Goat Island Skiff building in Denmark :-) Sejl-jolle bygges i Danmark

[Maximuss]

As i say in the subject, i have just bought the GIS plan today. Not i really hope that i can make it, i have not any experience what so ever in boat-building and very little in wood-work also. I may trust that even a novice can build it :)

But i just cant wait to get started on building my own sailing-boat. It have been a boys-dream since i were a kid. So it go 20-25 years back now :)

Bjarne Pedersen
Denmark

"Goat Island Skiff bygges i Danmark"
"Sejl-jolle bygges i Danmark".

[Daddles]

As i say in the subject, i have just bought the GIS plan today. Not i really hope that i can make it, i have not any experience what so ever in boat-building and very little in wood-work also. I may trust that even a novice can build it :)

But i just cant wait to get started on building my own sailing-boat. It have been a boys-dream since i were a kid. So it go 20-25 years back now :)

Bjarne Pedersen
Denmark

Ya silly bastard, you're stuffed now! :D

(which is aussie for "well done mate" :rolleyes:)

The GIS is a good boat for a novice builder. Mik works a lot with novice builders and is well aware of their needs and misconceptions. He's put a lot of effort into the design of the boat and into the plans to ensure as much as possible that novices can successfully build one of his boats.

Richard

[Boatmik]

Great news Bjarne,

Feel free to put thoughts and questions up here ... there is also a lot of information if you dig around in these pages too.

Best wishes
Michael

[Maximuss]

hehe, yes im hooked now :)
I know with 100% that there will come a lot of questions on he fly, so be sure you def. not have heard the last from me :)

Im really looking forward to start building it - im going to get the plywood on wednesday. I just need too figure out what i need to start with, i know i need the ply and some wood :)


Best Regards

Bjarne Pedersen

[Boatmik]

Mik works a lot with novice builders and is well aware of their needs and misconceptions.

Richard

What about my needs and misconceptions!!!!

MIK

[Daddles]

What about my needs and misconceptions!!!!

MIK

What about them? :?

Richard

[arbordg]

What about my needs and misconceptions!!!!

MIK

Mik,

I'm so sorry to have to be the one to tell you... your needs and misconceptions are so overwhelmingly vast as to be impossible to address without extraordinary means... unavailable to the mortal man. Maybe we can all pray for divine intervention? :wink:

Will it help if I tell you that my PuddleDuckRacer "Shredder", which was all kitted out with MICHAEL STORER DESIGNED spars, sail (82 sq. ft. balanced lug), foils, etc, came in 4th in the PanGalactic Interdimensional World Championship race on Saturday? If she'd have had a skipper who know his gudgeon from his oarlock, she'd have taken all honors. That boat flat out flies.


"Work is victory" -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Maximuss]

I have been reading in the 'book' now and i could use some more real picture showing each step. The problem is that there is quite a lot of word in english i never have seen before :(
Do you know a website where there is pictures, not drawings, of the building progress. I think that would be a very good supplement for me when i start building.


Bjarne Pedersen
Denmark

[Boatmik]

Hi Bjarne,

A lot of the boatbuilding words are equally difficult for everyone ... sorry about that! I tell you the name for the part as come to that part of the building.

Here are some pictures on Flickr. It doesn't go right through the building process, but should help.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik/collections/72157600859659666/

Also there is Peter Hyndman's GIS site that has a few addtional pics
http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/GIS/

And you can ask any questions here at all!

Best wishes
Michael Storer.

[DALukens]

Maximuss:

Congratulations. I too bought plans only recently (June 4th). I am just about done with the hull, I need to finish one more coat of epoxy, then varnish and paint.

The www.flickr site is invaluable. You should bookmark that site and refer to it often. It was very helpful to have it available as a supplement to the building manual. As they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words."

Good luck,

Dana Lukens

[Maximuss]

The pictures on the flickr.com is really a big help. I were close to give up before i started. I could really not understand so much of the manual.
So now i have the guts to start and then hope this community will help me out with my 117 questions :)

I actually alredy have one. The picture below, is the wood just bend or have it been planed ?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik/1539681678/in/set-72157602972202430/

Bjarne

[Joost]

Bjarne,

If you follow the manual, than you should first plane the underside of the gunwale (= the piece of wood in the picture) into a certain bevel (= angle). Than the whole gunwale is bent in place and glued to the hull structure.

There is a thread further down called GIS - Inwale spacers that might be helpful.

Best regards, Joost

[Boatmik]

The pictures on the flickr.com is really a big help. I were close to give up before i started. I could really not understand so much of the manual.
So now i have the guts to start and then hope this community will help me out with my 117 questions :)

I actually alredy have one. The picture below, is the wood just bend or have it been planed ?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2200/1539681678_59c8b61dfe.jpg

Bjarne

Howdy Bjarne,

A Dutchman and and Yankee helping a Dane on an Australian Forum!

What will we have next ... World Peace!!!

Well done, chaps!

The piece of timber (the gunwale) bends around the hull very easily.

You don't need this number of clamps as you can use the temporary screws and the cordless drill from the inside of the hull.

If you work out where the "spacer blocks" will go when the long inside piece of timber (the inwale) is fitted then the spacer blocks will hide the holes from the screws!

Best wishes
Michael

[Maximuss]

Thx for the answer :)

The way you say it sounds very easy.
I have no more concerns starting to build the boat - im gonna go buy some ply tomorrow so i can start cutting it out.
I have 2 boys and the small one is very much looking forward to we start building the boat and the big one just wanna sail :)

I like how fast you guys are responding on the question. I do really preciate the help from you guys.

I will take pictures along the work and i want to put it up on my website to help other novices. The intend is to document each step, more or less. Im sure im not the only one who would like to have some picures too look at when building.
Version 1 of that would only be in Danish - if there is a need for it i would think about translating it to english.

Yup, the internet is very small and english is a wide-spread language, which make it easy to help eachother :2tsup:

Now i just cant wait to start building :)


Bjarne

[Theodor]

Maxi,

If you want to buy both Koala and I a cheap €1 plane ticket from Slovenia to Denmark, I'm sure we could have this GIS in no time flat!

Then again, my wife is not keen for me to spend hours working out of Koala's workshed building our PDRs, so that might not work.

Anyway, we're around here on the forums if you want to talk European wood varieties. :;

Mark

[Maximuss]

hehe, i think ill stick to plan to do it at my own :D
But nice to know that i have most of the world stading ready to help me :;

Bjarne

[Maximuss]

I actually alredy have one. The picture below, is the wood just bend or have it been planed ?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik/1539681678/in/set-72157602972202430/



Is it essential that the inwale is in one piece or can i use 2 or 3 ??
Im gonna have some problem if i should get it home in one piece after it have been sawed

Bjarne

[Joost]

Bjarne,

You could use 2 pieces, but eventually you would like to glue the gunwales in one piece to the hull rather than in 2 or 3 pieces as this might complicate matters.

If the pieces are shorter than the length of the sheer line (in this case the top end of the plywood), you could join the pieces of wood together using a scarf joint.

This site shows you how to do this:

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/Sites/PDRinfo/PDRbuilding/spars.html (http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/Sites/PDRinfo/PDRbuilding/spars.html)

Another useful site (it is at least for me) is yet another Peter Hyndman site:

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/Sites/eureka/ (http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/Sites/eureka/)

(I had especially a look here for more information on how to glue the gunwales, inwale spacers and inwales in place.)

Regards, Joost

[coogzilla]

You can splice several into one. You can "scarf" them together and will be as strong
as a single piece. Measure thickness. Multiply X6 or 8. Measure and mark from the
end. Do again on the other one to join. Cut bevel across both pieces clamped together. The bevels will match, and then glue them up. Take your time and get
them as close as you can. The joint will be almost invisable to everyone but you!

Coogs

[Maximuss]

Thank you for the answer.
I think ill go for the scarf solution, unless i can get it home in one piece. The solution is ofc to rent a trailer :)

Bjarne

[Joost]

If renting a trailer is not too expensive (and you have to transport the plywood as well I guess), I would personally go for the option of getting the longer wooden parts in one piece. It will save you quite a bit of work: scarf joints on 4 gunwales, 2 inwales, and 2 chine logs.

Joost

[Maximuss]

The Plywood come with a truck - that i have payed for
Ill try to stamp up a trailer.

One more question, what do "gunwales" mean and where is it on the boat ?
The same go for the "chine logs" ?


Thx

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Off to Duck Flat today ... so rushing.

But ...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3021/2801476420_a0c716aeda.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3021/2801476420_a0c716aeda.jpg

Best wishes

[Maximuss]

Thats perfect!
Its exactly what i need - not so many words, just pictures :)

Thank you!

[coogzilla]

Good for you. Get camera and take some pic's as ya go. I plan on a GIS
sooner or later for myself too. Coogs

[CCBB]

Michael, the inside of the Goat looks very slippery!!!

Clint

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

Nice way to deal with it is the same way we did the PDRacers. I couldnt find he pics on the building thread.

You varnish the cockpit floor normally.

Then mask off the area you want to be non skid. Measure and plan it carefully so it looks nice. Doing the whole bottom looks terrible. A glossy margin around the edges and up the middle of the non skid area looks best

Better to have a 50mm margin round the front and edges and keep it about a foot clear at the back. Also leave a 70mm wide area up the middle.

Probably need two small patches either side of the centrecase.

Mask off. Corners need to be rounded off - so put some tape across the corners, use a tin and a stanley knife (carpet knife) to cut the internal corners round.

Sand ready to varnish ... pay attention close to the tape as it is easy to leave shiny spots by accident. Clean up dust.

Put a normal thick coat of varnish down on the areas (if you have a lot to do you may need to do an area at a time. Then .. the magic.

Sprinkle some coarse grain sugar or salt or epsom salts over the wet varnish. Using a sifter gives an even distribution. Just so there is an even distribution of grains. Just so it starts looking like the grade of nonskid that you would like.

Don't push them into the varnish manually, just let them sit. When done remove the masking tape carefully.

Next day put the boat on its side and rinse away the grains. Clear non-skid.

(I didn't do a good job of rinsing with the first boat I did this to many years ago ... and ended up with an ant invasion .. so be warned!)

If anyone has the pics showing this on the PDRs bookmarked...

MIK

[arbordg]

Michael, the inside of the Goat looks very slippery!!!

Clint

Clint,

It could be -- if it were strictly varnish. Instead, it's likely sugared varnish. Just sift some sugar into the final coat of varnish & when it dries... rinse out the sugar, leaving a nice non-slip surface. I used the same technique on the PDR I just built. Works just fine... a sweet solution..... :p I imagine you could achieve the same results with salt.

OOPS, I see Mik beat me to it.


"Don't be sweet. lest you be eaten up; don't be bitter, lest you be spewed out" -- Jewish Proverb

[Boatmik]

Haha David! I beat you by a few seconds!!!

MIK

[arbordg]

Haha David! I beat you by a few seconds!!!

MIK

Less than impressive performance, I'd say, for someone who's almost a full calendar day ahead :p I have to admit, though, that you gave a far more comprehensive account of the process.

[Maximuss]

I have some more questions for the cutting of the Ply.
My problem is that im not sure what to do in this section:

MARKING OUT THE TRANSOM AND FRAMES
Its on page 21

Can somebody tell me what im exptected to do ?

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Hi Bjarne,

It is late here and I have only seen your message now.

I will have a look tomorrow and put some information together if someone else has not written a reply first!

Best wishes
Michael

[Maximuss]

Sounds good, ill be look forward to it :)

Did you recive my response to your email ?


Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Howdy Bjarne,

Sorry about the delay, I am up against some serious deadlines.

If you have marked out the side and bottom of the boat it is the same method. So if you have not marked those out yet then I would suggest doing it first.

The frames and transom all are measured from the centreline shown in each drawing. So you need to draw the centreline first. Put them in the positions shown in the drawing that shows the positions of the parts.

The dimensions are meausements up from the base of each frame and across perpendicular to the centreline.

You can use the edge of the ply sheet as one of the long edges of all the bulkheads except the transom

The only real difference is the transom because you need to mark it out do the dimensions BUT it has to be cut a slightly larger size than that. This means that you should draw it slightly away from the edge of the plywood so there will be enough space to cut it outside the lines. The drawing gives the right information.

Hope this helps
Michale

[Boatmik]

Also this page on the PDRacer site may help. I would mark out the sides and bottom of the boat first.

Please ask any questions here. I will not be available (my time) from about 7pm tonight (ie saturday) until about 6pm tomorrow night.

http://www.pdracer.info/PDRbuilding/markingout.html

MIK

[Maximuss]

Thx for the explanation and the link, Mik

I have another question, its about the mast.

I dont know which too choose, the solid or the hollow mast.
It's most important for me is to get a stabil boat. I will 90% of the time use it for cruising. It will primary be me and my 2 kids (4½ and 8½ year old). So i would prefer comfort and safety over speed at any time!!

"Can anyone tell me if it makes any difference if you have the batton in place or not while reefing?"

What is the batton and what do reefing means ??

I have tryed to find something about it on Google but i did really find a explanation - so if you can help me out :)


Bjarne

[arbordg]

We built our GIS long before Mik designed the hollow rectangular mast version. So, we have a solid, fir, round mast. It's a lot of weight aloft for such a light hull. It becomes particularly noticeable when climbing in & out at the dock, or when beached and climbing in over the bow of the boat, or when rigging at the dock. Also, it takes some careful lifting to keep all that weight vertical while hoisting it up (while the boat's on the trailer) to be stepped. None of it is terrible, but a hollow stick would definitely be an improvement.

Also -- I just recently finished a PuddleDuck Racer. I did the hull before Mik designed his version (the OZ PDR), but did most of the rest of the boat to his specs... including the hollow rectangular mast. I have to say - even though I've built hollow (birdsmouth, coopered, and rectangular) spars before, I continue to be surprised & impressed how much lighter they are. Plus, the lumber for the hollow mast was considerably less money than the beefier stick that would be required for a solid mast.

If I were to build another GIS for myself, I'd choose the hollow mast - without hesitation. In fact, even though it'll require a new mast and a revision to the mast step & partner, I do plan to change to a hollow mast at some point. Or, perhaps I'll keep the step & partner as is, and build a new, hollow, birdsmouth mast. I'll have to think about it.

[Maximuss]

I see the benefit of a hollow mast vs the solid mast.
But what about the safety and stability when sailing ?
As i mentioned before, ill be sailing most of my time with my kids so i really dont care much about speed/racing - for me its safety above all, which in this case is no capsize!


Bjarne

[arbordg]

I see the benefit of a hollow mast vs the solid mast.
But what about the safety and stability when sailing ?
As i mentioned before, ill be sailing most of my time with my kids so i really dont care much about speed/racing - for me its safety above all, which in this case is no capsize!
Bjarne

DanskeBoyka,

Pardon me if I've mangled the language. I'm just trying to remember a bit of the Finnish I spoke as a young child.

Back to boats -- the hollow spar will add to stability. I'm guessing it might be slightly less stong or robust if it came to standing up to a hard, hard wind. I'm just guessing, but Mik can answer more precisely. I'd further guess that - if it's blowing that hard, you shouldn't be out on the water at all, and you'd have other problems to worry about long before.

I once had ours out on a lake, reefed down to a very small sail area, with winds in the 25 - 35 mph range. No ballast except my tightly clenched posterior. With the solid mast, I had no sense of it being overly stressed (though, sometimes with a mast you don't know till it breaks). I think I'd have noticed. I've been working with wood, in various applications, for over 35 years. My adrenaline level was high. I was checking every part of the boat in rapidfire fashion. The largest part of my attention, however, was focused on the water to windward, so I could anticipate what the wind had in store for me. My main goal throughout was to keep the boat upright, and not allow her to get knocked down by a strong, sudden gust - especially while heeled the wrong way on a wave. Those were extreme conditions for that boat with inexperienced me at the helm. In fact, none of the other comparable sized (or bigger) boats were out with the exception of a 30+ foot fiberglass boat scooting around under jib only - having a grand old time.


"There are some things you learn best in calm. Some in storm" -- Willa Cather

[Maximuss]

hmm, thats app. 6/7 on the Beaufort Scale - you are right about that one, im not going out in that wind with my kids.

What is the recommend Beaufort or the m/s (meter / second) ??

Sounds like it's going to be the hollow mast :)

Perhaps somebody can explain this for me:

"Can anyone tell me if it makes any difference if you have the batton in place or not while reefing?"

What is the batton and what do reefing means ??


Bjarne

[jmk89]

reefing - reducing the size of a sail so it copes better with a strong wind
batten - a solid (often wood) piece inserted into a sail to help it maintain its designed shape

[Maximuss]

reefing - reducing the size of a sail so it copes better with a strong wind
batten - a solid (often wood) piece inserted into a sail to help it maintain its designed shape

Great! Thx :)

How do you make your sail shorter ??

Bjarne

[jmk89]

Shorter - Just means making the sail smaller

[Maximuss]

I have been trying to see if i can find a picture of a reefed GIS, but there dont seems to be any - do some of you have one so i can take a look ?
The guy that's gonna give me some sailor-lessons asked if it could be reefed - i sayed yes to that and when he asked me how and i if i have a picture - well, how and do i have a picture of it :)

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Howdy Bjarne,

If you tell your friend it is conventional "slab reefing" like on most racing yachts then they will hopefully understand.

If they need to understand how the normal rigging of the GIS works they should look at this page.
http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html

It is very important that the sail is in the same position in the plan.

The reefing style is the same as most racing yachts "slab reefing".

The same system is used on my BETH sailing canoe.

Here is BETH with her full mainsail
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3179/2574645871_89f479763a.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik/sets/72157605586297710/here is my whole set of beth sailing canoe photos on flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik/sets/72157605586297710/)

Here is a distant picture of my sailing canoe Beth with a reefed mainsail.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2288/1599911441_1bb60de67b_o.jpg

Here is BETH just before or just after the same sail.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2150/1599911847_ca4ba5862e_o.jpg

Basically you slacken the rope that pulls the sail up. Then pull the sail down and tie it off to the boom (the timber along the bottom edge of the sail). The lashing (tie) only needs to be at the back and front of the boom only.

Hope this helps your friend

Best wishes
Michael

[Maximuss]

Hey Mik

Picture says more than 1000 words :)
Now i now what hes talking about, im gonna show him the pictures next time i see him.

Thank you for your help!
It's nice to get answer so fast after i have asked a question

ohh, one more question, what is the recommended wind-speed for a fun cruising with my kids and no capsize ?

It's unbelievable that's it cheaper to buy the sail-kit from polysail include carriage to Denmark than it's to buy it at home :(


Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Hi Bjarne,

it is possible to capsize in any wind speed.

However there are lots of ways to help prevent it.

One is to have some people in the boat!
One is to build your sailing skills - practice and go sailing with other people on their boats, pay for some lessons from a local sailing club. Everything helps!
One is to put some extra weight in the boat ... DavidG started off sailing with two 30kg bags full of sand under the centre seat. This will make a BIG difference
One is to reef the boat - because the boat moves so easily you don't need a lot of sail to sail well.

BTW ... Now David G has been sailing for a year or two he never puts the sandbags inside the boat now.

Michael

[Maximuss]

Hi Mik

I have also considered the sand-bags option, atleast in the beginning, my father have so many sandbags that i can sink the boat if i want ;)
And reefing the sail sounds like a very good idea - in the beginning is speed not that important, i prefer not to capize :)

Bjarne

[b.o.a.t.]

I wouldn't want to capsize at 56deg North either.
Cold enough for me at 35deg South.
Too cold actually. :cold:
Sandbags & reefed sail. All good. :2tsup:

Leaving on the trailer would be even drier. :U

[Maximuss]

Yup, that's true. One of the reason why its so important to do what i can to prevent capsize. Our water is very cold for app. 3/4 of the year. The sailing season is only 3-4 month each year.

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Main thing is that the boat will perform quite well even with the reefed sail.

Michael

[arbordg]

And the boat performs well with the two 70# sandbags. I view them as my "training wheels". They could also come into play if I wanted to sail solo in a hard blow.


"In a time of drastic change, it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists" -- Eric Hoffer

[Maximuss]

Hey again

I have been talking with some family today and we did, ofc', talk about my boat-project (he is a active sailor) and we were talking about the use of the boat where im gonna sail with it. One thing we were talking a lot about is that the bottom of the sea is very rough, there can be some rather big stones scattered around the bay and the deep of the water can vary pretty much. Actually so much one place i can a lot of water below the boat and 20m away i can the bottom. Sometimes it would be a rocky bottom with stone a the a very vary size.
I think that the biggest problem would be the spear/keel can hit the bottom if im unlucky and perhaps also the rudder (not sure its the right word, but the piece you turn the boat with)
So here i have been wondering if there is something i can do to prevent damage to the boat ?

Another thing is that no matter where i decide to go to land will there be stones, properly not big stones, the biggest is normally on size of a egg. So i have really considered laying some glasfibre on the bottom to prevent damage. I have been looking at something with 300g and i cant get a 5m2 sheet and polyester for a fair prize, so there will be enough for 2 or 3 layer on the bottom.
Is that a solution that have any kind of impact on the sailing of the boat ?
I know it will get app. 10kg heavier, but i can live with that more easy than i can with the boat being wrecked everytime i hit the beach!

Bjarne

[coogzilla]

There prices are ok, shipping I don't know.

http://www.fiberglasssite.com/servlet/StoreFront

Coogs

[Boatmik]

Hi Bjarne,

As you get used to sailing the boat you will become quite good at knowing where rocks in the water are. But you will hit them sometimes ... we all do.

