Which Block Plane?

[outback]

I am looking for advice on the iminent purchase of a low angle block plane.
I have scoured ebay, 2nd hand dealers online etc for a earlier model Stanley #60 1/2 or better yet #65. ( there is a #65 now, but not adjustable mouth :( )
Whilst a new LN would be great, that expense can't be justified, (remember I take perfectly good pieces of timber, turn them into scrap wood and sawdust).

Should I hang in there for a Stanley #65 to come around?
Can anyone shed some light on the Veritas low angle? ($$$ worry)
Any other optiions?

Thanks in advance.

[Zed]

not so long ago my wife me bought a new stanley block from the markets for about $30. I've tuned it up (although probably not up to spec for some of the enthusiests here) and it works real well. if you you're only gunna do hobby work get it. possibly an new blade ?

[Driver]

Outback

I bought a Veritas Low Angle block plane about 10 months ago. I have not been at all disappointed. It's a very good plane. The blade takes and holds an edge; it cuts end grain very efficiently; it's heavy enough to feel solid in your hand. I was using it on the weekend, trimming jarrah drawer sides square on a shooting board. The plane was peeling off end grain shavings in one piece - very impressive! It's not a cheap buy - even with the current favourable exchange rate but I wouldn't begrudge the cost.

Col :)

[DarrylF]

I have a new Stanley low angle block plane with lateral adjust and adjustable mouth -
http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=PLANES&TYPE=PRODUCT&PARTNUMBER=12-960&SDesc=Bailey®+Low+Angle+Block+Plane

$118 at Bunnies I think. Works really well after a tune up. At least the new block planes don't have any plastic parts :)

[DarrylF]

Just saw several block planes listed on eBay -
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3274885880&category=4123

That one and 3 others linked at the bottom of the page.

[derekcohen]

What do you want to do with the block plane? Think about this for a moment.

Block planes certainly make nice small planes, easy to get into nooks and cranies, planing bevels. If this is what you want it for, the get the Stanley #9 1/2 on eBay. Just be sure to use it with the grain only because it will not perform very well in any other function. The #9 1/2 has a standard angle blade (set at 20* bevel up, so it is equivalent to a smoothing plane, like a #3 or #4 with a 45* blade angle).

Perhaps you want to cut end grain? Then get yourself a #60 1/2 or a #65 (preferably the adjustable mouth version). These planes have blades set at low angles (bedded at 12 1/2*), so they have a slicing action. An alternative, at a reasonable price (this is a very relative statement!), is the Lie Nielsen Low Angle Bronze block plane #102. It has a fixed mouth (but very tiny) and is an amazing plane for its small size.

Or perhaps you want the cut across the grain, such as trimming the faces of tenons? Then get a Stanley #140 or Lie Nielsen #140, which have a skewed blade and removable side to convert them into a shoulder plane.

I would avoid the Stanley #102, #110 and #220 - all of which are readiliy available on eBay - unless you just want a block plane for rough-and-ready work. The problem with these planes is the absence of an adjustable mouth, and the existence of a rather wide mouth instead. They will not do fine work, even with the sharpest blades.

Driver's choice, the Veritas, comes with a great reputation. This is one of the good new breed available today. The same cannot be said for new Stanleys and Records. They can be made to work, but require a great deal of effort. The older planes, pre-WW2, offer good value, particularly when you add an aftermarket blade from LN or Hock. If you are bidding on eBay, and the price is nearing that of a new LN or Veritas, drop out!! The problem with older planes is that they have perceived collector status. You need to know what to look for.

I hope this is some help.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[DPB]

At today's exchange rate, the Veritas ordered from Lee Valley in Canada costs $126.18 plus shipping.



1 Canadian Dollars = 0.9078 AUD, $139 Canadian Dollars = 126.18 AUD Indicative Rate as at: = 17-FEB-2004, NAB Exchange Calculator

The strengthening AUD is making purchases from Canada and the USA much more reasonable that this time a year ago.:)

[Rocker]

A major disadvantage of the Stanley block planes is that they are made of brittle cast iron. Dropping mine from my workbench onto a concrete floor caused the front adjustment knob to break away, rendering it useless. I know, I know; I should have been more careful; but mishaps happen. The Veritas block planes are made of ductile cast iron, which will not crack if dropped. The Veritas block plane also has a 1/8" thick A2 tool steel blade, which is far superior to the Stanley blade.

