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Ch4iS
12th September 2008, 07:42 PM
Thought I could start showing what I have done so far as I finally got a camera.

First up, finally finished my controller box minus the home switch plugs as I havnt set them up yet.



http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9170/controllerbox2wv1.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=controllerbox2wv1.jpg)

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2185/controllerbox3zt1.th.jpg (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=controllerbox3zt1.jpg)

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8091/controllerbox1qn8.th.jpg (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=controllerbox1qn8.jpg)

I'll get some pics of my router machine when I finish painting it (normally I wouldnt bother but its made of steel and starting to rust)

Frankmc
12th September 2008, 07:51 PM
Looks good Chris ...love the blue leds ;-)....How did you glue the acryilic together...

Nice work
Frank

Ch4iS
12th September 2008, 08:04 PM
Looks good Chris ...love the blue leds ;-)....How did you glue the acryilic together...

Nice work
Frank


Weldon Solvent cement for acrylic. Bonds them together.

Wasnt planning on using the blue led fans but all my budget went on the quick connect with locking mechanism, so I just used some I had lying around (had 5 of them I bought ages ago, were noisy but with a cnc router it wont matter)

rodm
12th September 2008, 08:30 PM
Nice work Chris. :2tsup:

Get the brush out and let's see the new machine. :D

Greolt
12th September 2008, 08:34 PM
I can see where the name Blue^Ray comes from now. :U

Greg

Zoot
12th September 2008, 09:55 PM
I am a member of a Rescue Squad here in the Southern Highlands, mainly involved with road rescue work. My ute is decked out with flashing lights and strobe lights for travelling to accident scenes. I did not even consider the idea of flashing lights on my CNC machine ... great food for thought!!
Forget the rust ... bring on the photos.

Cheers,
Alan

rodm
12th September 2008, 11:49 PM
They do make a lamp for CNC machining centres. :)
It is a pole with green, amber and red but I have no idea what each colour represents.

Ch4iS
12th September 2008, 11:54 PM
Forget the rust ... bring on the photos.


I'll get some pics up tommorow before I apply the flat black, main part already has 2 cans of grey primer applied.

Not sure what the pros on the forum will say, I never followed any premade plans :D

Ch4iS
13th September 2008, 06:22 PM
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6356/s6300267id1.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s6300267id1.jpg)

Steel with skate bearings. Will post some pics of the belts attached when I finish painting it.

rodm
13th September 2008, 06:41 PM
That is a tease. :D
Need to see more and some detail of how it works. Looking very professional so far. :2tsup:

Ch4iS
13th September 2008, 06:48 PM
:D

Got the Y axis done but I might be changing the carage some way to suit the Z axis. The carage for the Y axis is a bunch of skate bearings, 25x25 steel and threaded rod.

When its painted you'll see how it works :D

Just finished can #1, #2 will go on tommorow and if needed can #3.


The X axis is a pretty ugly design as I had to work with the bench as I got that done first before planning anything, then I stuffed up the belts and cut them too short, all sorts of mistakes. Should have the painting done by monday/tuesday then ill start to assemble and you can see what I mean.



More tease

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/942/s6300268yw2.th.jpg (http://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s6300268yw2.jpg)

Picture of my cluttered work bench, first thing I ever build, well its the 2nd but the first was a smaller version. BTW this was after I cleaned it up. Y axis is on the back of the table I didnt go in the garage because of the fumes (I am paranoid, and yes I wore a proper mask when painting)

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/7484/s6300269mh4.th.jpg (http://img364.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s6300269mh4.jpg)

rodm
13th September 2008, 07:02 PM
Yeah I know what you mean about cans of paint. I use about 4 undercoat and 6 colour for my bases. Mind you it is the $2.00 a can special at Supercheap so it doesn't hurt the hip pocket too much.
Your build is typical especially on the first attempt. Even if you take the time and draw it all out you still need to modify on the fly as you build it. There are just so many elements and we concentrate on each bit and sometimes forget the big picture. I was a draftsman many years ago but I don't have the discipline to draw a machine before I start building. Best I do is a back of the envelope sketch. :-
Look forward to the next installment.

Ch4iS
13th September 2008, 07:04 PM
Yeah I know what you mean about cans of paint. I use about 4 undercoat and 6 colour for my bases. Mind you it is the $2.00 a can special at Supercheap so it doesn't hurt the hip pocket too much.
Your build is typical especially on the first attempt. Even if you take the time and draw it all out you still need to modify on the fly as you build it. There are just so many elements and we concentrate on each bit and sometimes forget the big picture. I was a draftsman many years ago but I don't have the discipline to draw a machine before I start building. Best I do is a back of the envelope sketch. :-
Look forward to the next installment.


Next time I will be using the cheap stuff.

I used cheap grey for the primer but ive been using the expencive stuff from bunnings (had 2 cans already but looks like it will need at a minimum 3) $15 a can I think it was. I've had a bad experience with the cheap stuff previously (when i was 15/16) so maby I was just doing it wrong as the cheap primer went on great.

I love how the Flat Black is comming out :D

rodm
14th September 2008, 12:16 AM
Spray outside if you can - as long as it is not windy or raining it is much easier than trapping all the fumes in the shed.

Ch4iS
14th September 2008, 06:51 PM
Spray outside if you can - as long as it is not windy or raining it is much easier than trapping all the fumes in the shed.

Normally I find surprises when the paint dries when I do it outside, it is just at the door there, I had to close it as I have quite a bit of tools in there I dont want knocked off.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4175/s6300270xs5.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s6300270xs5.jpg)

looks more black than the picture is making out, its looks like it has blotches because of the flash, but it only needs some touchups here and there.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3316/s6300271hm9.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s6300271hm9.jpg)

Picture of the Y axis.

The rollers or whatever you call them are just 2x skate bearings and a domed mudguard washer on each side so the belt does not slip.

Ch4iS
20th September 2008, 03:06 PM
I've just got a question about painting, I am seeing little nicks here and there from bugger all effort on the dry paint. Is this due to a too thin a layer or should I be adding a clear coat or something to make it harder?


Just did a light sand and added almost 3 cans of paint. about 1 litre of paint (350g a can)

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/479/s6300278ll2.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s6300278ll2.jpg)http://img502.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)


Would it be best to give it a light sand then a clear coat?

rodm
20th September 2008, 06:32 PM
Hi Chris
It is the type of paint that causes this. It is normally slow drying enamel with accellerators to speed up the drying process. It makes the surface brittle and easy to chip.
By the way the contents might say 350g but a lot of that is thinners in the mix which is lost to evaporation when used.
I usually assemble the machine then strip it and then paint but there are usally a few nicks on re-assembly. Touch them up or just forget it and you won't notice after a while.

Ch4iS
20th September 2008, 07:10 PM
Hi Chris
It is the type of paint that causes this. It is normally slow drying enamel with accellerators to speed up the drying process. It makes the surface brittle and easy to chip.
By the way the contents might say 350g but a lot of that is thinners in the mix which is lost to evaporation when used.
I usually assemble the machine then strip it and then paint but there are usally a few nicks on re-assembly. Touch them up or just forget it and you won't notice after a while.

Yea. I'll leave it for now and will reassemble what I can tommorow.

Ch4iS
21st September 2008, 03:33 PM
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5120/s6300282hf0.th.jpg (http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s6300282hf0.jpg)http://img295.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1632/s6300279fu8.th.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s6300279fu8.jpg)http://img228.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

I have to get some alu bar for the top (1.6mm) otherwise it will ruin the paint job.

twistedfuse
21st September 2008, 03:52 PM
That machine is looking good. keep it up.

Ch4iS
21st September 2008, 06:19 PM
That machine is looking good. keep it up.


Just hoping everything is level, I can measure but I wont know till I start cutting.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7271/s6300285qn2.th.jpg (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s6300285qn2.jpg)http://img81.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

On to the cable carrier. Just got some Alu channel from bunnings some time ago and this is what I came up with, I think I saw it ages ago for homemade carriers but cant remember where I saw it. Its just a bit of alu with a bolt, 2 washers and a nylock nut, im not sure how it will perform but it should be ok for the machine I am using it on.

I'll probbaly be going with the smaller version.

crocky
21st September 2008, 10:12 PM
They look very good :)

Do a search on cnczone, there have been quite a few there.

Ch4iS
25th September 2008, 05:15 PM
A couple of current pics. I love seeing pictures so I hope everyone does also :D

some parts I made early in the build so they do not look pretty ie. belt guide for the big bearing

rodm
25th September 2008, 08:39 PM
Hi Chris,
There is a lot of work in your machine - very neat workmanship. :2tsup:
Not long to go now.

Ch4iS
30th September 2008, 04:44 PM
Hmm, not sure if a problem or not but my gantry has a difference of ~0.5mm in height from one side to the other would it be a problem? (Start with a 1.05 gap and end with around 1.6mm gap I determined this by the sizes of alu I could fit under it)

There are a number of things it could be, but I can easily fix it by putting something under the aluminium slides for the X axis (I planned ahead but I was expecting more of a difference).

Now I cannot mount the Z axis till I get the height right otherwise it will be on a 2 degree angle or something like that if I fix it up later.

Too small to worry about?



Attached a image of the mount I made, after working with aluminium and steel I see how easy it is to work with wood again :).

appiwood
30th September 2008, 05:34 PM
Hello Blueray


I might as well jump in first, I think the angle is " about ".05730 degrees, given that your Y axis looks to be about 500mm wide, or about 1mm in 1000mm, 8-)

What you can do is when you have finished the machine to get the bed " level " is to run your router along the bed from end to end and side to side,if you cut 1mm off, on one side it will be .5mm and will taper to 1mm on the other side, yours is a fairly common problem and is easily solved.

Your build looks good to BTW.

Ed

rodm
30th September 2008, 06:16 PM
Hi Chris
I notice that you do not have diagonal bracing in your frame so just to make sure your base is solid stick a plate or bit of MDF under one leg and measure again. If you get a different reading then stop here. The base needs to be rock solid before you start to adjust your machine. A simple solution would be attach diagonals or to fill in the sides of your base frame to make it a cabinet.

Once you are sure the base is right then get yourself a dial gauge (less $20 on ebay) and attach it to Z axis and start measuring points on your table. At least each corner and in the centre of travel. This will give you a better picture of what is happening. Shim your axes or adjust through the bolt holes until you get it within 10 thou. Final adjstment can be done by shimming the table itself once you shake your machine down.

I am not a fan of planning the table surface as all you are doing is replicating the inaccuracies of the machine onto the table - eg a twist in the machine will produce a twist in the table. The other issue is you probably will not get to the edges of your table with a cutter so you end up with a ridge around your cutting envelope.

In an MDF machine becasue of their construction there is little option other than to plane the table surface. Your design IMHO can and should be made as accurate as possible. As Ed says if you are going to plane the table then do it in both directions otherwise you end up with little steps in the table top.

By the way I think you have done well to have a starting point of 0.5mm variation.

Greolt
30th September 2008, 06:19 PM
I am going to agree with Ed here. :)

Yes in the finished machine it is critical that the bed is true to the axis but there is many ways to get there.

If it is a simple matter to adjust the axis, then do that.

Most of us use a sacrificial sheet of MDF on the bed which gets cut up and replaced every now and then.

Simple matter to skim cut the bed to be true. That is what I do on my machine.

If the bed was going to be aluminium then a system like Rod uses comes into its own but MDF, just true it with the router.

Greg

WOOPS: Rod posted while I typed. :)

rodm
30th September 2008, 06:34 PM
Chirs,
I should have had a looked at your photos before shooting my mouth off. :-
Your Y axis is welded and it does not look like you have any adjstment unless you do as you say and shim under the aluminum the bearing runs on - is that right??
A 0.5mm shim that long might be a problem.
As long as the variation is the same front and back on your machine (means no twisting) then go with shimming the table down that side.

No Greg I was posting again while you were posting. :D

Ch4iS
30th September 2008, 07:24 PM
OK, got a scrap piece of 1.05mm alu and 1.6mm alu, theres my .55mm difference.

I got it down to I would estimate .1mm MAX difference. I do not mind wrecking the top I had planned to get some 8mm MDF from bunnings its about $9 for a 2400x1200, should be able to get 2 tables out of each sheet, with a 16mm as the base

Mounted the Z axis.

Lowered the Z axis and the router will pass over the MDF with just slight scratches on one side, but i can easily move it, it is also on a slight angle as I could not get some aluminium from bunnings to fix that issue but I did use scrap before and it fixed it just fine so it had a 90 degree angle with the table.

BTW Rod just 12mm box for diagonal bracing? I have some left over from failed prototype. The Table was made up by a local steel mob as at the time I did not have a welder nor know how to weld. Being a small table I didnt think it would need bracing. If so where do I weld it? half way down the table? or where the other braces on the bottom are? Or by turning it into a cabinet do you mean cut a piece of MDF the correct size and force it in the bottom to force a rectangle?


My dad mentioned counter weights, has anyone ever used these, any ideas on what to use? dad said lead but duno where to get it unless I start melting pools of solder, or melt a bunch of sinkers. Im looking at atleast 2kg. Yes I know lead poisoning.

More Pics.

rodm
30th September 2008, 08:51 PM
Hi Chris,
The reason I mentioned bracing is that concrete floors are never as flat as you expect your table. If you move the table from it's current position to a few feet away and it settles to this new position you could well have a twisting problem. As I said try putting say a 1mm piece of scrap under one leg and see if it rocks. If it doesn't then it has twisted into the new position and you will have to brace the frame - if it does rock then it may be stiff enough.

12mm tube will be fine for bracing and try to get it as long as you can on the diagonal - obviously you will be limited to the design of the frame as to where you fix it. Bolting it on will be fine and probably preferred so you don't distort anything that is welded together now.

An alternative would be to fix tabs on the inside edge of the frame and then cut and fit MDF panels inside the tube and fix to the tabs - if you want you could fix a full length of angle all the way around instead of tabs. I am referring to the sides as well as the bottom shelf. Do not force the MDF in or you might pull it out of square.

I don't think you will need a counterweight. For your information I have seen buckets full of scrap steel then filled with concrete as a counterweights.

appiwood
30th September 2008, 08:52 PM
Hello Blueray


One other way you could brace the table is to rely on the strength of the MDF, welded steel would most likely be better but if builders can use 6mm masonite to brace timber frames then your router should be a doddle.

Before you go melting sinkers why not try and see how much force your Z system is applying, I think you might be surprised how much force is generated, I have seen one of my machines ( NEMA 23 motors, ACME screw ) cut into a high tensile 10mm bolt and the bolt came off worse than the carbide cutter,

I have attached a sign I did today, engraving tip, 35K RPM, spindle and WD40 ( slightly out of focus ).

If you are still worried about weight some seem to have luck with gas struts, just remember the heavier you make the any part of yout machine the more inertia needs to be overcome.

Ed

Ch4iS
30th September 2008, 09:19 PM
I'll give it a go without couterweights and see how it runs.

