translucent, even at 3mm thick, natural colour or not. Let me test it/try, I will let you know.

I finished all the 463 donation bowls, (mission accomplished :2tsup:), so I will be soon, hopefully, be making lots of shavings (with the wood-lathe not the chainsaw,:no:) on that same timber and other recently hunted.:doh:

Time to make a "big" piece Frank:o

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[OGYT]

Speaking of Pine trees being pliable like rubber... When I was in North Carolina, a poor Army trooper with a wife and one son and no money. We lived in the piney woods of Southern Pines, NC. My friend and I would find a pine tree of about 10-12 inches diameter, climb to the top and start it swaying... we could get it swaying to the point that our weight would bring it to the ground, and we'd let go. Then we'd find us another tree right close and do it all again. Much fun, at no cost other than some sappy old clothes. After a couple of months, the same trees would be strong enough that we could ride 'em down again.

[robutacion]

Hi OGYT,

Lucky that they didn't spring back, and "catapult" you like a bird without wings :D.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO