R&D Question

[Arthur Dyason]

We are making a 50mm (2") bandsaw for use on our NEW monorail system.

Question for our R&D is how much cutting width is wanted by those who would use the bandsaw version of this mill.

Wheels are 630mm diameter so in theory we can have a cut width of 900mm to 1.2m.

Motivation will be 13hp, 18hp, 30hp and hydraulic power units.

We are developing this bandsaw mill for australian hardwoods but it should be good for any.

thanks

[echnidna]

How long is a piece of string?

[Arthur Dyason]

As long as you require if you cut it right.

I prefer the swing mill but there are times when I wished I had a bandsaw.

The monorail mill we have produced currently uses a 90degree swingmill or a chainsaw version for slabbing.

With the right sized bandsaw you have three different milling heads on ONE mill with a possible price of less than $12,000 for everything.

The 50mm band width is somewhat fixed but the overall cutting capacity is not hence the question on what is needed.

A piece of string that is too long is a pain and one which is too short cannot be used for the job needed!!!

[Calm]

How long is a piece of string?

Always approximately 1 inch shorter than required:D:D:D

[jmaxwell]

would you not make use of the 1200 mm if made 900 mm bet every second log would be 950 mm always the way and why is it limited to 50mm if this is increased the chainsaw power head would not be needed on your set up.

[Arthur Dyason]

would you not make use of the 1200 mm if made 900 mm bet every second log would be 950 mm always the way and why is it limited to 50mm if this is increased the chainsaw power head would not be needed on your set up.

As has been said you always need that extra inch so where do you stop?

I believe that the chainsaw head will always be needed for those who only want to spend $4000 for the mill and need a highly hand portable solution. Difference is you the owner use your own powerhead and therefore the cost and weight is reduced as most millers need a chainsaw anyway.

However, after using a chainsaw slabbing mill all day the reduction in noise and vibration would be wonderfull. An electric for home use would almost be silent.

We could always go to 1.5m but that would require additional power to drive the band.

The other question is then portability. The chainsaw powered mill is very lightweight and very hand portable at lessthan 100kg plus chainsaw.

The swinger is about 220kg and the bandsaw at 1.2m will be approx 250kg.

We plan to add another 100kg by upgrading the carry cradle to become a road legal trailer so the mill actually converts to a trailer taking about 10 minutes. This will allow the mill to be transported to the log with ease and be milling within 10 minutes. No room for timber on the trailer just your tools.

[weisyboy]

i have a few questions for you.



The other question is then portability. The chainsaw powered mill is very lightweight and very hand portable at lessthan 100kg plus chainsaw


how can a chainsaw milling frame weigh that mutch without the saw and still be called "Highly portable".



The swinger is about 220kg and the bandsaw at 1.2m will be approx 250kg.



how do you get this onto the milling frames with only one person. or to teh log for that matter.



We plan to add another 100kg by upgrading the carry cradle to become a road legal trailer so the mill actually converts to a trailer taking about 10 minutes. This will allow the mill to be transported to the log with ease and be milling within 10 minutes. No room for timber on the trailer just your tools.


this would limit the portability of the mill. it can then only be taken where you can drive with a trialer. in most cases i find myself milling up in the bush or in a bcak yard.


i would not buy a bandsaw mill with less cut than 1.2m but 1.5m would be more eceptable.

[Darkwood]

Excellent questions Carl - I would like to read some answers.

I must say I have trouble hiking around the scrub with my own "highly portable Ecosaw". I am still waiting to see how the trailer I bought goes, but in the meantime have recently found that a 1000lb rated mini crane mounted with steel reinforcement on the back of my 4wd does the job.

Darkwood

[Arthur Dyason]

The weight is lessthan 100kg depending on the configuration of the mill.

The lightest uses 1.2m endframes and a 3m rail and is about 55kg. The 1.5m and 6m rail is up around the 100kg.

Also depends on size of bar which we can include.

The chainsaw power head can be upgraded to a petrol driven unit with an allup weight of lessthan 120kg using a 13hp unit for the smaller config. For a dedicated slabber this is far less weight than the Peterson or Lucas slabbing mills, cheaper and when packed away is a lot more compact.

The trailer option is just that an option for those who dont have a utility vehicle but want the enjoyment of milling their own timber. The trailer option is a bolt-on and still allows you to transport the mill by any other means including by hand.

If you disassemble the endframes (about 30 minutes) two people can carry the entire mill. One each end of the single rail.

1.5m would be the upper limit. However we could offer 1m and 1.5m although the price difference would only be about $500 or so. The longer would be more inclind to wonder in the harder timber but is this that much of a problem?