Worst case I can see is the bearings diging into the aluminium my main concern, or the aluminium box (1.6mm, wanted thicker but its all I could find) bends right out of shape.

I was thinking about taking the mount off the Z axis and using a belt and pulley method to drive the Z axis, K2 cnc didnt give me much to work with in terms of the mounting part of the acme leadscrew. It will remove some of the weight from the edge and counter some of it.

Hopefully I can get some motors attached tommorow and give it a little run with semi auto cnc'in, might just leave the Z axis motor off for now.

rodm
30th September 2008, 10:18 PM
Hi Chris
Do not start doubting yourself now. Your Z axis will drive easily with a Nema23 motor - I am going to run the setup in the photo below. That is 12kg sitting there and probably around 9kg in the slide. The Nema23 motor will drive it easy.
There is a big mechanical advantage in the ballscrew (effectively a lever) so unless you way over those weights then try it first before changing anything.
Counterweights on X and Y will be of benefit in one direction only and a counterweoght on Z will just get in the way.

Ed,
Nice engraving on the ally. :2tsup:

Ch4iS
30th September 2008, 11:54 PM
Na, I know the Z axis wont have a problem, just the thought of belts and pulleys to shift some of the weight around, the ratio would remain 1:1.

Ive got all the parts here already as ive planned for my next build :D

The idea is to use this one to build a bigger one.

rodm
1st October 2008, 12:12 AM
Your X axis has a large pulley so I assume you have a mechanical advantage on that axis. Y is possibly the axis you are worried about but you haven't got a motor mounted on any of the photos so hard to tell there. I imagine you could match a large and small pulley on an idler shaft and achieve a mechanical advantage if you had to.

An interesting thing about stepper motors are that they have their greatest torque at standstill. So low down revs are high torque and the power band drops off the faster they move. On a Xylotex board about 300 RPM is about all the useful speed/torque you will get.

High gearing should not be a huge problem in getting the machine running. The disadvatage of high gearing is that you loose resolution and your steppers will not reach their potential speed.

I would give it a run without modifying anything at this stage just to see what you have got.

Ch4iS
1st October 2008, 01:08 AM
Spot on with the Y axis, no gear down but I was going to see how it performed. I think 17 turns did the whole 70cm, where the X axis is something like 150 turns for the whole 120cm I think, I havnt played with them since I stuffed up one of the computers (now I have 3 to choose from)

Will see tommorow, ill add some pics of the motor mounted also.


If the Y axis is ever a problem I can just weld some more steel and easily give it something like 3:1 ratio. If the X axis is too slow I will just change the pulleys also.

rodm
1st October 2008, 01:16 AM
Then your X is equivalent to about an 8mm pitch screw and the Y is 41 mm pitch. I would halve or third the Y axis but see how it runs first. It is going to be very quick on Y axis. :)

Ch4iS
2nd October 2008, 12:22 AM
Hooked the router up and just moved it around manually

The 2 Flute end mill Bits I got which I was told to get just make a mess of the MDF, what type am I spose to be using?


am I spose to be using a bit like this?

http://media.toolbarn.com/images/amana/454xx.jpg

I was told to buy the 2 Flute End Mill bits ages ago, like below.

http://deltatool.net/resources/2flute/2fendmills.jpg

Did I stuff up and buy the wrong one or is there something I am not doing right.



Still no alu from bunnings as they are still rearranging their ????.

rodm
2nd October 2008, 12:58 AM
Hi Chris,
I use both types on MDF. Sounds a bit like your router was not on high enough speed or maybe travelling too fast over the MDF.
Show us a picture and tell how you did the cut.

Ch4iS
2nd October 2008, 01:05 AM
Ozito full speed (number 7 I think it is)

I'll get some pics tommorow.

Ch4iS
3rd October 2008, 07:15 PM
Pics attached.

Do you know anyone who sells the Nema 23 gear boxes? I have seen them with drives but I dont know anyone who sells them seperately. This would be the best solution in my opinion for the Y axis.

The Big bit was kinda cleaned up with the bit that is on the router, it was a flush bit and I just removed the bearing to have a play around with it.

That bit of MDF that is seperate was cut with the bit that is removed from the router, about 6 passes.

snowyskiesau
3rd October 2008, 07:33 PM
Pics attached.

Do you know anyone who sells the Nema 23 gear boxes? I have seen them with drives but I dont know anyone who sells them seperately.

You could try MS-Motor (http://www.ms-motor.com/GearStepperMotor.htm). They sell a stepper with gearbox attached but I'm sure they would sell just the gearbox. Although if the price they've quoted me for just motors, you could afford to buy the motor/gearbox and throw the motors away :)

crocky
3rd October 2008, 08:17 PM
That is a pretty mean cut!

Ch4iS
3rd October 2008, 08:29 PM
You could try MS-Motor (http://www.ms-motor.com/GearStepperMotor.htm). They sell a stepper with gearbox attached but I'm sure they would sell just the gearbox. Although if the price they've quoted me for just motors, you could afford to buy the motor/gearbox and throw the motors away :)


Thanks :) sent them a email ill see what they say.

I think this is where I saw the gearbox first, I have seen some on ebay but they are like 12:1 15:1 ratios which are too much.


That is a pretty mean cut!

I was a bit shocked also, maby it was my manual cutting. I never forced it much.

rodm
3rd October 2008, 10:26 PM
Hi Chris
It is a planetary gearhead you are after. If you have a lathe or access to one then just make an idler shaft and mount between your motor and drive then fiddle with different pulleys.

Looks like you have a blunt router bit there. The burning is probably caused by too slow a feed but if this is the case then going by the surface finish you have a super blunt bit. I would be disappointed as well. The furry bits at the top is typical of an upcut router bit and these should sand off with a light touch. It is the edge finish that worries me.and am I seeing more than is there - hard to tell from the photo.

Ch4iS
5th October 2008, 03:04 PM
MS Motor said I could not install the gear box that they supply.


I got a bit impatient and cut and tacked some steel for the pulleys, kinda distorted the bearings but it freely spins so im not worried as its only a temporary fix till I get some proper bearings.

It was either to use a 30t or a 60t pulley and the 60t was a bit big so ill see how the 30t goes.

What ratio is that? I thought it was 2:1 (ie. 30t in 15t out) but it doesnt seem right as I would think 15t - 30t - 15t would be 2:1



Rod i dont have a lathe, would love one.

rodm
5th October 2008, 04:40 PM
15 - 30 is 2:1 - 15 on motor
15 - 30/15 - 30 is 4:1 - double pulley in idler

and
15 - 30/30 -15 is 1:1

Send you a PM.

Ch4iS
5th October 2008, 08:22 PM
Some more pics.

Y axis should have a little more grunt.


Should be 2:1 ratio but im just confused.

Rod I originally came up with 1.5:1 ratio but it requires 3 turns of the motor (30teeth) and that in turn gives the 15t pulley 1 rotatio so im sure its just 2:1 but then again if the motor is 15t then it would be 2:1 so the ratio is somewhere in that region.


Around tuesday I should have the aluminium from bunnings, the new cutting bits, and after that all that is needed is to hook up the wiring, connect some limit switches (do you need limit switches?) and then adjust the tension of the belts on the X axis to be the correct length on each side as its slightly off.

Persil
7th October 2008, 11:10 AM
Blueray
I am new to this forum and I was a electronic eng. working in computer controlled machinery and robots in Europe. This is very impressive work and I admire such a job.
I have only one question what type of software will control the equipment. If you intend to write such a package yourself you have a bigger job ahead of you.
Sorry guy's I don't like to hijack a posting but I have seen people throwing the towel when approaching the software side.
Regards
Persil

Ch4iS
8th October 2008, 07:38 AM
Blueray
I am new to this forum and I was a electronic eng. working in computer controlled machinery and robots in Europe. This is very impressive work and I admire such a job.
I have only one question what type of software will control the equipment. If you intend to write such a package yourself you have a bigger job ahead of you.
Sorry guy's I don't like to hijack a posting but I have seen people throwing the towel when approaching the software side.
Regards
Persil


The software side is all avaliable.

Mach 3 and Cut 2D was recomended to myself, I wouldnt have started in the first place if it required a custom software package.

Ch4iS
9th October 2008, 04:49 PM
Just powered up the Y axis, getting over 35 turns so about a 2:1 ratio, It has quite a bit of grunt I was pushing against the Y axis (not too much as I didnt want anything to snap in 2 on me) It moves at a much better speed now.

Still awaiting router bits, should be in friday then I can start cutting.


I have gotten the difference to around .2mm (possible .1 but its just my estimate Its hard to tell as I am estimating from a shadow.) over the whole table the guys who welded up the table did a good job, so I will do as Greolt suggested and just plane a cheap sheet of MDF as with the design its a bit impossible to get 100% accuracy.

Now im just hoping the Z axis does not twist too much, so far it looks fine but I wont know till I start cutting. If it does ive got a plan to weld a higher slide so its cannot twist (was thinking about welding another 40x40 box on top of the current one which would make twisting impossible.)

Greolt
9th October 2008, 05:05 PM
Pictures are good. Video is better. :U

Greg

Ch4iS
9th October 2008, 09:13 PM
Pictures are good. Video is better. :U

Greg

Will do when its actually cutting something :), should be tommorow if the router bits come in.

Ch4iS
10th October 2008, 07:37 PM
First time I power up the X axis since completing the Y and Z I do the stupid thing of not powering the router. I heard a tooth jump and it bent the Z axis the worst way possible just before clicking the emergency stop.

But other than that, see the pics. Sorry no Vid yet, gota learn how to use Cut 2D first as I was just moving the axis's semi-manually.


Got the Bits from sawandbits.com for $5.50 each, also grabbed some saw blades well worth it, duno about the router bits but I know the saw blades are expencive. Set me back ~$70 for 3x alu Blades, 3x Mild Steel blades, 5 router bits and a bunch of jigsaw blades.