The rudder is the perfect system .. it is very difficult to damage because the blade moves out of the way if it hits anything.

The centreboard is unlikely to get much damage ... if you are really unlucky you will damage it. But usually you can hit lots of things without doing much damage. It is almost impossible to damage the hull and with BETH or peter's GIS I have had to do two repairs when the damage has been too much. And the water is shallow in both places.

I have hit things really hard with the GIS, BETH and the PDRs. The damage to the GIS and the PDRs would not have been noticed by most people, but I fixed it by sanding and a couple of coats of epoxy to make sure it was OK.

I have never used one on my boats, but some racing boats make a shock absorber by getting a length of garden hose (plastic hose for putting water on the garden) and put a length inside the centrecase down the back. Hold it to the case with two small screws with washers under the heads. The bottom end of the hose should be about 12mm shorter than the lenght of the case.

If there are only a few egg sized stones on the shore I probably would not worry too much, but if it is very common and very hard to avoid then some fibreglass will work well. Use a very light glass and only a single layer. A typical weight that will work well is 75gsm or 2oz.

Bigger boats find that this weight of glass works well over plywood.

Glass adds more weight than almost everyone expects ... so I don't like to use it too much. Do the glassing before the long pieces of timber go on the bottom of the boat.

If the glass goes around the corners onto the side panel you DON'T need to use the 50mm glass tape in the plans.

If using glass you can cover the bottom and go 25mm around the corner of the bottom onto the sides of the boat.

Best wishes
Michael

[Maximuss]

Hey Mik

Its ont only a few stones, they are everywhere - it would almost impossible to avoid them if im gonna sail ashore anywhere there will be stones :)

The lightest glassfibre i can find here is 300g / 1m2 - i have trouble comparing it with the measurements that you use 'down there'
If you say that one layer of glassfibre is enough, ill stick to that.

Sound good that the rudder and the centreboard can take some damage too without breaking.

Thank you

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Hi Bjarne,

Keep an eye out for lighter cloth.

That one is really heavy! But if there is no choice you will have to use it.

The normal heavy cloth for boats of this size is around 200gsm. And if you can find lighter then that is even better.

[CCBB]

http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1|10918|16458&id=311437&start=21&results=6&sort=products (http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1%7C10918%7C16458&id=311437&start=21&results=6&sort=products)

These guys are pretty international....this link should bring you to the 2 oz. cloth section.

Here is a link to get some Kevlar...it is very hard to wet out I have heard but it would sure sheath the hull.
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search_subCategory.do?categoryName=Kevlar&categoryId=523&refine=1&page=GRID

The thing about f'glass is that it is not very abrasion resistant. If we're going to go through the work (I too am beaching on jagged rocks), perhaps we should think about Kevlar or Dynel is also abrasion resistant. Dynel apparantly does better vacuum bagged in place b/c it swells. These latter cloths are going to be expensive, unfortunately. The Defender link has a 1 oz. 'angel hair' f'glass cloth.

I've seen it done, but what is your though on Kevlar Michael for those of use whose beaches are rock?

Cheers,
Clint

[Maximuss]

I have been googling around on the net and its very difficult to find something smallere than 300g. So i think im gonna stick to that. I'll just use one layer then and dont hope the boat would get way to heavy.

Bjarne

[Maximuss]

http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1|10918|16458&id=311437&start=21&results=6&sort=products (http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1%7C10918%7C16458&id=311437&start=21&results=6&sort=products)

These guys are pretty international....this link should bring you to the 2 oz. cloth section.

Here is a link to get some Kevlar...it is very hard to wet out I have heard but it would sure sheath the hull.
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search_subCategory.do?categoryName=Kevlar&categoryId=523&refine=1&page=GRID

The thing about f'glass is that it is not very abrasion resistant. If we're going to go through the work (I too am beaching on jagged rocks), perhaps we should think about Kevlar or Dynel is also abrasion resistant. Dynel apparantly does better vacuum bagged in place b/c it swells. These latter cloths are going to be expensive, unfortunately. The Defender link has a 1 oz. 'angel hair' f'glass cloth.

I've seen it done, but what is your though on Kevlar Michael for those of use whose beaches are rock?

Cheers,
Clint


Sorry, you posted after me :)
Kevlar, hmm, im very novice and have never worked with glasfibre before, and my budget is limited, so ill think ill stick to glasfibre
But thx for the advise!

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

Actually I disagree. Glass is abrasion resistant ENOUGH.

Compared to kevlar and Dynel it is poorer but

1/ It does give extra stiffness and strength to the hull which Dynel does not - this may not be important when the Dynel is protecting something out of thick wood

2/ It is OK for fair out edges and feather joins ... which Dynel and Kevlar do not

3/ Kevlar is terrible stuff to handle .... you can't cut it (most scissors or knives will stop cutting after a few feet, you can't grind it (it just fluffs up) it also is really hard to wet out.

The 2oz glass will work over the 6mm ply bottoms and sides of these boats of which there are dozens launched. The honourable Jarcat. The loads will be somewhat less on the goat.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/%7Erhturner1/ALLEGR3.jpg

Also the 2oz (75gsm) glass is a delight to use .. particularly for people who have little or no experience with "sheathing" .. very easy to wet out with very little risk of floating up on the resin which the Dynel can do too.

By the way .. before finding out about the Jarcat glass weight I did spend a lot of time heartaching about what was best or enough. But nice to know the lighter cloth is enough if local conditions necessitate glassng the bottom.

Best wishes
Michael

[jmk89]

Hi Bjarne

Don't give up on getting lighter fibreglass cloth. It is worth it. Try model aeroplane suppliers....

[CCBB]

There is 2.3 oz listed here at Duckflat...you should have no problem finding it...see also link I posted a few posts back if you haven't seen them already.

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/materials.php#Glass%20Cloth%20(per%20metre)

Good luck.

Clint

[BobWes]

FWIW: TAP Plastics offers a 1.4 oz "Lightweight Plain Weave."

http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=13&

Bob

[Maximuss]

Great!
Thx for the links. I prefer a danish company but if i cant find it then i must by over sea. Same problem do i have with sails, so far is polysail.com the cheappest

Bjarne

[Maximuss]

As you can see here is it this kind of beach in most of Odense Fjord:

http://i2-images.tv2.dk/s/19/1969419-36a4df835ff2583f44b4911f3247a751.jpeg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2072/2187895088_6398e2a271.jpg?v=0

http://www.7days.dk/images/Fish/spots/dk/fyn/stenhovedet/stenhovedet080905d.JPG

This 3 pictures give a good idea of what kind of terrain there is

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Those Glaciers have been really busy Bjarne!

(and everyone else ... I am flabbergasted (speechless with amazement ... my guess is it means my lips are moving but I can't make any air move around) about all this help you are giving!!!!)

If these pictures are typical, then I understand your problem perfectly now.

Nice sunset too!

What species of plywood did you end up using Bjarne?

Best wishes
Michael

[Maximuss]

I asked my local store what kind of plywood they had that were waterproof, he told me to use something named "Østen-krydsfiner", difficult to translate, but its not state-of-the-art but again, not the bottom. I could suspect that it close to marine-plywood. I have found out that its used much for boat-building here in Denmark, so total waste of money it cant be :)

And yes, thoose images are typical for the shore in Odense Fjord. If im lucky i can find a few places with fewer stones, but i will for sure not hold my breath until it happens!

Now you perhaps understand why i think some more heavy glasfibre would be preciated than nothing. Im not sure the boat would last one day!

Bjarne

[Maximuss]

Only the North Sea have theese beaches and thats not a place for a small boat like the GIS!

http://www.visitvest.dk/public/image/galleri/stor/g%C3%A5tur%20med%20hunden1.JPG_ao0tjycp.jpg

and to get there i have too drive app. 200 km each way, so ill stick to Odense Fjord (Odense Bay)

[Maximuss]

i have been thinking about if it's possible to use one of the seats as a storage room when sailing.
I could use some space for my anchor, bailer. And ofcourse i need space for the bbq, coca cola etc :)
But only if it dont go out over the boats performance

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Bjarne, the middle seat can be perfect for this

You can either put the things under (see the photos of Jack of Mudjimba ... you don't need to change the seat this much)

The other way is it would be easy make the middle seat into a box with a lid. But you would have to provide a method for water to go from in front of the seat to behind the seat (ie soem tubes).

Michael

[Maximuss]

I'll use the middle seat for this then. I will figure out somekind of hinge and then some tubes, that was a very good idea :)

I have been thinking about the capsize, would it perhaps be a good idea to fill polystyrene in the rear seat, would that make it more easy to get the boat up again or perhaps just close it so there cant run water in it ?

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

you can buy manufactured hatches which are better in some ways.

For structural reasons the mid seat needs to be glued together, but you can have some holes with covers if you want.

Anyone got some photos of kayak type hatches or ply cutout hatches to show Bjarne.

Any boat.

Michael

[b.o.a.t.]

like this step-by-step sequence from One Ocean Kayaks ?

19. Hatches (http://oneoceankayaks.com/Wshophtm/Shop19.htm) - cutting out http://oneoceankayaks.com/Wshophtm/Shop19.htm

20. Hatches 2 (http://oneoceankayaks.com/Wshophtm/Shop20.htm) - making composite seal-channel http://oneoceankayaks.com/Wshophtm/Shop20.htm

21. Hatches 3 (http://oneoceankayaks.com/Wshophtm/Shop21.htm) - bonding channel to deck http://oneoceankayaks.com/Wshophtm/Shop21.htm

22. Hatches 4 (http://oneoceankayaks.com/Wshophtm/Shop22.htm) - seal gasket and hardware http://oneoceankayaks.com/Wshophtm/Shop22.htm

cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

AJ, you were the man I thought would answer this!!!

Bjarne, There is the choice of putting the hatch in the top like in the kayak or on the front or the back of the seat.

I would not use this type of hatch for the rear or front seat.

Michael

[Maximuss]

thank for the help.

I will go for the back of the middle seat, not the top. The top will properly be used by my childrens, so i think it would be better to take a side.

I think im gonna make a square hatch with some clamps of somekind to get it in place. I have a good idea of how to do it.

Is there any special reason why the plans is talking about cutting out the ply in the middle at the bhd #2, and bhd #3 ?
In my case the middle seat is not a so good idea since im gonna use it for storage room :)
So for the look of the boat im considering not to do it anywhere.

Bjarne

[Maximuss]

Here is some more building questions.

On page page 24 there is "Make Stem", what is that and where is it located ?
And on the transom is there a hole on the all the images for the rudder, where is that in the manual, i cant locate it ?

I'm about to start working on the bulkheads, but i would like them to keep the wood-look. If i have read Mik's guides right, then you are using epoxy to get a good look on the plywood - as in epoxy glue, right ?
I don't want to use it all over the boat, it's to expensive and i do get the epoxy paint for free. But i would like to keep the wood-look on my bulkheads, seats and the gunwales.

The epoxy im using is this:
http://www.wessex-resins.com/West_System/product_range_105_resin.htm
with the 205 Standard Hardener

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

The stem holds the two side panels together at the front of the boat.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik/1503524857/in/set-72157602972202430/

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2184/1503524857_fbec76aa8f.jpg

The epoxy you are using is good. They supply the right powders for gluing.

I would strongly recommend three coats of epoxy any areas you cannot get to later or any areas that will be clear finished. It will make the boat much less maintenance, particularly if it is going to be stored outside in a Danish winter.

If you can afford enough epoxy to do the whole boat I would strongly recommend it!!!

Best wishes
Michael

[Maximuss]

The epoxy you are using is good. They supply the right powders for gluing.

I would strongly recommend three coats of epoxy any areas you cannot get to later or any areas that will be clear finished. It will make the boat much less maintenance, particularly if it is going to be stored outside in a Danish winter.

If you can afford enough epoxy to do the whole boat I would strongly recommend it!!!

Best wishes
Michael

I get epoxy paint for both inside and outside so i'm only gonna coat some of the areas that i would like to keep the wood-look. And epoxy is nasty expensive, like everything else here in Denmark, 5 kg cost $310 so if i need 10-15 kg....yak!


Bjarne

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

WOW Bjarne ... that is expensive.

When you store the boat outside during winter think of any surface where water might wet.

The normal way to store the boat for long periods is upside down but raised so that air can get under. maybe upside down on the trailer.

Anything that can get wet should have three coats of epoxy on it .. so
inside of centrecase,
gunwales and
inwales.

During summer the boat might be upright. Would be nice to put epoxy on the
floor and chine logs and the floors inside the seats. The rest of the areas inside the seats can be done with the epoxy paint.

If you are careful with the epoxy application you can reduce the amount you need. Don't add solvent because the epoxy becomes useless.

But if you use the correct paint rollers - thin foam on the surface - like these
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=2518&familyName=Epoxy-Plus+Roller+Cover

And do two coats wet on wet as explained in the instructions on the areas you need to.

You can save money by getting a roller handle that is only 75mm long (the one in the link below is longer)
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=2124&familyName=Redtree+Paint+Roller+Frames

Then the roller can be cut into 3 pieces about 75mm long.

Michael

[Maximuss]

Yes, epoxy is expensive that i just dont use it like it wihout considering where i use. If i have to get 10-15 kg then it would cost more than the entire boat :(

I have a tarpaulinto protect again rain and the boat will always be stored upside down and im building some kind of stand so the boat will be raised a little and with room for the mast.

The inside of the centercase will properly get a epoxy-paint or some glassfibre. I think i will save my epoxy for gunwales and perhaps the seats.

Bjarne

[CCBB]

Bjarne, you can also coat the inside of the case (and the board too) with 3 or so layers of epoxy and the final coat mix in "graphite power" per the directions and if you then wet sand that lightly with a scotchbrite pad you get an incredibly smooth and slippery surface...reduces friction between board and case and maybe drag between water and board. I don' have a lot of test results except that I did this in my current dinghy and seems fine.

Clint

[Maximuss]

Compass, thank you for the advice.
I will consider your method when i get to it, i just have one question, what is "graphite power" ?

Bjarne

[b.o.a.t.]

I think that should read "graphite powder"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite

cheers
AJ

[Maximuss]

hmm, that need further investigation :)

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

There have been several phases in boating history when graphite has become popular for coating boats.

It feels smooth and slippery, but the problem is that the water layer actually touching the boat is moving along with it ... so it doesn't matter how slippery the surface ... because there is nothing slipping.

Within a very thin distance from the boat the water is moving past the boat at close to the boat's speed.

That water that is mostly moving along with the boat is called the "boundary layer".

The thing that makes the big difference is the smoothness of the surface ... no lumps and bumps as this reduces the turbulence inside the boundary layer (turbulence is always wasted energy that can't be used for moving the boat forward.

But polishing the boat with water resistant waxes and silicones is bad too - bubbles will stick to the bottom of the boat making the surface rougher.

Best wishes
Michael

[CCBB]

Interesting about the waxes...so super good priming and sanding and a fabulous roll-and-tip job are in order.

West System sells graphite powder.

Cheers,
Clint

[arbordg]

Around here, the boatbuilders that use graphite powder are the Drift Boat folks. They're maneuvering around in some swift-flowing rivers; with gravel bars, jutting rocks, barely submerged rocks, and treetrunks. The graphite treatment allows them to slide across submerged obstacles without needing to repaint after every encounter.


"The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was possibly a poet. The first one to repeat it was possibly an idiot" -- Salvador Dali

[Maximuss]

arbordg, that sounds very interesting, becouse im gonna sail in very shallow water - between tides there can be between 1m at the extreme. And there is some stones which i for some strange and unknown reason always seems to get a *little* too close too :wink:
Another problem is that where there can be 1.5m water and 10m further out is there 0.5m water - so i have to say that my biggest concern is the centrecase and the rudder.

I will def. look into the Powder stuff.

Bjarne

[CCBB]

Bjarne, If you can't fine the powder don't worry, it isn't really totally necessary. Where I have used it and seen it used on boat that I have taken sailing is on the daggerboard and rudder and it SEEMED to make the process of putting the blades in place pretty smooth...low friction, nothing seemed to ever bind up. So it is worth some research and fill us in on what you learn b/c it is still new to me. And for the bottom of the boat, using the graphite epoxy approach MAY be a little overkill...glassing the boats bottom and maintaining it well will be fine enough. But I know what you worry about; our beaches are really rocky too.

Clint

[Maximuss]

The bottom sounds also pretty much overkill for me :)
The rudder and daggerboard is where i will use it, and if it can save it from scratch etc. when hitting rocks, bottom etc. then it will be worth it.
And if West System is selling it then there is no problem, becouse the epoxy glue im using IS West System :)

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Hey David!

The driftboats are a good point. I do tend to think the idea of graphite/epoxy coated bottoms is rubbish (note ... this is my BIAS ... I have zero evidence.

I can cancel out the claim for low drag (as I did above) ... it just cannot work. Where ppl tout one wrong idea without evidence there is a good chance that their others MAY be of a similar ilk.

BUT .... just had the thought ... fast flowing rivers will mean the stones are rounded?

There may be some chance that a graphite bottom sliding across a smooth rounded stone might get some lubricating effect.

Stream of consciousness here ... I was about to argue that the graphite may have some useful effect but then thought ... but if is is possible to SAND the graphite, rather than the sandpaper slide across the surface uselessly then the rocks will do the same thing.

Make up some graphite and see if it does sand easily enough.

.... thinking more ...

OK ... actually already done ... WEST pioneerd the method of laying teak veneer decks in simulated planking by laying it in graphite/epoxy mix. They let it ooze then sand the lot after. They have done it on very large boats so if it was hard to sand then it would be a useless material for that method

So you can sand the graphite/epoxy easily enough .. so I think the graphite is VERY unlikely to work.

Easy to do a test or two though! Make a panel up half normal epoxy coats, half graphite epoxy.

1/ try to sand both with different grade papers. There needs to be a significant difference for it to make a difference when skidding across a rock.

2/ put a couple of drywall screws near the end of a medium weight bit of wood and drag the points across both surfaces. There needs to be a gross easily sensed difference here too.

You can probably guess that the sloppy experimentation and scientific ignorance of Mythbusters drives me crazy!!!!

I'd be reckoning that the real advantage is that the drift boat guys are just happy not touching up paint after every trip; and claiming other benefits is because they love the idea so much!!!

Best wishes
MIK

[Maximuss]

okay, Mik, you have convinced me not to be the first one to check that out :U
I'll stick to your plan.
Is there any benefit in 'fibre the inside of the centercase ?

btw, Mythbusters is great - dont know about that science, but it sure is pure entertainment :2tsup:

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Howdy Bjarne,

If you want you can put some glass inside the centrecase. Keep the glass away from the areas where the timber is going to glue.

Best wishes
Michael
(did you see the new thread about Jason's blue GIS)

[Maximuss]

Sounds good, i think im gonna use som glass then
And yes, i have seen hes boat - its nice. I also like the blue color, but i prefer white :)

Tomorrow its glue time :)

Bjarne

[Maximuss]

I'm a little confused, im in the progress of placing the Bulkheads. But i can't find out where they are placed. I'll try to explain what i mean.

If you look at the picture named boatmik.jpg you can see i have drawen BHD 1 to 4 on the image. And if you look at the picture Drawing.BHD.jpg i have done the same.
But what confuses me is that on the image from Mikael is that BHD #2 and BHD #3 is very close to eachother, but if you look at the drawing_bhd.jpg is the BHD #3 and BHD #4 very close to eachother, which i dont understand.
I have been looking at several pictures that all seems to be the same as in Mik's boat. There is obvious something i have misinterpret, but what ?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3260/2810784890_5540ae88e9_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3216/2762514930_7d85103397_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2133/1503720547_edc5261169_o.jpg

Bjarne

[Boatmik]

Always good to check Bjarne!

The bulkhead that you have labelled at number 1 is actually number 2. You cannot see number 1 because it is hidden under the front seat.

At the middle seat there is only one bulkhead in the plan and you have two labelled. It is located at the rear edge of the seat.

Hope this helps
Michael

[Maximuss]

'morning (atleast from a Danner point of view, its 7:30 here ;))

That solved one of my concern. The other one is that i'm kinda dum - i were looking at the front and reading it for being the stern :B:roll:
A good reason not to work when you are tired and got a headache

One other thing, is it possible to buy the dagger-board and the ruder ??
I'm pretty sure thoose two thing is out of my league.

Bjarne

[b.o.a.t.]

One other thing, is it possible to buy the dagger-board and the ruder ??
I'm pretty sure thoose two thing is out of my league.
Bjarne

I reckon you'll be surprised how easy it is Bjarne.
The foils work best if they are perfect.
They will still work if not perfect.
The template MIK supplies makes it easy to get very close to perfect.
Just clamp your board firmly to a flat, straight surface, & keep wearing down the
high spots as per Michael's directions.
Practice on a spare length of timber or ply off-cuts.
cheers
Alan J

[Boatmik]

Hi Bjarne,

they are two or three hours of work. If you found a second hand rudder and centreboard for the LASER they will fit Ok, but you need to make the centreboard case a little wider to match the Laser centreboard.

You will lost a bit of performance but the boat will still go pretty good.

Did you see the way the template works for shaping the GIS centreboard and rudder blade? It is pretty simple.

You can see on the OZ PDRacer site
Making Accurate Centreboard and Rudder Blades/Foils (http://www.pdracer.info/PDRbuilding/foilsandrudderca.html)

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/Sites/PDRinfo/PDRbuilding/buildingpics/Foils/Resources/pdrfoils008.jpeg

MIK