When I broke my Stanley block plane, I replaced it with a LN block plane, which I bought at the Brisbane show; it is a very nice tool, but it lacks straight sides and an adjustable mouth. At that time, I didn't realize that it was quite feasible to order tools direct from Lee Valley; otherwise I would have got the Veritas block plane instead.

Rocker

[outback]

Thanks for the replies to date.
In answer to Dereks question ( I was hoping to get a reply from the plane King). The reason fro a #65 or 60 1/2 is for end grain. The current project is a glory box for my daughter, I am using mitre joins on the corners, As careful as I I try to be, the mitres need a touch up here and there, hence my need for a low angle. So this co-incides with your reply.

I have read much of what you have posted on this BB in regard to planes and drooled at some of the photos of your addiction, er sorry collection.

I guess I am somewhat concerned that I may fall prey to a simmilar infliction. Up until a couple of weeks ago I hardly used a hand plane, then for simplicity I borrowed my fathers old Stanley No 3. It was Ok I guess, A bit of research on the web and a question or two here, and I now have a newly tuned tool which I lovew to use.

Also bit of satisfaction in the fact that I put in the hard yards myself, it took hours to get the sole lapped properly alone. But now I can see it is all worth the efforrt. For this reason I looked to ebay for an older Stanley, using the theory that I could get a good qualty tool at a realistic price.

out of curiosity I emailed Lee Valley and got a quote from them for the Veritas, $117.20 USD delivered (about $146.00 AUD)
Looking real tempting I gotta admit.

[outback]

Thanks Daryl,
I checked the link you submitted. The #9 1/2 has this as part of the description.


This has some minor pitting on the sole which could easily be lapped out if required. It doesn't affect performance in any way.

No photo of the sole worries me heaps.
The same seller also has a Sargent as well as a Millers Falls block planes, I have less than no idea of the quality of these or if they are in fact high or low angle planes.

As a passing note, I am trying to talk the minister for finances into allowing the funding of a new Veritas, her reply was we should go to Canada and pick it up in person to save the freight!
( me thinks she wants a holiday)

[derekcohen]

Outback wrote


guess I am somewhat concerned that I may fall prey to a simmilar infliction.

I'm afraid it is already too late for this. You have begun the slide down the slippery slope. And a 12-Step Programme is of little help. You'll do better by discussiong your fears and needs with your brethren and fellow addicts on this Forum.

Regarding Sargent and Millers Falls planes, they can be very good. But the standards werre set by Stanley (pre-WW2 standards, that is) and so I would aim for them first. There is a wonderful book available on handplanes , THe HandPlane Book by Hack. Well worth the outlay (about $60) and so interesting. Lots of useful tips as well as history and description and pictures ...

The #9 1/2 is not the right block plane for you.

Rocker is right to point out the difference between Ductile iron and cast iron. However, don't let this put you off the old Stanley planes. One of my favourites for end grain is a Stanley #65 "Knuckle Joint" (circa 1910). This has an adjustable mouth, is a low angle and uses a Hock 1/8" blade. It will cut thin shavings in Jarrah endgrain. It will work as well as a modern Lie Nielson, but cost me much less, and constantly provides the type of satisfaction that comes from using tools with history (which is something that is an important part of my woodworking).

On the other hand, if I were to choose just one block plane, and to buy it new, it would be the LN low angle adjustable mouth in bronze (equivalent to the #60 1/2). Second, at a lower cost level, would be the LN #102. I bought one of these about two or three years ago for around $200. Again a 1/8" thick blade, low angle, but fixed mouth. It will also slice shavings in end grain. Oh, I should also include the Veritas block plane here. It seems like it could be VERY good value for money. In fact, at the price it is a steal.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[outback]

Juat a final note to let you know of my progress. First let me ppoint out I do not have a plane problem, I can quit at any time I wish.

1. Just bought #18 off ebay, yeh yeh I know it ain't a low angle, but it does have an adjustable mouth and will be great for tidying up little bits and piesces.

2. Gonna keep an eye on ebay for a couple of weeks for a #65, whilst the AUD is going up the Veritas is getting cheaper, (my business is going downhill too,as I rely on exports). If nothing turns up I think I'll get the Veritas low angle through Lee VAlley.

