Square roughing gouge version, WIP

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

Myself, like so many of us, are following the development and test runs of the new Ci1, as one of the best roughing tools ever made. I agree, the price here in Australia for one of these with a few spare cutters, is high and will continue expensive whilst our dollar value is low. Some will debate what is the secret of this tool, the way I see it, is the combination of certain accessories & smart design. The main secret is the tungsten cutters, there are no really doubts about it, reason why nothing cuts like it!.
I "recently" made an attempt to purchase the original Ci1 tool (complete) with half a dozen spare cutters, but unfortunately, my timing was really bad, with the AU dollar at its lowest so, I had to back out, in despite of the great deal offer made by Joanne.

Nevertheless, I will own the real thing one day but, for now, I decided to have a go at making myself a square tipped roughing gouge, using a HSS square bar blank, purchase at the recent Adelaide Timber Show, from McJing Tools.
I did actually purchase 2, one 16mm and other at 12mm, and they both will be use to make a serious of experiments in the near future.

I decide to start the WIP (work in progress) thread and add as I go, instead of doing it all in the end (as normal:U). So, the idea at this point is to sharpen the square end gouge, following the same principal used on the Ci1, and see out it performs, no handle yet. This stage was completed and tested. I can't really compare with the Ci1, just because I have never tried one but, quite honestly and been realistic, no one can make an HSS edge, perform as an tungsten or carbide factory sharped edge. Cuts very well, and will give me the best roughing tool option I own at the moment, believe it or not, mainly after I get the handle made for it.

Now, the handle will be another interesting project, it will be made out of heavy wood, with an over-sized neck and ferrule to accommodate 2 allen screws to hold the shaft in place. The inside handle (shaft housing) will be filled with rifle bedding compound to create the square hole and to minimise vibrations. The handle will also have a "weight balance compartment" at the far end for tools equilibrium.

The other stage of this tool is to cut, drill, and tap a 5 mm thread (or whatever necessary) on the other end of the shaft, to screw in, the same (or identical) tungsten cutters used on the Ci1.
Basically, this tool will be made ready to accommodate those special Ci1 cutters, when possible, making it a useful tool in the mean time.

Ok, now that the "secret" is revealed:doh:, I will update this thread as I get things done, for now, some pics of what is done so far.

Cheers
RBTCO:2tsup:

[regulated]

Looks good

I don't know why people aren't trying to make these. You can get the tips cheap as chips from any tool shop that sells metal lathe stuff. I have a few ready to go, just need the HSS blank and get it drilled.

It will be interesting to see how well it cuts.

BJ

[robutacion]

Hi regulated,

You don't need the shaft to be in HSS if you want to use it only with the tungsten cutters, any stainless square bar will do, and is cheaper.
In relation to the cutters, I'm not sure if those you are talking about are any good for this purpose, as I believe, those are made to cut steel, therefore are not sharp enough to timber cutting.
I have not yet found in any of my searching efforts, the type of cutters used in the Ci1 tool. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if they are not sold by anyone else, maybe a patent thing.

What about you show us some pics of those cutters of yours? that would be appreciated.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[Mobil Man]

Isn't that basically the same thing as the Oland tool?

[regulated]

Hey,

I think it was someone on this forum who did this and they used a diamond bit in a dremel to get the metal cutting carbide tips sharp and touch them up after turning for a while. From what I remember it worked pretty good.

I think the oland tool is similar. There is a recent post about it but I think they are using M2 HSS for the tip.



BJ

[woodwork wally]

Gidday Regulated dont even worry about HSS or stainlees . Quality Bright steel of the correct dimensions is as good as stainless and does less damage to your tool rest Make sure that you take the edge off the bottom Corners by rounding them off and choose your cutter tips carefully to come up with the sharpest. and they can be sharpened on diamond It takes a little longer I will be using the wheel in my circular saw sharpener which is for doing the TC. tips on the saw blades. Dont buy the real cheap as chips cutters as they wont possibly be sharp enough. the best ones have a very bright even lin at the top edge. If you have any worries give me a pm and I'll try to help Cheers WW.Wally

[Frank&Earnest]

WW, could you please say what is a reasonable price for the square cutters, and what is cheap as chips? It would be easy to buy a box of 100 straight from China.

[hughie]

,
just need the HSS blank and get it drilled.


optimist!

[regulated]

Yeah it is a bit harder to get someone to drill HSS. Couple of phone calls and its all sorted once I actually get a blank. Decent metal fabricators nearly all have TC drills.

It may pay to look for some bright steel but. I am getting a lot of chunks in the tool rest these days. Got to grind it down again soon.

