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hughie
13th October 2008, 12:37 PM
Found this on my wanderings, anybody use or know about these tools :?

http://www.hannestool.com/

Gil Jones
13th October 2008, 02:20 PM
Have never used the advertised turning tools or handles, but JoHannes Michelsen turns some very nice wooden hats.
http://carverscompanion.com/Ezine/Vol10Issue5/KMenendez/KMenendez.html

rsser
13th October 2008, 03:40 PM
Nope.

You'd know this better than me Hughie - high Vanadium content is sposed to both give you a good edge (like high carbon steel) as well as durability.

hughie
14th October 2008, 09:24 AM
Ern,

I was curious as to how good they might be. Vanadium along with some sort of Cryo treatment. If you look around on the net there comments for an against the Cryo treatment of steel.

What most toolmakers dont say is what grade of steel there using, fear of copying I guess. But then the average Turner would not be up on the various types etc.

For instance with Vanadium, we have three basic grades to choose from in Oz

Vanadis 23,30 and 60 with 60 being the premium with 6.5% vanadium and 10.5 cobolt.


The art of the tool maker is in the heatreatment to a large extent as well as careful selection of the grade etc.

rsser
14th October 2008, 09:39 AM
Ern,

If you look around on the net there comments for an against the Cryo treatment of steel.

What most toolmakers dont say is what grade of steel there using, fear of copying I guess. But then the average Turner would not be up on the various types etc.

.

Yes, the only proper comparo I've seen of turning with cryo vs plain HSS the cryo showed no wear advantage. - and I take your point about us not knowing what the steel composition is. Not even the tester could get the supplier to tell him.

OGYT
15th October 2008, 01:39 PM
I've never use the Hannes tools, or seen one that I know of. But I sure do like my Thompson Bowl Gouges that are Cryogenically treated. They will hold an edge longer than my pinnacle gouge or my Crown Pro PM, especially if you hone the edge beforehand.:2tsup:
To give you a little insight as to how good they are... I have nicked my chuck jaws three times with a bowl gouge. (I know you ain't supposed to do that, but I love using that little short toolrest, and a few times I've run off the end of it.) :B
I nicked it twice with my 5/8 Crown Pro PM, and once with the Thompson 5/8". All three nicks had to be filed down, because there were pretty good burrs left by the cutting edge of the tools. Both times with the Crown, I had to grind out a chip in the cutting edge. With the Thompson, I just went back to turning... cause it didn't even chip the edge. :oo:
I couldn't even see where the edge caught the chuck.:D
If you get a chance, try one sometime.

rsser
15th October 2008, 01:51 PM
That's a helluva test routine Al!

Yeah, good reports about the Thompson tools.

FWIW I took slices off all four outside high points of a set of VM shark jaws with a plain HSS tool. Can't remember which one unfortunately.

And in the case of cryo, dunno if you saw this and apologies for duplicate posting:
I think there was a short version in More Woodturning a few months back.
http://www.morewoodturning.net/Tool%20Wear%20Testing%20by%20Jim%20Staley.pdf

OGYT
16th October 2008, 10:32 AM
Ern, Whew! I read all of that, ogled the graphs, and am in awe of the way they decided to test the cutters. I know they're scientists or at least scientifically minded, but. I think it's sort of like this global warming phenomena. All hyped up, but doesn't make much sense to the common man. :)
All in all. I know they know what they're talking about. But I trust my tests more than theirs. I tested my tools on Chuck jaws and Bowls. :D
Thanks for the link. I do now understand the difference between Austenite and Martensite.

rsser
16th October 2008, 11:27 AM
Yeah, it is thorough in the best scientific sense and so a bit of a gobful for amateurs like me. And questions about controlling the variables can still be asked: how do sharpening methods affect partic. tool steel compositions? and the methods of tempering and cryo treating?

Another take-out, if I read the graphs correctly, is that the most exotic tool steels reduce the wear rate by half. Whether that makes them worth the $$ for hobby turners is moot.

I'd certainly like to halve the frequency of the sharpening eg on my Ellsworth Sig gouge cos setup is a pain. On the other hand, the cost of buying one out of exotic tool steel would presumably be much greater; and I don't have to price my shed time (prob. just as well!).

hughie
16th October 2008, 11:46 AM
[


Another take-out, if I read the graphs correctly, is that the most exotic tool steels reduce the wear rate by half. Whether that makes them worth the $$ for hobby turners is moot.


Thats a very good point Ern. Theres some real exotic steel out there but its very pricey.

I am looking at some at the moment M42 and trying to get the price down so it I can have a go at making some thing out of it. Plus it often takes some sophisticated heat treating to boot to get it right.

Dave Peebles
16th October 2008, 03:18 PM
Hi Hughie,

One thing that should be mentioned is that Doug Thompson does indeed make the steel for JoHannes turning tools.

I have several of Doug's tools, and believe the wear is comparable or better than my old Glaser tools. It does seem to hold a fine edge for a good long time. But Doug is a friend of mine, so please take this with a grain of salt. :)

I cetainly do not understand all the details about the metal stuff, but is sure is my go to gouge these days.

Turning is always more fun than sharpening. :)

Best wishes,
Dave

rsser
16th October 2008, 03:51 PM
Actually Dave his website says he gets his steel from Crucible.

Dave Peebles
17th October 2008, 02:14 AM
Hello Ern,

Yes, that is where the steel comes from, but Doug makes them up for him.

If you check out this youtube video he talks about it at around the 2:58 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFtNiZTp_AI

He also has some awesome handles. I got a chance to play with one for a bit at the AAW Symposium.

Best wishes,
Dave

hughie
17th October 2008, 11:34 AM
Hi Dave,


I have several of Doug's tools, and believe the wear is comparable or better than my old Glaser tools. It does seem to hold a fine edge for a good long time. But Doug is a friend of mine, so please take this with a grain of salt. :)


This is the sort of thing I was after in posting this, somebodies first hand experience, thanks :2tsup:



Turning is always more fun than sharpening. :)

Sharpening ....sigh.... a necessary evil in the scheme of things.

Skew ChiDAMN!!
17th October 2008, 03:14 PM
Just out of curiosity, how do the cryo-treated tools compare to good HSS - let's say the equivalent P&N tools - for price?


Sharpening ....sigh.... a necessary evil in the scheme of things.

You mean bevel-rubbing practice? :innocent:

rsser
17th October 2008, 03:27 PM
Skew, last I looked on o/s sites the HT Kryo (yeah, sp!) were about 20% more than std HT, which as you know are not cheap anyway.

Skew ChiDAMN!!
17th October 2008, 03:36 PM
Thanks, Ern.

I think I'll add 'em to my "to-be-casually-left-lying-around-at-Xmas" list, rather than the higher priority "must-have-now" list. :D

rsser
17th October 2008, 03:51 PM
Heh heh.

.. FWIW I think I'll get a Thompson to have a play. Grind the thing straight across kinda cos I'm sick of setting up the fingernail jig each time.

INVENTOR
19th October 2008, 01:28 PM
Hi guys, I couldn't help but respond about Thompson tools. I bought some many months ago. Before the $A went south.
After using Glaser tools for many years ( unavailable now) the Thompson tools are the 'next' best thing'. Considering the steel is the same as the 2nd best that Glaser used. ( the V15 - Vanadium being the 'best)

I have found them to be far superior to normal HSS tools. Their price is heaps less than Glaser tools were.

The bowl gouge ( available in two profiles) is less of a deep 'V' than the Glaser tools.

The thing that most people seem to forget is less time at the grinder means less chance of changing the grind, means more chance of improving your techniques, being use to the tool. As it is consistant.

When I bought my tools Doug accidently sent one the wrong size. An email saw him send me the correct one, straight away. no questions, no cost and he didn't want the other one back. Can't argue with that. Just a shame we are in Oz and our dollar has dropped.

rsser
19th October 2008, 03:46 PM
Thanks for the feedback Inventor.

Do you have both the V and the U flute gouges? And both are shallower than Glaser?

btw, last I looked on o/s sites Glasers were still available but aren't made by Glaser himself anymore.

rsser
19th October 2008, 03:58 PM
Just had an email from Doug Thompson as luck would have it.