Grabbed 2x 6.4 and 3x 3.2


From what I can see the router can easily cut the 16mm MDF in 2 passes, I wouldnt do it in 1 pass as the router isnt all that powerful.

rodm
11th October 2008, 04:02 AM
Nice haul. :2tsup:

Another of the things you will learn is feeds and speeds and each of us do it a different way. Some prefer deep cuts and slow speeds while others go shallow feeds and faster speeds. There is no right and wrong way and the best way is determined by the resultant cut. Just don't go hogging deep into aluminum or you will have problems.

There are three factors you need to consider in feeds and speeds.

There is the rate of cut determined by your software - eg 600mm/min. If you are using Mach3 this can be adjusted on the fly.

The speed of your router - can be adjusted on the fly. As a general rule smaller bits require more speed and larger bits less speed. The surface finish and sound of the cutter while running will give you the clues to the right router speed.

The depth of each cut is determind by your software and cannot be adjusted on the fly. Be carefull not to set too deep a cut until you are sure the machine and router can handle it for the type of material you are cutting.

Hope that helps a little.

Ch4iS
11th October 2008, 04:40 PM
Rod can you use the Trial of Cut2D?

Ive been trying to work it out so far ive got the basics because of the video tutorial but I cannot save anything to import into Lazy CAM.


Do I need to buy Cut2D before I can actually use it?

rodm
11th October 2008, 05:27 PM
I haven't used Cut2D but from memory VcarvePro trial did the same. You can use it but not save anything. I think they had a sample file that you could use to test your machine but that was it.

appiwood
11th October 2008, 10:21 PM
Hello Blueray / Rod

From memory the Vectric products don't let you save any files you work on, not sure if you can even import them.

I went the whole hog last Christmas and bought the three, PhotoVcarve, Cut3d and Vcarvepro, up until then I had used Mach2 to generate the tap file, the three are really easy to use, for example, I have just finished a welding table and needed to move it from under a carport into the shed, couldn't use a engine hoist so used autocad to draw a " wheel " with a hole for the hub, imported ( why isn't that iNported ? ) it to VcarvePro, and cut six of them from 25mm MDF with a 10mm cutter in 70seconds each, 9mm cut, 2000mm / min, worked easily and well. I haven't used photoVcarve yet but have done some 3d machining using cut3d, I'm not a machinist by trade but the programs were easy to use.

If you only buy one, Id'e get the VcarvePro, it will import dxf's, if you would like me to generate a tap file for you PM me and we can arrange it.

Ed

appiwood
12th October 2008, 11:34 AM
Hello Boys ( any girls here yet??? )

I have had a couple of requests for a tap file, I will knock something up today and post later, Blueray has asked for a star of about 60mm in size, if no objections I'll do that, but I need to know several parameters first, what sort of depth material? if I don't here by say 5:00pm EDST I'll assume 10mm think, 6mm cutter with two passes of 5mm cut and a speed of 2000mm / min'.

Ed

Ch4iS
12th October 2008, 12:31 PM
I haven't used Cut2D but from memory VcarvePro trial did the same. You can use it but not save anything. I think they had a sample file that you could use to test your machine but that was it.


Its stupid its not even a trial, it would have been better with a 30 day no restriction use. I wouldnt mind paying it if I could see what it can do on the machine.

I have asked Ed to create a tap file so I can give it a run. BTW thanks for doing that Ed.


( any girls here yet??? )

Doubt it.

appiwood
12th October 2008, 04:47 PM
Hello Blueray

Here are three files you are welcome to use, first is three five point stars, bit bigger than you asked for, they are each about 100mm, ( well they fit in a 100mm circle ), so you will need some 16mm thick board about 350mm long, feeds ( F ) is 2000mm / min if to fast / slow you can change using the editor in Mach 2/3, the first star is cut outside the line, and has two tabs, the next is inside the line, no tabs, the third is on the line, maybe 4 tabs or might be none.

The next two files are a small sign for you, both about 100mm high by 350mm long, the depth of cut will be about 5mm, both the same but different, you'll see when you run them.

All files are for a 6mm cutter, won't be a problem if you go bigger / smaller for the first file but don't change if possible for the other two.

I have also attached the VcarvePro file, you may be able to open it as well - not sure.

Good luck, if you have any questions / problems email me.

Ed

appiwood
12th October 2008, 04:56 PM
Hello Blueray

Don't know what happened to 2,3 or 4, will try again, also change the txt to tap to run in mach.

The problem was / is file size, change the extension to the LAST THREE LETTERS BEFORE the dot and all will be well.

Ed

Ch4iS
12th October 2008, 05:07 PM
Ok, Thanks.

I'll do them and post up some videos if they work out fine.

Ch4iS
12th October 2008, 08:48 PM
OK, was setting up the steps per unit and my HDD dies, put a new HDD in and reinstalled everything, looks good so far I think, I load the code check all the settings ect. disconnect the Z axis and raise it so I can do a run with just X and Y.

It keeps trying to go off the table. ie. The image in the mind of the software is huge. I know I did something wrong.

The 2nd file I loaded it can fit the design on the table but again it goes slow as. it says around 150 units/sec I think it was when the feedrate is set at 2400 and a little warning on the bottom about it being too fast for belts and pulleys


Ok I am sure I have made a mistake when setting up the motors but im not sure where,

I have a thought that its the acceleration and velocity but what should I be setting these to? But this does not address the problem of size.

I was playing around with the steps and velocity and got upto 720 unit/sec (I think its sec or its min)


PS: motors sound like ????.

appiwood
12th October 2008, 10:23 PM
Hello Blueray

Is this for the machine that is belt drive??
So has it been working under jogging keys ( which Mach are you using )
If it has do you get the right movement for what is displayed on the sceen in Mach, ie, if you move the machine 200mm does the axis move display increase / decrease by 200mm?

I think from memory my belt drive machine the acceleration rates are <50, I'll check tomorrow.

Ed

Ch4iS
12th October 2008, 11:03 PM
Hello Blueray

Is this for the machine that is belt drive??
So has it been working under jogging keys ( which Mach are you using )
If it has do you get the right movement for what is displayed on the sceen in Mach, ie, if you move the machine 200mm does the axis move display increase / decrease by 200mm?

I think from memory my belt drive machine the acceleration rates are <50, I'll check tomorrow.

Ed


Never got jogging to work as I dont know how to get it working, but I can move the axis's by defining the X and Y axis ratio to steps in the settings tab.

appiwood
13th October 2008, 06:03 AM
Hello Blueray

Seems we have a little work to do, you need to have all the " stuff " working before you try to use the machine, or grief will follow, learnt from experience.

Are you using mach2 or 3?
1/4, 1/2 full step or other?
Mechanical setup, how many turns of your stepper motor to go 1mm, or how far do you go on ONE turn?
You can fiddle around with the spped and accel rates to get it purring, judging from your photos it liikes like a well built machine and it should go very well, this is always the worst bit as it seems like with all the effort you put in it should just work, Mach being so versitile ( works on so many machines ) needs to be set up to work on yours.

Ed

crocky
13th October 2008, 08:30 AM
Hi there,

This link will take you to the mach 3 setup and running video's http://www.machsupport.com/videos/ and would be the first place I would call for help and it will go into the installing and setup in the first video :)

Ch4iS
13th October 2008, 09:47 AM
Mach 3

Full Step I think I never changed the Xyoltex settings.

Ed, I did think it was all setup and right but with things so large I did something wrong :(



Bob I will watch the video but last time I just read the PDF on how to set it up.


It has to do with calculating the ratios differently as I must have done it wrong. I will have half the day today to tinker with it.

crocky
13th October 2008, 11:13 AM
Mach 3

Full Step I think I never changed the Xyoltex settings.

Ed, I did think it was all setup and right but with things so large I did something wrong :(

Xylotex is 1/8 step?

rodm
13th October 2008, 11:37 AM
1/8 microstep is correct Bob.
There is a quick easy way to check steps. Go to the "Settings" screen in Mach3 and just above the reset button is "Set Steps per Unit". Follow the prompts and it is fixed.

rodm
13th October 2008, 11:41 AM
Forgot to say make sure your Native units is set to mm (if that is your choice). Default is imperial. Menu is Config then Select native Units

Ch4iS
13th October 2008, 01:53 PM
Forgot to say make sure your Native units is set to mm (if that is your choice). Default is imperial. Menu is Config then Select native Units


It must have been set to inches when I reinstalled everything.

I just redid it (Program was on MM already) but it now does the proper size. Must have had inches when I configured it.


http://www.ausxmods.com.au/S6300355.AVI (Will be finished in 15 minutes)

Will be the link to the video, look at the feed rate and the speed it runs at

Velocity = 240 (same on both X and Y)

Is this right? I would think the default settings (Velocity = 120) would be more than enough.

Any idea what is slowing it down? BTW is the motor sounds normal?

Ch4iS
13th October 2008, 02:58 PM
Gave it some velocity and acceleration and it seems to be running at a nice pace now.

But I just wanted to know are there any safe levels for these motors? or will it just miss steps ect when its running too fast.

Ch4iS
13th October 2008, 03:23 PM
Pics

Z axis not operational as I havnt finished the wiring yet. (ie. I can run 2 axis's at once.)


My pretty star :D

crocky
13th October 2008, 03:45 PM
Looks fairly good now :)

How big is a 50mm square and a 50mm circle? Bigger or smaller or exactly the correct size?

Then you will know if you have things set correctly :)

You will know when you are missing steps....

appiwood
13th October 2008, 03:49 PM
Hello Blueray

Nice star!!! 8-).

Glad you have got it working, good feeling???

As far as speeds go, you won't have enough power in the router to cut and move without stalling the router or tearing your work, unless you have really shallow cuts, as others have said, what sounds right ( for the router ) generally is.

For rapids yes speed is good but if you lose steps in a rapid move what good will that do if the rapid is between cuts, is it a problem if it takes 45 seconds to go from one end of your table instead of 30?? still quicker overall than you can do by hand.

Onto the Z now???

Ed

rodm
13th October 2008, 03:57 PM
Any signs of missed steps then reduce the acceleration/velocity. You will find it will just make wierd noises and lock up when you have exceeeded the max of the motor.

You can do a repeatabilty test where you get it to travel on all axes a certain distance then return it to zero. Do this say 20 times and then check if you axes are at the starting point.