I grabbed some chinese and good quality TC tips a while ago and you can tell the nice shiny looking ones will be the go. Much better quality. Still only $10-30 for a tip and they are local. Bit of work on the dremel and she'll be right to go.

BJ

[oldiephred]

I seem to be missing something?? What is the difference between what is being discussed here and the oland tool discussed a few days ago other than the shape of the cutting surface. It is possible to purchase the square end carbide bits at the same shops that have the HSS. They do need a different sharpening stone (which we refer to as a green wheel, which I believe is properly called aluminum oxide) but they work well on wood. They are available in LH , RH, Threading and square end configurations.
If I have totally misunderstood the sway of this thread, please totally ignore me---I'm fully used to that in this house:U

[Ad de Crom]

RBTCO, you're my man.
Developing your own tools and try them out, that's what I like, anyway much more than buying tools.

Ad :2tsup:

[robutacion]

I seem to be missing something?? What is the difference between what is being discussed here and the oland tool discussed a few days ago other than the shape of the cutting surface. It is possible to purchase the square end carbide bits at the same shops that have the HSS. They do need a different sharpening stone (which we refer to as a green wheel, which I believe is properly called aluminum oxide) but they work well on wood. They are available in LH , RH, Threading and square end configurations.
If I have totally misunderstood the sway of this thread, please totally ignore me---I'm fully used to that in this house:U

G'day oldiephred,

I had a good idea about the thread you're talking about but, I went back and re-read it again so that I could be certain of my comments.

This is in no way the same or even similar with the Oland tool, I've got 2, I know!
Have a look at this one I've made some time ago, here (http://timberssoul.webs.com/multiturninggouge.htm)

What is in fact this tool I'm developing?
1- Very simply, a much cheaper version of the Ci1, using one solid piece of square HSS, which already come cut with the correct front angles on both ends.
2- A tool that will have both ends grind as above (interchangeable from the same handle)
3- A tool that can have one side as above and the other with a Ci1 type tungsten cutter
4- A tool that can have both ends with tungsten Ci1 cutters (one straight one curved sharped surfaces
5- A tool that will have a heavy duty made handle from some hard/dense timber, with a double thickness and length ferrule for the drilling and taping of 2 grab screws
6- A tool that will have the shaft (which part of the tool end not in use) bedded with special aluminium rifle bedding compound into the handle housing
7- A tool that will have a weight/balance compartment at the handle far end, for tool balance.
8- A tool that can me made by anyone
9- A tool that is not expensive to make
10- A tool that will be durable and made for heavy duty stuff
11- A tool that will work
12- A tool that will look good.

Now, I can't say anymore because isn't done yet, these are the plans and characteristics I will be looking for, as I make it.
A perfect score would be excellent, I will be satisfied with a score of 10 out of 12 so, lets wait and see what I came up with.

When finished and tested, if the tool become a good option for others, I will be pleased, if not, doesn't really matter, it will be at least the "original":D

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[robutacion]

Hi peoples,

Another little push on this project of mine. Today I manage to cut the handle (looks like Bay leaf tree) but is not, maybe a relative or something. This timber is really heavy and hard as rocks:D. Pretty to look at with fine rays through it.
Anyway, I decide to "copy" the Ci1 handle design, but a little bigger as the one of Cliff (thanks for the idea Cliff). I have never tried a handle with this profile, it does look interesting and it appear to work well, will see!
The ferrule was made out of old electric planner, front adjustable plate tube assembly. Is a little harder then aluminium so I reckon is more alloy(ish). The ferrule was glued with epoxy, the hole is 22mm in diameter and nearly 4" deep. For the bottom weigh balancer, I drilled a 19mm hole, deep enough to store an allen key, a dozen cutters and a couple of spare screws. Instead of filling it with shotgun lead shot, I reckon the weigh of this spares is enough to balance it, making the compartment a very useful storage add on.
I did initially not contemplated to make the handle using 2 different types of wood, but the best length I had, was ok for a normal gouge handle but, a little too short for what I wanted so, I simply added the spare cutters compartment cap, using a piece of sheoak. The handle gripping part has some texturing and the line burning was again based on the original Ci1 design.
I finish for the day with the bedding of the gouge square shaft with the common rifle bedding product, leaving it setting until tomorrow or so. The next step is to drill and tap 2 x 5 mm grab screws on the ferrule, to keep the shaft into place and loosen when I want to use the other end of the tool. I wanted to cut a (male/female) thread on the bottom cap (spare compartment) but, I don't any have the tools to do it so, is got a tight fit but I will do a " half twist locking grove" on the handle part and a "guide pin" on the cap. After that, I'm thinking in leave it in its natural colours, giving it a good coat of sending sealer and a coat of the tough Floorseal from FeastWatson. Will see...!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

