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Craig Jackson
23rd November 2008, 02:25 AM
I am truely flattered by all the possitive comments from customers all over the world who have used our Easy Rougher tools. We seem to be causing a lot of folks to take a new look at the way woodturning is done.

I just feel an overwhelming need to caution everyone else to please not compare other attempts at our design to the real thing.

At first glance I must say, our tools look simple enough that anyone could make one. But like many other things in life- the devil is in the details. Without a complete understanding of all the little details that make our tools sucessfull and the physical forces developed during heavy roughing cuts, an attempt to copy can be disasterous and an unfair comparason to a tool that can make your hobby much more enjoyable.

In closing, if you still decide to 'make your own' tool, please at least consider using carbide inserts designed for woodturning and not metalworking inserts.
I am a master machinist by trade and assure you they are not the same.

Craig Jackson
Easy Wood Tools

robutacion
23rd November 2008, 03:05 AM
I am truely flattered by all the possitive comments from customers all over the world who have used our Easy Rougher tools. We seem to be causing a lot of folks to take a new look at the way woodturning is done.

I just feel an overwhelming need to caution everyone else to please not compare other attempts at our design to the real thing.

At first glance I must say, our tools look simple enough that anyone could make one. But like many other things in life- the devil is in the details. Without a complete understanding of all the little details that make our tools sucessfull and the physical forces developed during heavy roughing cuts, an attempt to copy can be disasterous and an unfair comparason to a tool that can make your hobby much more enjoyable.

In closing, if you still decide to 'make your own' tool, please at least consider using carbide inserts designed for woodturning and not metalworking inserts.
I am a master machinist by trade and assure you they are not the same.

Craig Jackson
Easy Wood Tools

Thanks again Craig,

I believe, your words of caution are very appropriate, as you generous recommendation in relation to the type of inserts should be used for the home made rougher.

That is indeed been a issue discussed by some members, and appear to have created some confusion. That has been also my recommendation, that inserts for metal cutting are not the some as inserts for timber cutting! Being necessity the mother of invention, some will be able to re-shape and re-sharp, metal cutting inserts and obtain satisfactory results, at least for a little while...!:D

Whatever you do, be careful!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

jefferson
23rd November 2008, 08:45 AM
Craig,

I have both the Ci1 and the Ci2, plus the "loaner" Ci1 you so generously sent me. I have no idea where the loaner tool is - currently doing the rounds among forum members somewhere.

I got in at the right time, when the Aussie dollar was near on par with the greenback. Not so anymore, which unfortunately adds a considerable premium to your products! With the benefit of hindsight, someone should have stocked up on inserts.

I am very happy with the tools, particularly for hollowing lidded boxes. No doubt others have found different uses for the tool.

Back to you and good luck when the $A improves a little.

Jeff

hughie
23rd November 2008, 09:07 AM
Craig,

Timely comments considering all the recent posts. But tinkerers will be tinkerers, and necessity maybe the mother of invention, but so is the exchange rate. :D

Texian
23rd November 2008, 12:08 PM
Craig,

Refreshing to learn that not everyone from Owensboro is a race car driver or motorcycle racer. Was beginning to think that y'all had some kind of weird genetic thing goin' on.

Very considerate and generous advice about the carbide inserts.

Frank&Earnest
23rd November 2008, 12:55 PM
Yeah Craig, sorry I made life a bit more difficult for you as a tinkerer, of course personal experiences are only that, extrapolating generalities from them is a mistake that hopefully forum members are smart enough not to make.

Your product will stand up on its merits, no matter the number of inferior clones popping out. Free market is always the best solution, didn't Bush just reiterate it yesterday?:)

For the benefit of all, though, it would be much appreciated if you explained the differences and properties of various carbide standards, as Studley briefly did in the other threads. A meaningful discussion between competent people is the best a forum can hope for, is it not?

robutacion
23rd November 2008, 11:17 PM
:repplus:

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

dai sensei
23rd November 2008, 11:28 PM
I was one of the lucky ones that ordered mine with a heap of spare tips while the Ausy $ was good against the greenback a while back.

I love mine :2tsup:. Everyone I have deomonstrated it with have also been pleased with the result. I like my handle better though :rolleyes::U

Thanks again Craig

Craig Jackson
24th November 2008, 02:03 AM
Craig,

Refreshing to learn that not everyone from Owensboro is a race car driver or motorcycle racer. Was beginning to think that y'all had some kind of weird genetic thing goin' on.

Very considerate and generous advice about the carbide inserts.

As for us all being 'racecar drivers' in my area we do have a large ratio of people who drive fast, and dangerously, around here and I am glad to some of them find a way to get out of town and make a living out of it. There are still many 'wan-a-be's' on the road though!

But seriously, back to the cutters. I recall where someone earlier asked if I invented or pantented the cutters. No to both questions. Nor did I invent the stainless steel or the maple in the handle or the Lexan in the shield. I do not mean to come across as a smarty here.
I have heard it said, and read it somewhere, there is nothing new under the sun. So, inventions can never be more than the combining of existing technologies into novel combinations. That is what we have done here. Taken sound materials and concepts and put them together in a most useful combination.

I will take credit for a few things here though:
-Using a square cutter vs round (more on that below)
-A tool with a removable chip deflector
-Use a square shank for tool stability
-Design a tool that does not 'catch' due to its' neutral cutting angle
-Provide an ergonomic handle with a double grip
-Furniture quality finishing on our handles
-A tool that is always used level so all the cutting force go into the tool rest instead of your hands/arms/body
-A tool that can cut left, right and straight in with the same stance and tool angle
-Stainless steel tools that never rust
-Free instructional DVD with tool purchase
I could go on hear but the point is this is a total package, not just a cutter tip.

We hold no patents but believe the combination of our continued inovation, fair price and over the top tool quality and customer service will provide our place in the market.

All-in-all we believe our tools to be a great overall value and possibly the easiest, safest, most efficient woodturning tools available.
Sincerely,
Craig Jackson

P.S. More on the square cutter next.

Craig Jackson
24th November 2008, 03:33 AM
Topic- Round vs. Square
I get asked dozens of times when I demo a Symposiums 'why not a round cutter like everyone else'? :?
Well, let me first state that I am a master machinist by trade and have made a good living removing mass amounts of material to get down to that last cut. In the metalworking trade we call this the money cut.

When you think about it, 'the last cut' is really all we are going for on any project. It is the only cut you can sell and the only cut your wife will put her all judging hands against.:doh: Who cares what it looks like during roughing.
The following is not just my opinion or some unfounded theory but yet just good old proven math and physics. One of our main goals is to help customers put physics on their side instead of against them.

So, how do we arrive at this last cut the most efficient way? The answer is make as few a cuts as possible with the greatest depth of cut per pass, period.
To do this we need to be highly aware of tool engagement. This means what one must reduce the ratio of cutter contact per depth of cut to the absolute minimum.
If our Easy Roughers had a round cutter you can easily see that it would cut the total allowable depth of cut per pass in half due to the fact that after you reach a cut depth equal to the radius of the cutter the tool contact begins to wrap around the cutter.
This is for one- a very dangerous condition and two - even if if were safe, if would not be very efficient as cutter contact for the round vs the square (straight cutting edge) is 1.57 times greater for the round cutter on the same depth of cut.

Math- for a 15mm depth of cut, a straight cutting edge has 15mm of tool contact.
A round cutter for the same 15mm cut would have half of its' circumference or 15 x 3.14/2 = 23.55mm of tool contact. 23.55/15 is a ratio of 1.57/1.

That means 1.57 times the physical effort, 1.57 times the horse power, 1.57 times the material clamping strength... The straight cutting edge is 1.57 times more efficient. :oo:

I believe most will understand at this point that a straight cutting edge is preferred over a curved edge, for at least roughing.

Now all that is left, for this discussion, is tool angle in relation to the travel of the tool. Perpendicular is the goal here. If the the cutting edge is at any angle other than square to the travel of the tool then cutter contact is increased per depth of cut. If you remember anything from math class, you know the hypotenuse is always the longest side of a triangle. I will spare you the math this time but a cutting edge at 45 degrees to the travel of the tool is 1.41 times less efficient.

Most people, novices and professionals, are fooled into thinking the goal is the width of the shaving (or ribbon):no:. I have even seen in expensive videos the instructor point out the ribbon size and believe he was really doing some good. My goal is to remove wood, efficiently by reducing my shaving size per depth of cut.

So in the end, a straight cutting edge that is perpendicular the the travel of the tool is the most productive method for getting to the money cut:2tsup:.

We are in the process of getting this educational topic on our website and these other topics yet discussed here-
finishing cuts, tool bar shape, primary and secondary cutting edges, the reason a catch occurs, cutting edge support, the 'step method' for even easier roughing

Craig Jackson

steck
24th November 2008, 07:49 AM
Hi Craig,
I am enjoying this thread and learning a lot as well.
I borrowed your "loaner" and was very impressed with how quickly and easily it got rid of the "roughage"!
Unfortunately our $ took a swan dive and that put paid to my dreams of ownership for the present.
Congratulations on a great tool and thank you for making the loan tool available.

Frank&Earnest
24th November 2008, 12:04 PM
...
Well, let me first state that I am a master machinist by trade and have made a good living removing mass amounts of material to get down to that last cut. In the metalworking trade we call this the money cut.

When you think about it, 'the last cut' is really all we are going for on any project. It is the only cut you can sell and the only cut your wife will put her all judging hands against.:doh: Who cares what it looks like during roughing.
....

So in the end, a straight cutting edge that is perpendicular the the travel of the tool is the most productive method for getting to the money cut:2tsup:.

Craig Jackson

Thanks Craig. You have confirmed most eloquently what I very concisely said was the mode of operation and the real value of the tool:
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=70985
I am no experienced metalworker but physics is physics. :2tsup: I am surprised that BobL has not entered the fray yet...:wink:

robutacion
25th November 2008, 02:38 AM
Thanks Craig,

I'm pleased that you decided to "play with us and not against us!", if you know what I mean, and I certainly believe, you do.

No one would think that coming up with the design and functionality of such tool, is the result of a overnight dream, nor a "fluke". Your description of steps taken and the logics used are of interest to all of us. There are many other aspects to this tool of yours, being the inserts used (construction, composition, sharpness, re-sharping, etc, etc.) also of crucial & critical importance so, if you would also gives us a run on the matter, we would me most thankful.

Once again, thank you for your continued contribution to this thread.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

new_guy90
25th November 2008, 11:31 AM
ok heres maybe a stupid Q but these carbide inserts do they cut shavings of or are they used as scrapers? i for one don't particularly like this idea maybe my time on large center lathes using carbide inserts and seeing how they cut makes me feel uncertain about these tools.

Cliff Rogers
25th November 2008, 11:37 AM
... these carbide inserts do they cut shavings of or are they used as scrapers? ....


They are used as scrapers & depending on the type of wood you are using, you can get shavings.

I have used to to rough out wet Hoop Pine & it made BUCKET loads of long wet streamers.

Some of the harder inland timbers that prefer to be scraped also produce shavings if you don't push too hard.

Craig Jackson
25th November 2008, 12:09 PM
We recommend keeping our tools level to the floor for all cuts. I get asked a lot if the EasyRougher is technically a scraping cut or not and I have not be able to answer for sure as I had never actually looked up the definition till now.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scrape
scrape
Verb
[scraping, scraped]
1. to move (a rough or sharp object) across (a surface)

http://www.yourdictionary.com/scraper
scrape (skrāp)
transitive verb scraped (http://www.yourdictionary.com/scraped), scraping (http://www.yourdictionary.com/scraping) scrap′·ing

to rub over the surface of with something rough or sharp
to make smooth or clean by rubbing with a tool or abrasive
to remove by rubbing with something sharp or rough: with off, out, etc.


I am not so sure it would be classified as scraping because with all traditional scraping type tools the tip is lowered (by raising the handle) to create a safer negative cutting angle where our tools are used level or know as a nuetral cutting angle.

Note: Bowl gouges are usually presented to the work in a manner which the cutting edge is generally at a high positive angle. This has to do more with rotation of the flute than with the levelness of the tool (handle). This is exactly what leads to the associated catches with those tools, and dirty trousers. It 'sucks', or self feeds, into the work where a nuetral, or negative, cutting angle will not self feed. This keeps trousers clean.

So, what is the vote? Is it scraping or what is it?
Craig

Cliff Rogers
25th November 2008, 12:29 PM
... Is it scraping or what is it?....

Because the sharp edge is tilted ever so slightly up at the front, I'd say that it is part way between a scrape & a peel cut.

On some timber, particularly the wet Hoop I used it on, the shaving peels off like peeling an orange.

On a harder piece that I tried, while it was cutting the dry outside of the blank, the waste came off as splinters until I got into the smoother, damper timber & then it also peeled off in a streamer.

When the tool is moved sideways with the cut happening on the side of the tool, that side is angled back ever so slightly so it is more like a shear scrape.
Again, if the timber is smooth & wet, the shaving peels off but if it is hard & dry & uneven, it tends to splinter/chip/shatter.

jefferson
25th November 2008, 01:04 PM
Scaper or not? I'm no expert but I've probably used the Ci1 more than most here in Oz.

Much depends on the timber / hardness and whether you cut above or below centre. And whether you cut end grain or not.

Like Cliff, I've had curlies stream off the tool, even on hard redgum (a timber that Craig will not know of, so maybe someone could give an American equivalent?).

But curlies are no definition or test either, as my HD scrapers peel fluffy curlies off the tool as well on face-plate work.

For me, the acid test has been with peeling cuts on between centre work, mostly on KD redgum. With a sharp insert, the finish is superb. But that goes against the grain for the pros who argue that scrapers have no use on such work.

But the Ci1 DOES well at this task. You can't argue with the finish. So that says to me that the tool cuts. I certainly can't get the same finish with super-sharp scrapers.

That said, I won't be using the Ci1 for that work ordinarily. I prefer to keep the inserts sharp for end grain work!

Jeff

RETIRED
25th November 2008, 02:09 PM
Scraper.

new_guy90
25th November 2008, 04:26 PM
interesting from what i know of cutting implements on wood they bevel rub then you angle them a bit more to put on the cut so whit this ci1 kept flat to the work piece its more like how metal tools cut (metal lathes and the like) where they don't bevel rub but have clearance and its more to do with the shape of the tool as to how the cuts are taken. so is this sort of how they work or does the bevel rub? wait before that do they have a bevel:??

Stu in Tokyo
25th November 2008, 09:14 PM
Great thread, I'm learning so much, thanks for doing this Craig, most tool makers are not interested in any discussion about how their tools work.

I'm lucky in that the Yen is stronger against the US dollar than it has been in years, but, I'm so busy with other things I'd have to look to find my bloody lathe :doh:

Cheers!

robutacion
26th November 2008, 02:21 AM
I would be happy to call it a scraper type tool, Craig!

It takes no skin out of anyones nose, what type is, really...! is no less "value" on one than the other, all have their purpose, now does this type tool does what is intended to do, remove large quantities of timber, of any timber, very quickly, so called timber roughing? yes, it does, and it does it better than any other tool I've seen or tried so far (considering that I haven't used an original, yet!), maybe one day...!:D

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

new_guy90
26th November 2008, 09:17 AM
wow this tool sounds very good i don't know if id get one (money troubles :(() oh just to clear up confusion, when i asked if it was a scraper i didn't mean that its any less of a tool i simply wanted to know how it cut. thanks for answering my Q's and all the best with your product:2tsup:

Cliff Rogers
26th November 2008, 09:43 AM
wow this tool sounds very good....

Where abouts in Queensland are you? (bloody big place)

There is one floating around that you may be able to test drive.

Craig Jackson
26th November 2008, 12:31 PM
robutacion,
You are right, at the end of the day it makes no difference (to most people) wheither it is this cut or that cut.

It would be nice as a craft though to get a firm definition on many woodworking terms, such as types of cuts.
I am NOT saying this should be solved on this forum and really have little interest in going any deeper into the subject myself, at least for a while. Just thinking about the new folks getting up to speed more easily.
Peeling
scraping
shearing
gouging
pull cut
finger cut :C
Craig

Stu in Tokyo
27th November 2008, 12:56 AM
robutacion,
........................
Peeling
scraping
shearing
gouging
pull cut
finger cut :C
Craig

Heck I do all of those and I STILL need the #80 grit gouge :B :U

Frank&Earnest
27th November 2008, 02:57 PM
Heck I do all of those and I STILL need the #80 grit gouge :B :U

Well, you are 20 grit better than I am, then.:D

new_guy90
27th November 2008, 06:48 PM
:? what do you mean by grit?

Cliff Rogers
27th November 2008, 07:42 PM
Saaaaannnnnndddddd paper. :D

Craig Jackson
28th November 2008, 12:32 AM
I just read the BEST article I have sen on scraping!
Alan Lancer wrote it in American Woodturner Winter 2008 Vol.23 No.4
Craig

TTIT
30th November 2008, 01:40 AM
Gave Cliff's rougher a run today. Decided to tackle a Silvertop resin-burl I've been avoiding because it looked like it would be too big a job.
Pic.1 Mounted it on a big faceplate and took to it with the Ci1 at about 600 rpm to start off.
Pic.2 The Ci1 made getting the blank trued a lot easier than it would have been with a gouge and the deflector kept most of the waste close to the lathe which was good.
Pic.3 Certainly removes a lot of timber in a hurry but also takes out a lot of bits I didn't want to lose.
Pic.4 On the left is the surface left by the Ci1 once I got it down to shape and at right is the same section after a couple of light passes with the bowl gouge followed by a shear cut with the wing of the gouge. Really didn't take much to clean the whole thing up ready for sanding.
Pic.5 Figured the burl wasn't solid enough to hold by a recess or spigot so I glued one on and reshaped again to include a foot (just felt it needed one :shrug: )
Pic.6 Reversed the piece, drilled a starter-hole and started hacking the guts out at about 1000rpm. The edge of the cutter seemed to have dulled a bit already and was really shaking the works so I gave it 1/4 turn and kept going. Found I was getting showered with waste in this mode 'cos it all seems to go straight up and come down on my noggin and down my back - nasty!. I took quite a bit out with the Ci1 but it was really hard going on the piece itself and I didn't want to blow it apart so....
Pic.7...I reverted to the old faithful gouge which quietly sliced away without putting so much stress on everything.( and just streaming shavings on to my arm :U )
Pic.8 Wanted to see how the Rougher would go on a chunk of Quinine which is the hardest and most abrasive timber I know. One pass on even a small piece like this will take the edge off HSS completely. Handled it commendably!
Pic.9 Also tried roughing down a piece of Dead-Finish to see what sort of surface it would leave. Not bad - but those of you who know Dead-Finish will know it is possible to get a glossy finish if you use a slicing cut with bevel rub.

Summary: Is there a place for it in my kit? Yep! Just won't be on the rack of 'most used' chisels. It's noisy and put's a lot of strain on the gear but it will be invalueable with some of the timbers I use. Will just have to include the cost of the cutters in the price if I ever start selling anything :;:U

It is definitely a scraper!

new_guy90
30th November 2008, 11:56 AM
i think one day i will have to try this tool could be very useful

Cliff Rogers
30th November 2008, 02:12 PM
i think one day i will have to try this tool could be very useful

Where abouts in Qld are you, do you want to try that one, it was sent to me by Craig to review, I passed it on to TTIT, if you want to try it, we can arrange it.

hughie
30th November 2008, 05:57 PM
I agree with Vern, it has a place as one of the tools in the collection. What I find is its tough going ripping the bark etc off a burl. So for me here it will shine, but with a long handle and a solid curved rest.

For me its essentially a further progreesion in these tools Oland tool - Jordan and then the C1 etc

Frank&Earnest
1st December 2008, 03:01 PM
Thanks Hughie, I was sure you or others would touch on this without me needing to introduce the comparison. The traditional Oland tool cutter, from what I can gather, is fingernail shaped and is less aggressive than the Ci1, a compromise between maximum roughing effectiveness and finishing. It would appear to me that a square insert with rounded corners mounted at 45 degrees, so as to present the rounded corner, would achieve a similar result. What do you think?