Set you machine with Z axis on the table and mark the point where it is resting. Set all your DRO's to zero.
A simple file would be

G0X200Y200Z100
G0X0Y0Z0
Note it is G Zero.
The Z direction is upwards so it is not going to dive into your table unless it starts missing steps.
Either keep running this as a single block of code or copy this block another nineteen (or whatever) times done the page and run it.
If at the end of it your machine is still in the same zero location you are OK.


Geeze you have to be quick typing on this thread - by the time I reply there are heaps of posts in between. :-)
I recommend you get all axes working before you go too far. Z not being powered will have little resistance and could unwind during a cut.

appiwood
13th October 2008, 04:22 PM
Hello Blueray

FYI looking at the star resting on two points, the length from the " top " to either of the two points should be 95.1057mm, if you have used the outside of the line file it should be close to that.

Ed

rodm
13th October 2008, 04:35 PM
Hi Ed,
You have to laugh at us. In a woodwork forum and we are quoting 4 decimal places :D
It's all relative to us but must seem a bit strange to non cnc'ers on this forum. We are a wierd lot with verniers instead of folding rule in our pocket.

Ch4iS
13th October 2008, 05:10 PM
yea its a good feeling to get it going.

I had the X axis flying before but had my finger on the stop button and as soon as it whined I stopped it. Almost made it to 2000 mm/min, of course it could never cut at these speeds (maby shallow cuts)

Shouldnt be long now till its complete, limit switches go on tommorow (I loose 3cm on the Y axis :( as I can only put them in one spot

appiwood
13th October 2008, 06:33 PM
Hello Rod

I just assumed that everyone can measure to four dec' places ( I can't either ) don't worry though, I found out the hard way that even pressing a bearing into a 6 thou undersize hole isn't good, I had to buy a mic as the calipers just wouldn't go to 4 places.

Anyway, glad you got a laugh.

Ed

Ch4iS
15th October 2008, 07:19 PM
Installed the limit switches. Now gota work out the wiring.

Worked out my table length also now.

Because of the bad design. I have a table of 1280x760 and a min cutting area of 900x520.


But its big enough for my next machine which I want to build from it, I would have loved a 1 metre X axis but its only the first.


No pics as my dad took off with the camera I wont have any more pics till the weekend.

rodm
15th October 2008, 08:20 PM
Hi Chirs,
Unless you build a 2400 by 1200 travel machine they are always too small for all jobs. You have a good size cutting envelope so I would not be worried.
Yes we need some pictures. :)

Ch4iS
25th October 2008, 06:07 PM
Just playing with the cnc router I am starting on a prototype of MDF for a long axis machine (2500,1400) to cut a full sheet 2400,1200

I am having problems getting a accurate setting for the motor movement.


Just cut a 240 x 100 design, it is about .5mm short on the top and 1 mm on the width.


Whats a accurate way to measure it? (steps per unit)

rodm
25th October 2008, 07:53 PM
Hi Chris,
Assuming you are using Mach3 try this.
Go to Settings
Above the Rest button is Axis Calibration / Set steps per Unit
Select the axis
Type in your distance etc, etc In other words just follow the prompts. It will reset your steps for that axis based on your results.
In the crudest form use a ruler to measure the distance and if you want better accuracy use a vernier gauge. Let the machine push the jaws along if you use a vernier.
Hope that helps.

Ch4iS
25th October 2008, 10:21 PM
Hi Chris,
Assuming you are using Mach3 try this.
Go to Settings
Above the Rest button is Axis Calibration / Set steps per Unit
Select the axis
Type in your distance etc, etc In other words just follow the prompts. It will reset your steps for that axis based on your results.
In the crudest form use a ruler to measure the distance and if you want better accuracy use a vernier gauge. Let the machine push the jaws along if you use a vernier.
Hope that helps.

Yea thats what ive been doing, ill try it again with the digital caliper as a push and not a pull.

rodm
26th October 2008, 01:06 AM
Hi Chris,
Ok if you have been there then is it possible you are missing steps?

Ch4iS
26th October 2008, 01:30 AM
Hi Chris,
Ok if you have been there then is it possible you are missing steps?

The latest one wasnt cut any faster than 250mm/min so I dont think that is the case.

I'll measure it up tommorow if I can get some time to do so.

Thing is also, the 8mm holes are alightly bigger for the bolt (might be the bolt) but then the design is a touch smaller.

niall
26th October 2008, 10:15 AM
[QUOTE=blue^ray;816124]Hmm, not sure if a problem or not but my gantry has a difference of ~0.5mm in height from one side to the other would it be a problem? (Start with a 1.05 gap and end with around 1.6mm gap I determined this by the sizes of alu I could fit under it)

There are a number of things it could be, but I can easily fix it by putting something under the aluminium slides for the X axis (I planned ahead but I was expecting more of a difference).

Now I cannot mount the Z axis till I get the height right otherwise it will be on a 2 degree angle or something like that if I fix it up later.

Too small to worry about?
No its no to small. What you will find is if you do a trench cut or engraving you will find that the cut will be deeper on one side of the table or Y axis to the other...