3. This ends my plane collection

[outback]

Mind you the #4 is Ok but I really need something a bit bigger, don't whether I should go for a #5 or #6,

The #6 is probaly a bit big for what I need,just yet, so will leave it till later on.

But I don't have an addiction! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

[Rocker]

Outback,
It sounds as though you really need the Veritas 5 1/4W bench plane (US$189). I bought one a few months ago and I love it. I would like to have the Veritas block plane and the Veritas medium shoulder plane also, but then, like you, I don't have a plane addiction.

Rocker

[outback]

Just checked out the Veritas 5-1/4W, sounds great.

Silly questiuon time.
Is there design with the frog extending all the way to the sole, the same as the bedrock planes made by Stanley? Or have I just shown my complete ignorance of plane?

[Rocker]

Outback,

As I understand it, the frog in the Stanley bedrock planes did not go through the sole, as it does in Veritas bench planes. Derek may correct me here, but I believe the term bedrock was used to highlight the feature that the machining of the plane body and the frog was more accurate in Bedrock planes, thus supposedly reducing chatter. Here is a picture of a Stanley bedrock plane, which shows that the frog is similar to that in ordinary Stanley planes.

http://www.patented-antiques.com/images/WEB%20Sale%20Catagories/WEB%20Tools/Tools%201st%20Page/Tools%201st%20Page%20Written/t-planes/keenkut/k4box6.jpg

As far as I know, the frog design in Veritas bench planes is unique to that brand.

Rocker

[derekcohen]

The Stanley Bedrock planes are considered to be the pinacle point in design for cast iron planes. Their design has been copied by Lie Neilsen and Clifton, and is the inspiration behind the Veritas version.

What is special about the Bedrock is the design of the frog. Two factors are noteworthy.

Firstly, the adjustments to the size of the mouth may be made without having to remove the blade, cap iron, etc. (as is the case with the Stanley-Bailey and Record planes). Adjustments are much easier and the Bedrock planes are, thus, more versatile. Think of a block plane with an adjustable mouth, then think of a larger plane where it is the frog that moves back-and-forth.

Secondly, the frog supports the blade all the way down to the tip of the bevel (while the Stanley-Bailey, etc does not). It is this factor that is largely responsible for improved planning (i.e. reducing chatter).

The actual quality of workmanship of Bedrocks is not really any different to other Stanley planes. All other parts are, in fact, interchangeable.

I have not used the Veritas planes so am not equiped to comment on whether they are similar-better-worse than Lie Nielsen or Clifton. They are certainly cheaper and have their supporters both here and in the States. There is no doubting the workmanship of the LN planes, and these have a well-earned high reputation. Nevertheless, you could duplicate their quality of performance with a circa 1920 Bedrock plus aftermarket blade and cap iron combination (such as LN or Hock), and this would cost you about half (or less) the $$$ you would spend on the LN.

Outback, good purchase re the #18. It is an excellent block plane just better suited for general work. Keep an eye out for the #65. It will be worth it.

With regards a bigger plane, again you must decide what it is intended for. The #4 and #4 1/2 are smoothers, the #5 and #5 1/2 are jack planes, the #6 is a bit of an all-rounder (I know of one guy who uses a #6 for all his work, smoothing and leveling), and the #7 and #8 are jointers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[outback]

Thanks for clearing up my ignorance re bedrock planes.
I knew there was a difference somehow with the frog.

Re the #5 or #6, At this stage it is all talk, I still gotta find a #65, and have spent considerable $$ the last couple of months on toys for my new found playtime.

Isn't the no 5-1/2 a bit wider than the general run, if so fitting a new blade may be a challenge.

Also do I check/tune the #18 the same as an ordinary plane, in regard to the adjustable mouth?
Thanks for the input.

[derekcohen]

The #5 1/2 is wider (and heavier) than the 5 (which has a 2" wide blade, same as the #4), and shares the same blade as the #4 1/2 and #7 (all 2 3/8"). The blades are plentiful, both from Stanley and from aftermarket sources.

Tuning the #18 is much the same as any handplane. Make sure the bevel on the blade is square to the blade, ditto make sure the mouth is square to the plane body. Make sure that the "frog" is flat and supports the blade (seated bevel up) across its width. Sharpen the blade at 25 degrees. Close up the mouth for a fine shaving and open it when you want a heavy cut.

Regards from Perth

Derek