CameronPotter
11th December 2008, 03:14 PM
The Ci1 looks like the tool itself is pretty much some square stock with a threaded hole... The magic is in the inserts?

If that is the case I imagine that ordering inserts would cost a LOT less in terms of postage and the inserts are not all that expensive (US$13 or something). Thus you can have a Ci1 without a big expenditure.

Any thoughts?

Frank&Earnest
11th December 2008, 04:20 PM
Yep, you are missing about 6 weeks' discussion.:D

Cliff Rogers
11th December 2008, 09:39 PM
The Ci1 looks like the tool itself is pretty much some square stock with a threaded hole... The magic is in the inserts?....

Almost....

The angle that the insert is presented to the timber also makes a difference & for this reason the 'pad' on the tip of the tool holder that the insert sits on is tilted back at a slight angle.

Next...

A point not to be over looked.
Somewhere in the instructions, (oops, blokes don't read them. :doh:) it says not to have any more than a 25mm over hang.
Since both & I regularly do so with our HT HS1 & get away with it, we found out the hard way. :oo:
BTW. To do so is classed as misuse. :D

Further more....

I reckon the real secret to this tool is the chip deflector 'cos if you use it straight on with a plunge cut without the chip deflector you will carry out a self administered Septoplasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septoplasty) with wood chips. :p

masoth
12th December 2008, 12:16 AM
Septoplasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septoplasty) ......... clever dick.:oo:

soth

hughie
12th December 2008, 12:29 AM
[ It would appear to me that a square insert with rounded corners mounted at 45 degrees, so as to present the rounded corner, would achieve a similar result. What do you think?
[/QUOTE]

Sorry Frank some how I missed this one. :?

Anyway, yes I think your right. I have played around with the same idea.The only thing is it wont produce a smooth finish but it does bite real well.

CameronPotter
12th December 2008, 10:32 AM
Thanks Cliff,

I would have thought that the angle of cut could be corrected by tilting the tool ever so slightly, but maybe that changes the mechanics of the way you present the tool. :?

As for the other two points:

1. Shame about the lack of overhang - it would be a nice tool for aggressive hollowing by the sounds of it.
2. I would think that the chip deflector concept could be fitted to any tool?

Anyway, it sounds as though a home-made version with the good tips would still be a "knock-off" type quality rather than the real thing.:-

Cheers

Cam

hughie
12th December 2008, 10:37 AM
Cameron if you go to a round nose tip then the overhang problem is not much to worry about.
I have several round nose cutters of different dia's and there little or no problem. The round nose it not so fierce. :2tsup:

CameronPotter
12th December 2008, 11:42 AM
Sounds like I had better get a traditional Oland type tool then... :D

hughie
12th December 2008, 01:12 PM
:U now your talking..................subtle as a broken leg :U:U

But I use TCT recycled old ones pm if you dont have access to any. :2tsup:

robutacion
12th December 2008, 01:20 PM
Sounds like I had better get a traditional Oland type tool then... :D

Well, not really Cameron!
If the tool you are looking for is for removing lots of timber very quickly, there is turn of very out of shape blank, into a first stage form shaping, then you will not find anything that can do it like this tool does, regardless if you use the original or a well built copy. The deflector is essential for this type of tool, due to what it does to the timber,(remove vast amount, fast), the shavings have to go somewhere, the original defector design is just a example of what can be done to stop shavings to hit you in the face or body. Now, anyone can make deflectors for their tools, they can be bigger, different shape, added to the tool in many ways and can even be made as a "trap" for use with your dust collector. Would be a very simple job to install on the tool a trap instead a deflector, actually the affixing system can be the same. You only need a square trap 6"x 6" preferentially (maybe you can go smaller 4"x 4") , a piece of 3" light flexible hose and an adaptor to connect it to the 4" dust collector system. This is all light stuff and from the way the tool works, you can have at least 90% of the shavings being "sucked" directly into the dust collector bins. (no mess)

If you can't understand what I'm suggesting with the trap system, let me know I will make a sketch of it.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

CameronPotter
12th December 2008, 01:54 PM
A trap on a tool... Now that is a nice idea...