Well, this is how far I'm going to go until I get some "proper" tungsten cutters.
I'm using the tool with one end sharp as the Ci1 cutters, and the other not touched yet.:cool:

I've filled the end compartment with lose lead shot for now, until I get those cutters (spares/hex key/spare screws) to put on it.
The tool feels heavy but comfortable as it should.
Did I say that the handle was mostly turned with this tool without the handle (bar,only after shaped & sharped)?:roll:
The timber come out well, I reckon...!:D

Looking forward to finish this tool soon, not so keen in drill and tap the HSS, tough!:(

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[Ed Reiss]

Nicely done RBTCO!:2tsup:

[Cliff Rogers]

In case you missed it elsewhere, have a look here.
http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-Carbide-Inserts-cln-Wood-Cutting/Categories

[robutacion]

Yeah, thanks again Cliff.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[hughie]

Regulated dont even worry about HSS or stainlees . Quality Bright steel of the correct dimensions is as good as stainless and does less damage to your tool rest



I looked at that and I though it was largely a selling angle in the use of stainless. Its true stainless is very stiff and wont bend easily but it also can fracture because it does not like bending.Mind you it might take some real frightening events to break 1/2"sq :o:o:o

If we looked at Bohler 1020 as [readily available in all major centres] it would do just fine at a fraction of the cost.Machining is far easier as well.

[robutacion]

Hi Hughie,
You could gives us your thoughts on the best square bar material for the making of these type gouges, and possible prices for the 12 - 15 & 16 mm sizes, at about 10 to 12" long. I reckon the 12 mm bar can accommodate 12 & 14 mm cutters/inserts and the 16mm bar can also easily accommodate the 15 & 17 mm cutters/inserts. I'm really looking forward to fit a good cutter on this new tool of mine and give it a proper workout in a serious piece of timber, yeah!.

I reckon, I will take unexplainable and nasty forces from Hell, to brake this gouge, At the same token, I hope never experience such event either, never...!

I need some cutters urgently, anyone has some available here is Australia?

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[robutacion]

Hi Everyone,

While I'm waiting for the 17mm inserts, I decided to start on the stainless 12mm bar and inserts (12 & 14mm) that Frank posted to me just before the weekend.
I've done it both ends (one with 12mm the other with the 14mm) this afternoon, so now the only thing needed for this tool is the handle, which will be made in a similar way as the 16mm bar one above.
I struggle a bit, as I'm having troubles with my neck (again), so it took a bit longer than it should but, is done! I'm not 100% sure but I think that I cut a little too much on the end of the bar, where it meets with the bottom of the insert. I would have preferred to have the end of the cutters continue in line with the shaft (bar), like the original, so if it "digs in" I know why, and I will correct it. I will make sure the big one (15 &17mm tool) will have this detail corrected. It is even possible that will make no difference, I will know as soon as I make the handle for the 12mm tool, but I believe it will dig in a lot easier this way, which makes sense! Will see...!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

Well, the 12mm roughing gouge double ended, is finished. Was a little tricky to get the 14mm insert end, to slide into the handle but, it is all done and working!

Still waiting for the 15 & 17mm inserts to finish the big gouge.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

I've received Cliff's 15mm inserts this morning so, I decided to get into it and get my 16mm HSS bar fitted with them on one end, (the end I had already started shaping and had it sharp on my first post).
I will have a lot less to cut on the HSS bar when I fit the 17mm inserts on the other end but, being the bar 16mm, I had to remove some steel (down to 12mm approx.) where the insert base meet with the HSS bar.
Working with HSS (cutting/grinding) is not the easiest jobs in the world but drill and tap a small hole (well, any size hole...!), is an absolute nightmare:no:. Impossible to do with normal tools, I nearly broke every drill and tap of special steel I had (from gun-smithing times).
OK, maybe I got it done but, I've still got the other end to do, do I...????:doh::~
I will not recommend anyone to use HSS bars to make these type tools, stainless and/or other steels are a much better and economical option. I'm actually thinking if I should shape and sharp the other end of this bar, as it was and get some 16mm stainless to fit the 17mm inserts on both ends, and make another handle (another tool!)

Now, imagine a 17mm insert on a 16mm square solid steel shaft, heavy duty handle, with anti-vibration bedding grout on the shaft housing...!, yeah...that's a man's bloody tool, huh? Should I need a bigger lathe (more power/torque)?
I should be ok with timbers for giving it a good run, do I...?:D

Sorry that the pics didn't come up that good...!:(

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO