Handsaw for dovetails

[Matto]

I am looking to learn how to cut dovetails by hand (I know there are lots of jigs around but I want to do it the hard way). I have looked around on the net and at Mik in Adelaide and am a bit bewildered by the choices. I have seen tenon saws, dovetail saws (which look like a tenon but a bit narrower) and all sorts of "Japanese" saws (which seems to cover all sorts of weird and wonderful looking things), all of which claim to be perfect for cutting dovetails. The Japanese saws look reasonable and are about half the price of a Crown dovetail saw but are they any good? I have learned the hard way waiting to get the better tools is better than getting something that is not quite right. Any adive on the best type of saw would be appreciated. Also how many teeth per inch should I be looking for?

Thanks in advance for your wisdom

Matto

[AlexS]

Matto,

When it comes to dovetail saws, the finer the blade and the more TPI you can get, the better. Have a look at the dovetail saws or gentlemen's saws at a good tool supplier. I prefer the dovetail saws, because the fancy handle actually is quite practical. The horn at the bottom of the handle balances the saw in your hand, and you can let the weight of the saw (it should have a heavy brass back) do the cutting.

I've used a Japanese saw too, but for dovetails, I prefer a dovetail saw.

Whichever you choose, you will get a lot of satisfaction from cutting them by hand, and it's really quite quick once you get the hang of it.

Cheers

Alex

[derekcohen]

Matto

First off, good for you choosing to learn to cut dovetails by hand!! You wont regret it. Nothing says fine woodworking like handcut dovetails. The Leighs etc etc produce beautiful joints, but they lack the character and versatility that you get from crafting them by hand.

OK, to the saw. Contrary to what you might think, you do not need a fine set for a dovetail saw. What for? You are going to cut or chisel out the waste area anyway! I have known some cut dovetails with panel saws.

What you want to look for in a dovetail saw is one that will cut to a line as accurately as possible. What is largely instrumental here is the set of the teeth. I have been told (by those whose knowledge I respect) that the Crowns and the Paxs are reasonably good saws, but you will not win any prizes with them. They need to be resharpened before they cut reliably. At the other end of the spectrum (with Western saws), there are the Lie Nielsens and the Adrias. They are very high quality and set to cut straight out of the box. Expensive. You can get just as good a cut from an old Disston (from eBay) but you will need to clean it up and get the teeth professionally sharpened and set. Still, this will be a fraction of the price. On Western saws look to 15 tps in a rip cut.

My money goes on the Japanese saws. They are extremely cheap for the quality of the cut. I have several Z-saws (about $50 each). They cut on the pull (opposite to the Western saws) which means that you can use a thinner blade, which in turn means the cut requires less effort. And they are easy to cut accurately with. Most Japanese saws are mass produced with specially hardened teeth. You replace the blades when they wear out. They down side of Japanese saws is that the teeth can be brittle and break, but this is unlikely to happen if you are sensible. They really do cut better than all but the best Western saws (which cut as well but no better).

It will come down to whether you feel more comfortable pushing or pulling the saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

Matto

One more thing. You may find this jig useful in setting out and lining up shoulder cuts.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7221

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Driver]

Matto

First of all, I applaud your initiative in wanting to learn to cut dovetails by hand. It's frustrating at first but stick with it because the skill comes quickly with practice and you'll get a great sense of satisfaction out of the achievement.

The advice on types of saw from Alex and Derek is - as usual - sound and worthwhile. As with all hand tools, selection has a good deal to do with personal preference - what feels good will generally work well for you. Japanese saws represent very good value for money.

One other device that's a good investment is the Veritas dovetail guide. They make it in two designs: for hardwoods and softwoods respectively (the angles differ). You can buy the guide from Carba-Tec and Timbecon (and, no doubt, Mik). This device is not a jig. It's a guide for the saw and it makes cutting to the correct angle very simple.

Regards

Col

[derekcohen]

Col is right about the Veritas dovetail guide. It is indeed easy to use and will help you produce excellent quality handcut dovetails. I think that it is a great tool to use to teach oneself the principles of dovetail cutting. It helps with the orientation of cuts, and it helps you cut straight - so you can just concentrate on the wonderful experience of creating handcut dovetails. Eventually you will no longer need it. Then it becomes a useful marking gauge!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Fletchy]

I made my own guide with just a bit of brass bent at 90 degrees then we cut them to the same angle.

[rrobor]

I saw (pardon the pun) a small jig about a couple of years back at the Melbourne wood show which was a Japanese saw guide. It just consisted of a powerful magnet on a locking ball joint arm. So once the saw stuck to the magnet it was held at the preset position whilst the sawing action was not restricted. I liked the Idea so got a nice heavy magnet out of the magnetron of a microwave (you get 2) and glued one to a contraption I built from dowling etc and its spot on.

[Claw Hama]

I still like to cut my dovetails by hand too and so just spent a couple of bucks on a Lie Nielsen progressive pitch dovetail saw at the show yesterday. Looks and feels sweet, can't wait to give it a test run. Mind you I have been cutting them for years up till now with, Tennon saws, Japanese saws, Band saws etc. Sometimes you just have to spoil yourself.:U

[Eldanos of KDM]

I use a tiny crown 4" gentlemans saw most of the time for my dovetails if the cuts aren't too deep. Found it at a garage sale unused in its satchel for cheap a couple of years ago. It's great, but possibly a little too fine at something like 25tpi- If I'm really focussed on the job I have very little need for my chisels though) Bugger that just reminded me- it needs a sharpen and I'm not sure I'll be able to do something that fine.
Otherwise I use an old Sandvik flush cutting saw. I think it has about 17tpi at a guess, It's great too.
Glad to hear about you wanting to hand cut dovetails, and I'm the same in wanting to do it the "proper" way. I personally think that if one uses a jig to cut dovetails, then they should have to call it something else, because they'd be getting recognition for something that's kinda fake. That's just me though. My Father says that when he was a young boy starting his apprenticeship in germany, they weren't even allowed to mark out the spacings between the dovetails, and sometimes purposely even made them different sizes (of course they still marked out the cuts though).

Anyways good luck,
Dane

[derekcohen]

Five years ago when this thread started I was using Japanese dozukis. This must have been around the time I switched to Western saws.

Today I am very fortunate to have a few from which to choose: LN, Independence Tools (the forerunner to the LN), and the new Veritas.

These are all quite superb saws. There is not a lot to separate them. I'd say my go-to is the IT (which was sharpened for me by Mike Wenzloff).

Keeping in mind that the Veritas is half the cost of the LN, it is amazing value for money.

These saws are all 15 ppi and filed rip with minimal set. They cut aggressively. I just could not imagine using a fine-toothed Western saw that cut slowly - it would be frustrating and vulnerable to cutting skewly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[trollhameran]

I have cut dovetails with a variety of different saws, from Japanese to 42tpi modelling saws. I really think that it is a matter of personal opinion and whatever works for you is the best way to go. I absolutely love cutting dovetails and wouldn't dream of doing them by machine. Its just so satisfying when you see them finished and theres no gaps in them :D

[IanW]

Well Matto - you got a pretty god plug for high-end saws there! What Derek & the others said is true & excellent advice, as usual, & it all a matter of those teeth - the rake angle & the point.

What the others haven't said is that using these saws is a bit like comparing a Porsche with a Hyundai. The Porche is certainly capable of vastly better performance, but needs to be driven by someone with skill to get the best out of it. So it is with saws - if you are not used to handling these aggressive tooth patterns, you may find yourself struggling a bit. Having a fast-cutting saw with virtually no set is great when you are used to them, but you can't 'steer' such a saw - whatever line it starts on is pretty much what it follows, and you need a light touch or it will bite & even chatter on a thinner piece of wood. I would recommend you start with a saw which has about 15tpi & is filed either as a crosscut or better yet, a hybrid pattern (i.e. some set, a bit of fleam, & a bit more negative rake than a standard rip). However, as it's unlikely you will find a skilled saw sharpener in your vicinity, you probably won't be able to get anything other than a machine-sharpened job. So just get hold of a small saw with about the tight number of tpi & work at starting straight & following a line - it will soon come to you that a saw has its own pace & cutting style. I mention this because I have noticed how people without much sawing experience find some of my saws hard to start & hard to saw smoothly with - it does take a little practice to get the best out of saws filed for aggressive cutting.

If you want to be able to cut & fit water-tight dovetails, it is necessary to be able to cut clean, straight, & square. A lot of people swear by Japanese style saws, but I'm another who prefers the 'pushem' saws. It's mostly because that's what I'm used to, I admit. Pull saws are capable of just as fine work, their only real negative is that as you cut, they feather the wood on the side facing you, blurring your knife or pencil line - not a huge problem when all is going well, but it also means I have to reverse my thinking all the time, & put the face side away from me...

Cheers,
Edit: Just noticed the start date of this thread. I guess Matto is a dab hand at cutting dovetails by now, but my ramblings may be of some interest to other aspiring dovetailers...... :U

[Sam]

Thanks Ian, I am looking to buy a dovetail saw and your comments have been very helpful.

I was leaning towards a dozuki until I borrowed my father's Disston DT saw. The blade is 200mm long and it's a great little saw......'borrowed' may turn into 'keeping' !

So now I dont know which way to go - one the reasons I was going to get a jap DT saw was the ease of just buying a new sharp blade as I seen alot of comments about the lack of skilled saw sharpeners. What are the things to ask of or look for in a good saw sharpener ?

[Claw Hama]

Ian if your dozuki is feathering the edge it may be time you shapened it or bought a new blade too, mine never leaves anything. I now no doubt will swing with the mood as to weather I cut them with the LN DT or the dozuki both are topend saws so if my DT's are dodgy I can only blame one thing.

[IanW]

Ian if your dozuki is feathering the edge it may be time you shapened it or bought a new blade too, mine never leaves anything. I now no doubt will swing with the mood as to weather I cut them with the LN DT or the dozuki both are topend saws so if my DT's are dodgy I can only blame one thing.

Claw - maybe it's me, but some woods feather a bit, & some chip out minutely, even with a very sharp saw. There is nearly always a discernable difference between the entry & exit sides of a cut, which is why I prefer to cut from the face side, that usually being the 'show' side. Granted, the difference is often not much, & may not matter in many situations, but often enough, it does. Some people advocate paring all saw cuts, for that reason (we were taught that way) & I do if both sides will be visible, like door frames on fine stuff, etc.

I freely admit my preference for western saws is purely habit - after 50 years of pushing to cut, I just prefer it that way.
I'm sure you could make perfectly good D/Ts with just about anything that cuts wood, with care & practice - that I won't dispute - Tage Frid cut dovetails with a cumbersome-looking bowsaw, & he was no amateur! I try not to pass on my prejudices, so I usually advise beginners to try different types & sizes of saw, & stick with the one they feel most comfortable with, then go at it til they can make a straight, square cut with both eyes closed; which is what we really want no matter what weapons we choose.

I'm so used to my 'favourite' D/T saw I hardly have to look at the line to know it will follow perfectly, & I wouldn't be able to alternate between two such different saws as you do - be a right mess before lunchtime! However, perhaps the most compelling reason for sticking with western style saws for me is that I can sharpen the darn things. I do like a sharp, clean-cutting saw, & I don't think there's enough years in me to learn how to sharpen those canine thingies on Japanese saws. With my challenged eyesight, it's enough to deal with one angle & keep it constant , but 3?!
:U
Cheers,

[trollhameran]

From my experience in the area where I am, the saw sharpeners here don't have the tools to go much above 15tpi, and they tend to put far to much set on the blade for my liking. If anyone else has this problem, just run a diamond stone along each face of the teeth, one pass only, then try the saw in some scrap timber, keep doing this untill the saw has the ammount of set you want, but be careful not to take to much off or the saw will bind.

[Claw Hama]

All very true Ian and Troll, and Ian as you said the western saws are far easier to sharpen.

[trollhameran]

I thought the Japanese blades were hardened steel anyway. For the price of the replacement blades I can't see that its really worth sharpening them anyway.

[Claw Hama]

Mine is handmade, not the replacable blade type, very sweet saw, although I do have a couple of the others as well.