He advises that the 5/8 V gouge has a flute v. like the Ellsworth Signature gouge and can use the Ellsworth sharpening jig. Suits me as the Sorby fingernail grind jig I use can just work with the Ellsworth gouge.

Have put in an order for one. Unhandled and posted AUD 130 at current ex rates.

If it really does hold an edge much longer on rock-hard redgum etc then I'll stick with his swept back grind; otherwise grind it straight across.

Jim Staley's tests show the 10% vanadium steel to last 2x as long as M2. Not sure whether that was cryo treated though.

INVENTOR
19th October 2008, 07:56 PM
Hi Ern, I have both the 5/8 and 1/2 V grind gouges. Both are not as deep a V as the Glaser, which means there is a little more 'meat' in the bottom, but a very close shape of V which I prefer ( and one of the reasons why Glaser were so popular with professionals etc)
Doug does make a U shape, but I haven't tried them.
I find on our hardwoods ( redgum colibah burl etc) you need the best wear resistant steel you can get as you can't really take 'huge' cuts and hence the small part of the cutting edge is doing a lot of work. Also why I think the V is better, as you 'might' expose too much edge to the wood. particulaly with the larger size tools. ( the tip) I still use a swept back grind. ( great for shear scraping etc) That's my theory, for what its worth.

I also don't advocate grinding as much as some. I use a diamond 'file' and 'hone' around the front of the gouge when it goes dull, then after numerous times of doing this process, when I loose the actual hollow grind from the grinding wheel. I then go to the grinder, and use a jig to keep the same shape. Going to a grinder all the time is like a Barber taking his cut throat razer to a grind stone rather than a strop.

I just bought a slow speed grinder 1440 rpm, and have yet to use it. But I think it should be better than the usual grinders, but faster than a wet grinder. see what happens.

From what I can understand Glaser was 'bought' out but the company that took over went under? And Doug doesn't make the V15 tools, which is a shame, they are just awesome at keeping an edge. I keep mine now for 'special' as I don't think they will be available again. That said, for the price Doug asks for his tools and their quality, I think they are great.

I hope this helps Ern.

rsser
19th October 2008, 09:49 PM
Agree.

FWIW, Ellsworth's vid on his sig gouge advises sharpening, with his jig of course, on a 120 alox wheel, which he describes as dressing, and notes that a finer grit produces a finer burr which retains less dust in use and so lasts longer. He also says that on the bowl gouge it's the burr that does the work.

This grit is of course far finer than is often recommended. We've been told to go for coarser grits to reduce tool tip overheating. But of course with HSS you can blue without risk to edge temper. Interesting implications.

INVENTOR
20th October 2008, 06:29 PM
Yes, I think he is no doubt correct about using a finer grit. ( Good idea) However with our hard woods I wonder how long the bur lasts. ( different if you are turning softer wood (as often used by USA turners etc)
In my experience not terribly long, particulalry on the very small section, usually the bottom front right hand edge( looking down and along over the flute, from the handle). And because it is only this part that does most of the work, it seems silly to regrind ( dress) everytime this section gets dull. I prefer to save time ( and tool life = $) and give a few good stokes with the diamond file, making sure not to roll over the edge and generally only concentrating on the dull area.
I also have built up a few similar gouges, so I wait till they all need a grind and do them all together. When I first bought Doug's tools a 1/2 was $50US and friends and I put in an order. With a strong Aus $ they end up costing little more than buying P&N, so I bought a few. Also fearing that Doug 'could' put up his price, now that Glaser are not around.

What it does show is there has been a lot of us using bench grinders with less than 'ideal' wheels that perhaps are travelling too fast, for sharpening when we could have been doing it a better way. I am looking forward to the slow speed grinder not vibrating etc. It will be pleaseure to use. Shame they are not readily available here, like they are in the states.
I pity poor novices getting into Turning, there is so much to get 'wrong'

rsser
20th October 2008, 06:49 PM
Yeah, I give the Ellsworth Sig gouge a lick or two with a diamond hone just to keep going with min. interruption.

But I find that doesn't last as long as grind wheel dressing.

FWIW, the DVD that Ellsworth has done on his gouge suggests it should last well on hardwoods, provided the angles are got right. It's a matter of the amount of 'meat' on the flute wings.

hughie
21st October 2008, 12:26 AM
My old grinder has a finer grit wheel than is recommended. But its so old that I guess its 120. Bottom line is it will produce a very fine finish if I use little pressure. This I find handy for finishing. But as you say the edge wont last, especially with heavy cutting.

This thread has some interesting developments. :2tsup:

rsser
22nd October 2008, 07:20 AM
Just a follow-up on Glaser tools. The new owner still claims to be making them acc. to one US retailer but it's a case of believe it when you see it.

hughie
25th October 2008, 08:00 AM
Ern,

With your contacts have come across at the Uni the use of liquid nitrogen? If so, then you have the makings of a cryo set up.......food for thought :U


I think from memory.....and somewhat distant. That process goes something like this:- soak the steel for several hours at the low temps then place in a insulated container and allow it to resume ambient temp ideally about 4hrs or so.

just found this link it pretty well details the how and why of it all.

http://www.cryointegrity.com/extend.html

rsser
25th October 2008, 11:11 AM
Heh heh ... food for thought.

And find a lab that can temper too ... ;-}

Bill Blasic
26th October 2008, 12:35 AM
I'm sure that you will find that the Thompson tools are by far the best bang for the buck in todays market. I own most of the tools that Doug Thompson makes and I now use them 100% of the time. How can you beat a tool that if your not happy with it Doug will refund your money. I have also been very happy with the grind that comes with the tool. Doug has only recently raised his prices a bit even though the metal he buys has jumped very high. I have rarely if ever found a more generous person!

INVENTOR
26th October 2008, 08:41 AM
Good comments BIll, It is just a shame that Doug doesn't do a range of tools like the Glaser V15, as I believe the steel is available. When I compare my Thompson tools to the old V15, Dougs are great but not quite as good as the old Glaser.
I also have an old Glaser ( I think it was called an A11) , once again not in the same street compare to the V15 for keeping an edge, particularly with our Aussie hardwoods.
So if you ever see any old V15 Glaser tools, at a good price, buy them. Unless Doug decides to make some.
I am led to believe that the V15 could have been more brittle. A turner friend completely shattered a 5/8' V15 ( straight down the flute) :C
However I have not had any problems. That said, he regularly turns pieces that are 5" (1500mm) in dia.

rsser
26th October 2008, 08:52 AM
If you want to read up on the properties of various tool steels, see:

http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/general/generalpart1.html

Doug Thompson
26th October 2008, 08:16 PM
Hello, If you don't know me I'm a woodturner (hats) and Thompson Lathe Tools.

First I would like to say you are lucky to have the best wood in the entire world and one of the most talented woodworkers in the world, Dave Shaw outside of Cains... you should see his woodturnings and furniture.

I started to make my own personal tools from A11 after Jerry Glaser sold his business and later decided to sell the tools with no idea it would grow like it did.

Ern, your tools should be there any day, shipping to Australia is normally 10 to 14 days even though it's sent priority mail. Try the grind that's on the tool right from the package it's a standard grind that we use and very close to the Ellsworth, matter of fact the Ellsworth jig can be used to sharpen the 5/8V.

The tools won't be made from V15 due to the fact the price of this steel took an huge jump in price about 6 months ago and keeps rising every month... it has to level off sometime but hasn't yet. The cost of tools should need to be priced so everyone can afford them. I could raise the prices because Glaser is no longer producing a product but I won't... this is not my real job so the price goes up when my costs go up.

This steel will last longer than anything on the market today just because of the vanadium content (9.75%) this is what we need for woodturning, The heat treatment is a huge part of the final product including the cryogenics after the first temper which is the place it should be... not after the third temper like some tests.

The big question how long does each steel last? I have never seen a test yet that gives the answer, manufactures claims are just that claims without supporting tests to back them up. Right now the only tests are users being subjective which is good.

Well have fun turning your common exotic woods while here in Ohio we never see wood more than the common maple, oak and ash.

