Leigh or Incra?

[cellist]

Greetings to all. I am considering taking the plunge (so to speak) and buying a much-needed dovetail jig. I've always cut them by hand, but now I have an order for 7 window boxes....hence this post.

Does anyone have a view as to the superiority or inferiority of these two brands relative to the other? Price does matter to me, but as is my philosophy with all tools, I'd rather spend the money once and get the right one than get the wrong one and have to double up later.

Pros and cons comments welcome. Also, views as to why a person would spring for a D4R Leigh rather than one of the "super-jigs".

Thanks in advance for your time.

Mike

[TallTony]

Ill sell you my old leigh Jig hardly used 12 or more years old a few different bits.

I know it has not been used in the last 5 years.


Any offers

David

[cellist]

Which model is it, Tony?
Still not sure which way to go on this one...as the thread suggests. Are you not using it because you have found something better?

Mike

[Big Shed]

At the risk of starting off another Dowelmax/Domino "debate", and also at the risk of preaching to the already converted let me give my take on the above subject.

Before I do, let me declare that I am not an entirely unbiased participant here, I own and use an Incra LS17 with Wonderfence, and love it.:2tsup:

About this time last year I was in the same boat as you, looking for a dovetail jig and didn't know which way to go. I looked at the various options and in the end it came down to your two choices, Leigh or Incra.
Now, today that choice is made slightly easier by a reduction in the price of the D4R and also by the release of cheaper Leigh options.

But let's leave "total cost of ownership" out of it for a moment and concentrate on what the strong and weak points of both systems are.

Leigh is an absolutely beautifully made jig, but to get the most out of it, you need to buy lots of extra add ons.
I really liked the idea of the Leigh and was offered a "trial run" by a forumite (thank you LGS:2tsup:).
This trial run demonstrated to me the, for me, major draw back of dovetail jigs like the Leigh, that is you bring the router to the work. This wasn't so bad with LGS's beautiful Festool router, but I couldn't see myself doing the same sort of thing with my Triton TRA001. A strong point is the variable pin spacing available on the Leigh.

Incra on the other hand takes a different approach, you take the work to the router(table) and to me this seems more intuitive. However that would come down to personal preference. Once you buy the necessary router bits, there are no extras to buy for the Incra, once you have a router table etc. This is another strong point of the Incra, it is not just a dovetail jig or finger joint jig (another extra on the Leigh), it is a fully fledged router fence system with incredible accuracy thanks to its' leadscrew technology.

So with some trepidation, I parted with a considerable wad of the kids' inheritance and purchased an Incra LS17 System with Wonderfence, from one our forum sponsors.
My only regret is that I didn't deprive the kids even more and bought the LS25.

[John Saxton]

Both systems offer up a approach that needs introspection to your own WW time & space requirements.

BS gives a good example of his situation with the Incra as opposed to the Leigh and rightly so that of taking the router to the Leigh to physically manipulate as against using it in a table mounted operation with the Incra to achieve a similar operation.

I have two systems the D4 Leigh and a Ultra 12 Incra both set up independently and each worthy in their own right.

The Leigh was far more expensive in a complete format whereas the Incra was by contrast a lot cheaper to set up.

Inlaid work is capable with both but mor demanding I feel with the Leigh but angled and decorative dovetails/bears ears etc give a different perspective to having a Leigh.

CELLIST whilst you will get varying degrees of aspect on either one it comes down to $$$ , and where you will have a need in the future.

Cheers:)

[cellist]

Gentlemen, thank you! These were among the most informative posts I've read here for a while. Terrific. :2tsup:

Cost aside, I just have a few questions that have entered my grey matter since reading the posts. I have a very good router table (cast) with a Triton TRA001 mounted underneath. Now the questions:

First, I have read of troubles with mating up the members using the Triton, and issues regarding the Leigh 3-bush with this machine. What's your view(s) about ease-of-use with the two jigs? Are there problems with specific routers?

Secondly, there is the supposed advantage of bringing the work to the table, rather than the router to the work. Fine. But....I need to make window boxes that have fronts that are up to 2200 long! Clearly you can't stand the things up to rout them?!:?

More insights, gentlemen?...and thanks again for your insights.

Mike

[cellist]

Further to my questions above, I wonder if anyone can give some insight into what I do with my wonderful dedicated router table. It has a sliding table, but no track slot. Does this rule out the Incra? Cheers!

Mike

[Big Shed]

Further to my questions above, I wonder if anyone can give some insight into what I do with my wonderful dedicated router table. It has a sliding table, but no track slot. Does this rule out the Incra? Cheers!

Mike

Mike, the Incra jig does not rely on a mitre slot.

[damian]

First point:

You can use an incra on your table, it doesn't use a track slot. Go to incra.com and watch the demo videos. The right angle fixture attaches to the fence and the work is clamped to that. All the incra needs is a solid surface to clamp to for teh base mount and a flatish table. The issue is that the base mount has to fix some distance from the tool. On my LS25 the closer edge of the base mont is 27 3/4" from the tool, and the mount is 9" long so to avoid overhang you need 37" to the right of your tool. Now the 25 is one of the longer systems, you can have 5" of overhang and still mount securely and you can add a flip up extension table to the router table to mount the incra, so the problem is able to be solved but you need to realise there is an issue to address.

Second point:

You can attach anything that will fit under your ceiling but for 2.2 meter lengths you'll probably break the right angle fixture. I would build a jig. All you need is a large right angle with a stiffener. The sort of thing you'd build to support that job on any router or saw table so it can stick up.

This leads to the third point:

Your comparing two different things. Dovetail jigs are designed to do one thing, or a limited range, really well. While the incra does joints it is a super fence not a dovetail jig. As is said above in ALL woodworking you either clamp the job and move the tool or you clamp the tool and move the work. Personally if I'm doing a cut on edge of long work I clamp the job, if I'm ripping 8X4 I clamp the job, if I'm taking .5 mm off a stick I clamp the tool. Others prefer to work differently.

You certainly can make pins (is it pins?) in the end of a 2 meter board with an incra, but it will stick up in the air. To do that work on a leigh you either tilt it over or you clamp the board to your saw horse and clamp the jig 2 meters in the air. Bit of a problem.

If you put the other part, the tails ?, in the long edge then you either have a long board hanging off the end of your router table on a roller support or something, just like ripping a long board on a table saw, or it's sticking out the back of the leigh so similar problem. Neither is a big issue.

Point 4:

Choice of router is irrelevant with incra. I got their insert plate predrilled for triton. You don't need thier plate, you don't need a plate. You don't need guides for incra nor special bits. The only issue with incra is mounting the base to something. Provided the base is fixed the tool is solidly positioned and the table fairly flat it just works. I'm not trying to sell the incra, I just don't know enough about the leigh to comment and am just pointing out the lack of issues with the incra. The incra is as good as your router table and has no special requirements apart from the mounting.

I chose incra because dovetails are not my focus, they are a side issue, and the incra does other stuff. If fancy dovetails are your focus then the leigh might be a better option. If you do go incra think about what your going to do. Be aware the length of positioner doesn't limit the total throat, it only limits the distance you can increment. For example you can have a piece 36" long on an ultralite, but you can only put 12" of dovetails on it before re-setting up. You can however put that 12" of tails anywhere on the job. Have a look at the videos. There are some on leigh's site also. So for routing only (no sawing) if you never expect to do more than 12" of joint then an ultralite is a good option, much cheaper than the LS. It doesn't take the wonderfence, which is a nice thing, but you can replicate it's functions with a bit of fiddling.

2c.

[Ron Dunn]

I'm curious about how any jig will work correctly with a 2.2m length of timber.

Any jig I've seen relies on a steady, right-angle clamp. That will be difficult to effect on stock that size.

[damian]

When your putting in that side of the joint on the incra your just sliding the work along the fence. You can build a fence extension if that worries you. If you go the 2 meters vertical route it'll be tricky, but 2 meters horizontal is no worries. I suggest the leigh would be ok also. Might have to fiddle the setup prior to clamping, but your just clamping the jig to the end of the stock. With work that big you could probably forgo attaching the leigh to anything else but the work :)

Another thing about the incra. It fakes through dovetails. It doesn't form both parts of the joint exactly right so you nip out a bit of waste with a knife or whatever and I think there isn't 100% contact across all the joint faces. I think it makes a void. But I think the other jigs do that also. With half blind the part that's blind can haavea a shallow radius on the inside edge and it gets hidden. With through you can't hide it so they cheat a bit. Of course if you really want perfect dovetails you use a saw and chisel :)

[cellist]

Thank you all! I will go with the Leigh system for dovetails....now to find the best (cheapest) place to obtain same. With the U.S. dollar replacing the Aussie as the new "Pacific Peso" it might work out better to buy from the States direct. Thought or experience? Thanks again!

Mike

[Cruzi]

Question for the Incra users, what is the dovetail width limit for it, does it depend on the lead screw ? ie: does the LS17 mean you can do 17" or can you do more or less?


Cellist, buying from the States may work (I'm not a fan of that method, others are), it depends on the total costs, frieght can be a killer, also Australian Suppliers may not honour the warranty or guarantee if you have any trouble.

[Gwhat]

Question for the Incra users, what is the dovetail width limit for it, does it depend on the lead screw ? ie: does the LS17 mean you can do 17" or can you do more or less?


Cellist, buying from the States may work (I'm not a fan of that method, others are), it depends on the total costs, frieght can be a killer, also Australian Suppliers may not honour the warranty or guarantee if you have any trouble.

The LS 17" has a 17" range of movement, however the scales are 16" long, which doesn't stop you from using the full capacity but does require a small reset. Generally the 17" is more than adequate for general needs.

Buying from the US may appear to be the go.... but the support offered locally should be factored into the decision.

Regards

Grahame

[Cruzi]

Thanks for info, always wondered how what limits where for Incra dovetails.

[haggismuncher]

I looked into importing the Leigh D4R from Leevalley.com it was U$450 plus U$102 for postage so U$550 versus A$650 plus shipping from Carbatec. The biggest difference seems to be in extras and templates, they are up to triple the price here. So if you are investing in a full set of stuff it may much be cheaper to import. Import duties shouold not apply as the total cost should be under A$1,000.

Chris

[MSRiverdog]

If I had to have only one it would be the Leigh. I have both but only use the Incra for sliding DT's, slot's and long tenon's and little bit, little bit cut's on my router table, for that stuff it shines. When I bought the Incra I got the 24"(?) arm overkill and just gets in the way, the 16/17" is all most ever need if you go Incra. If you were mounting this an a table saw with a router insert that would make the 24" practical but still could cause a space problem when used for a TS fence. Most of the time no issue, hard to find any fence more micro adjustable than the Incra fence for a saw, but scarey spendy.

[damian]

Depends on what your doing. The right tool always depends on what your doing and how you prefer to do it, $, space available etc. I got the 25" and wish I'd got a 32. It only takes up more space when it's in use. When stored you just slip the positioner up to the tool or take it off...