I know there has been much discussion on the problem of bandsaws wander in hardwoods. Can be a big problem with boards but in reality how much of a problem is it if the bandsaw is just used for slabbing or the boards are to be dressed?

Carl, hope this helps

[BUNTA]

I use a Lucas as i mill trees that are up to 1800 wide so if you guys made a bandsaw mill that could handle australian hardwoods & maybe have tungsten teeth on the blade id be interested.
but 1500 wide would be more appealing & the more power the better.

would be interesting to see its cut speed as apposed to the chain on my lucas

[Arthur Dyason]

Bunta

Bands supplied will be either 5xsteel or 1 x Stellite tip for approx $300. We will be testing using the Stellite tip as it is a harder tip more suited for aussie hardwoods.

1.8m would be another milling head all together using a 100mm (4") blade and 900mm wheels. Far heavier and needing hydraulic power unit using 160hp diesel. Not realy what we are looking at and plenty of good manufacures out there already.

The bandsaw we are looking to develop will use our milling system so you can have the choice of circular or bandsaw on the same milling system. Or both!!!

[Sigidi]

Anyone who has a medium to large bandsaw in their shop knows how hard it is to set-up and cut consistently when you start taking it to it's cutting limits. 1-2mm over a slab is all I would accept in variation.

I just don't see how, when taking into consideration the fine tuning one performs in the shop with a bandsaw, then factor in the bandsaw never moves or vibrates down country/dirt roads and never has to be packed up and set-up each time it is used. Then start looking at how many bandsaw mills like the american ones (quite a lot in use) and all of them are very limited in width.

All of this into consideration, I feel one would need to re-invent the wheel to get a bandsaw slabber (1.5m capacity) with consistent, accurate, reproduceable results in a mobile scenario.

It sure would be nice as the recovery would be quite good when looking at losing 3in of mateiral over 7 slabs so if gaining a slab for every seven when compared to a chainsaw slabber that's about 15% better recovery.

But I'm just the quintesential doubting thomas, just about everything works on paper:(

[echnidna]

I had a small Portamill (20" from memory) and it was a major pita , after ripping about 4 slabs off a brown stringy the blade would lose edge and wander,

Bloke down this way in Cudgee (since deceased) used to make bs mills that would slab 5' or 6' redgum logs. See him demonstrating at the field days and he would always have wavy slabs.

None of the local spot millers down here use bandsaws, they all have swingsaws.

The only way you could make a reliable small bs mill is to build into the machine a band sharpeing & setting tool so you could sharpen bands on the machine. I posted a link to a bandsaw sharpener in these forums that would be perfect for the job. See here (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=57957&highlight=bandsaw+sharpener) their website was online last time I looked. You should be able to adapt a cordless angle grinder fitted with a fine grit wheel to do the job.

ps I tried stellite tipped blades etc, it was still a fool of a thing to use.

[Sigidi]

As an example:-

Other manufacturers who have been making bandmills for almost 80 years require a 49hp power head to drive a maximum 800mm cut and in excess of a massive 2.5Ton peice of equipment to hold everything together.

So what I'm wondering is how can a 13hp power head push a 900mm cut using something with less than 10% of the weight behind it and still expouse mobility, accuracy, production in comparison with the aformentioned example of technology currently available by a mufacturer with over three quaters of a century of experience???

still very much a doubting thomas....

[echnidna]

13hp will handle a 50mm blade comfortably.

[Arthur Dyason]

As an example:-

Other manufacturers who have been making bandmills for almost 80 years require a 49hp power head to drive a maximum 800mm cut and in excess of a massive 2.5Ton peice of equipment to hold everything together.

So what I'm wondering is how can a 13hp power head push a 900mm cut using something with less than 10% of the weight behind it and still expouse mobility, accuracy, production in comparison with the aformentioned example of technology currently available by a mufacturer with over three quaters of a century of experience???

still very much a doubting thomas....

Sigidi

one reason for the weight of other bs mills is the way the log needs to be loaded and dogged to the mill itself. This requires the mill to be built with heavier components. Our light weight mill only needs to hold the weight of the milling head and enough strength to keep the rail straight. A lot will also have the weight of a heavy engine to cope with as well. If you need the extra power no problem but we use hydraulic drive so the weight of the milling head is actually reduced.

You also need more power for speed of milling. Options will start with 13hp but 18 and 30hp will be available on the mill and upto 160hp available through hydraulics. I dont think any more than 18hp will be required for the 50mm blade though. We are not looking at commercial milling speed with this mill just portability and ease of use for those who could use a lightweight bandsaw.

Regardless of the mill going into production we are making a single prototype to test with 630mm x 50mm wheels and a 13hp petrol engine. The first will be an adjustable unit cutting 800, 1000 and 1200mm and we will give both bad and good results and invite anyone to come and verify these by using the bs themselves.

[Arthur Dyason]

Our Cast wheels have now arrived and we are happy to sell components to anyone wanting to build their own bandsaw.

Wheels are 630mm diameter, cast steel, 6 spoke, 45mm machined surface with a slight curve to the centre.

Taper lock centre with a 50mm shaft diameter. Wheels are fully balanced.

We can supply two wheels at $600 plus GST and freight for the pair. Bands can also be supplied to whatever length you need from $60 to $300 each depending on tips.

They take about 4 weeks from order to have cast and machined.

Shafts, mounts and pullies can also be supplied.

[salty72]

do you have any video / pictures of the mill ?? Do you have a web sight and a price list etc...

[bobsreturn2003]

i also have ripper b/saw mill ,and find its the best thing for cutting logs . get a fraction of the sawdust ,from slabber and swing blade units . but i cut only cabinet species . cheers bob

[Arthur Dyason]

do you have any video / pictures of the mill ?? Do you have a web sight and a price list etc...

no pics or video yet as we are still putting it all together but are happy to supply components to anyone who wishes to make thier own.

Ours will be a lightweight bs constructed from stainless steel where possible and compatible to our other mills.

components available at the moment are

630mm cast and machined wheels
mounting plates with bearings
drive and free running shafts
pullies
50mm bands
frame for 800mm x 275mm mouth
13hp petrol engines with clutch
band guides and adjustersguards are still being made but will be available soon. bands can be any length so if you want to make a wider mouth we can help with basic information on how too but im sure that if your into building for yourself you will already have learnt the knowledge.

The reason for the 50mm drive shafts is so the mill can handle large horsepower even though we are only using 13hp there is no reason why it cant handle a lot more which would be required for large mouth or higher production speeds.

Wheels and bearings are good for 1000rpm continuous. We will only be using speeds in the low hundreds.

website is www.ecosaw.com

[bobsreturn2003]

lets know whou have some pics and prices , cheers bob

[Arthur Dyason]

Further to the development.

As the Drive wheel is fixed and all other adjustments are made against this would simple shims or a fine thread be best???

Both have there plus and minum.

Even with the best thread and locking system can still work their way out of adjustment when any vibration occurs where as the shim is fixed in size.

The problem with shims is we need to supply a number of thickness and although fixed when applied take a lot longer to setup and would need adjustment with wear.

The non-drive wheel currently has four adjustments needed - wheel alighnment, tension, vertical and horizontal.

Shims make for a cheaper bandsaw, thread allows future computer control !!!

thanks

arthur

[echnidna]

I think thread is the go, it'd be painful out on the job if you needed more shims.

Therefore the manufacturer may be criticised for spoiling an otherwise good design

[bobsreturn2003]

i think threads . sometimes you need adjustments to machines that were never planed for . have put off a bandsaw mill at present as bought my old lucas saw back ,to do some urgent work ,on a few logs .lets know how your bandsaw goes . cheers bob

[Arthur Dyason]

thanks

thread is more acurate but needs to be kept an eye on both for the finished product and the safety. Its all down to what the customer will pay for.

I have been contemplating a torque guage as well for the band tension but there goes another $600. However it makes it easier for the operator to keep the band in the correct tension as you can see at a glance if there is an adjustment required. Would also offset the cost with band life but when your the customer who want to penny pinch now the cost is most important or we would all be buying the best possible not just what will do the job!!!

Of course we could just have the mill totally computer controlled and take that part away from the operator but who would pay another $30K for that when a good operator is one with the equipment???

[weisyboy]

there shouldnt be any trouble with a fine treaded bolt with a locking nut. if you are woried put one either side. shims would be a basturd.

as for the tention why not a setup like a fish skales with a large spring so when it tention lessens the gauge moves back. look at a pair of fish scales and youll understand what i mean. be a lot cheeper and is all thats needed.

[Arthur Dyason]

Carl

Fishscales now theres an idea.

Problem with a set sping is each type of band uses different types of steel and will require a different tension for optimum setting, hence the thought of using a guage.

We can then give you a tension setting for the band we supply. Initially this adjustment will be by screw but we may use a hydraulic ram as a spring as this would give an adjustable range of spring tensions.

thanks again for the feed back

arthur

[weisyboy]

as with fish scales you could have the tention weight marked on the gauge and it could be adjusted for diferent blades and timbers. the same unit could be used on the hydrolic ram version just replace the hand tentioner with a ram o winch and motor.:2tsup:

ps: i want 10%