EDIT - I do make tools for Johannes Michelsen, John Jordan, Al Stirt and in the next few months Jimmy Clewes and Bill Grumbine... the list is growing

BTW - The shipping department is fired every month because of mistakes... oups. The big problem is I have to hire the same guy back even though he makes mistakes. LoL

Enjoy,
Doug

rsser
26th October 2008, 08:46 PM
Great to see you posting here Doug.

Yep, looking forward to the gouge; it will be the second big gouge in the kit alongside an Ellsworth Sig.

(Which grind btw, with some mods, I could reproduce on my Sorby fingernail jig as long as you settle for a 60 degree tip angle. Which is what David recommends but wouldn't be my first choice.).

And I very much appreciate your fine customer service.

As for tool steel comparo's, that's a complex game clearly. See posts elsewhere on this forum. Brent Beach's site has a link to Crucible indicating that 10% vanadium compared to M2 produces 2x the wear resistance - and I don't think this was with cryo treatment. Jim Staley's tests (Morewoodturning) suggest that Cryo makes no difference. I understand that you've found that it does providing that it's done between temperings.

There are clearly a lot of variables - grindwheel grit (hence burr), steel composition, wood, bevel angles etc etc.

All good fun anyway.

And you have some fairly dense woods over your way too.

Added: LoL, so you keep coming back. Good on ya ;-}

.. and my JJ hollowing tips are yours? Small world.

rsser
27th October 2008, 11:55 AM
Gouge arrived this morning as it happens; thanks Doug.

Milling of the flute looks pretty clean.

Edge is sharp and ready to go.

The 3/8" blank has a bit of a tang which is a pity; had planned to cut it into two for double-ended Oland-type bits.

Doug Thompson
27th October 2008, 01:02 PM
Ern,
The3/8 blank is setup to make a 3 point, round skew or fluteless gouge. For John Jordan I made his bowl gouges and detail gouges, John does the hollowing tools but I could make them when he asks.

Now make some shavings!

rsser
27th October 2008, 01:31 PM
First make a nice heavy handle ;-}

Yeah, tell JJ his hollower users would like some bits out of your steel! (They're small and have to work hard).

Re the 3/8 blank, I guess I missed the point about the tang on your website. No drama. Just use 2 set screws in the hollow shaft.

Doug Thompson
27th October 2008, 01:57 PM
Ern, since your talking about it what diameter and length is the steel in Johns hollowing tools. (mm's is fine)

rsser
27th October 2008, 02:41 PM
Doug,

refer to the Large Hollowing set at http://www.johnjordanwoodturning.com/John_Jordan_Woodturning/Turning_Tools.html

The straight shaft uses a 3/16" square bit that is 1.25" long.

The bent shafts mount the same bits but they are turned round at the shaft end: 5/16" long shank (no flats), a smidgen under 3/16" diam, and 13/16" long overall.

(The spare straight bit I have from JJ is marked as made in China).

I can see why you'd want min. bit length but it doesn't leave much for resharpening.

Hope this helps.

Added: Doug, scroll down on the JJ web-link above to see the cost of his replacement bits.

I ordered a pair of the turned shank bits as spares and by way of bonus got set screws, an Allen key and a straight bit. Can't carp about that. You guys in the US have got customer service down pat. Pity that the exchange rate has gone down the tube.

rsser
5th November 2008, 06:08 PM
Made some shavings Doug .. if only to produce a handle :-

Hardened brass ferrule, Oz redgum handle (Euc Camaldulensis) which is hefty.

While it's no respect to your work on the flute and grind I'll be using this to hog out our hardwoods - will work with your grind but if nec. reshape it to pretty much straight across.

Doug Thompson
9th November 2008, 03:34 AM
Ern,
Sorry to take so long to get back to you but it's been busy around here. The handle looks very nice, let me know what you think about the steel. Roughing is were these tools stand out, some people rough with these tools and keep one tool just for the finish cut.

I looked at JJ's site and I couldn't make the smaller bits for the same price. flat stock in this steel is to costly because they don't make flat stock so everything starts out as a block of steel then is cut down to size.