As for the tool, I can understand the value of fast turning, but I was more after being able to true up out of square material and being able to rough out bowl in hard woods - if it takes a little longer, then I am happy to wait - this really is only a hobby for me.

However, there have been times when I could have used a deflector/trap and I will have to keep this in mind.

Cheers

Cam

robutacion
13th December 2008, 03:12 PM
A trap on a tool... Now that is a nice idea...

As for the tool, I can understand the value of fast turning, but I was more after being able to true up out of square material and being able to rough out bowl in hard woods - if it takes a little longer, then I am happy to wait - this really is only a hobby for me.

However, there have been times when I could have used a deflector/trap and I will have to keep this in mind.

Cheers

Cam

Sorry Cameron, I think you missunderstood what I was trying to say, I wasn't thinking of fast turning as such, but the toll capability of removing timber fast. The speed you work with the tool and how much "bite" you give to the timber, is all up to you. I never liked to start with square material, just for the time it does take to just remove the corners, mainly with some hard stuff, and also how quickly the tools get blunt by doing so. For what you saying, you need the tool for, this is your best option.
I will try very quickly describe what I've done yesterday as a good example of what this tool is capable of.
I had a neighbour that brought me a piece of 4"x4"x 20" of old dry red gum ( I thing a off-cut of a fence post never used), and he wanted me to make a 2" round pasta roller (cylinder) with a handle on either end. According to him, he looked in his shed for anything that he thought could be strong and heavy enough for this kitchen tool, very common in European tradition and kitchens.

I had just finished to make (put together) my 17mm SIT (Square Insert Tool) to joint the the others, 12, 14 & 15 mm accordingly. Mounted the square block on the lathe between centres, adjust the tool rest from the right end of the piece (cut starting point), grabbed the 17mm SIT with the deflector already mounted and with the help of a very small clamp, I fitted it on the SIT as a depth stopper, after marking how far I could go to leave just a little over the 2" needed on the gum piece. With the lathe turning at 1.200 rpm, and the request for this neighbour to move back from the lathe just a little, and provide him with a set of safety glasses, I started making shavings fly like "birds". One single cut at the time, at 17mm wide (tool insert size) from the beginning of the 4" square, right to the depth stopper, back out and move another 17mm left and right in until the tool stops (hits the clamp).
It didn't take any more than 2 minutes to go from a 4" square to a 2" round, including the moving the tool rest left to turn the other half of the piece. The finish was good enough to just grab a piece of 120 grit sandpaper and smooth it up, if I didn't have to cut the handles shape on each end, for which I used the Bedan for it and also to cut a thin layer of timber on the round (cylinder) part. A little 400 grit sandpaper and a rub with a rag and some olive oil (his request), had the piece done by his specifications all in his presence. I wish you could have seen his eyes when I started using the SIT and after I stop the lathe 2 minutes later...!:oo::o:?:doh:.
Now, tell me another tool that can do this...!:;
Ok, the original only has the 15mm TCT's (Ci1), or 12mm on the Ci2, but you get my drift...!:D

I don't have a dust/shavings collector system, but the day I do, I will make a shavings trap for this tool, either attached to the tool or attached to a flexible swinging arm to keep it in the right position, (just above and a few inches behind the tool cutter end).

In either case, unless you try this tool, you will "never" understand its capabilities.:no:

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Craig Jackson
14th December 2008, 01:52 AM
Just to clear up a mis-understanding from an earlier post on this thread about tool rest over hang.

We recommend less than 25mm overhang on our Easy Roughers for INTERUPTED and HEAVY roughing. For moderate cuts, hang out all you feel comfortable with. We believe this just make good common safety sense for all turning tools.

Craig

P.S. By customer demand, we are also working on a deflector system to attach to any standard turning tool.

NeilS
14th December 2008, 11:59 AM
I don't have a dust/shavings collector system, but the day I do, I will make a shavings trap for this tool, either attached to the tool or attached to a flexible swinging arm to keep it in the right position, (just above and a few inches behind the tool cutter end).


Let us have a look at what you have done RBTCO with this if you get around to putting in a DC system.

I tried using my DC (3HP with 6" ducting) but the chips just flew right past the inlet. The DC has plenty of pulling power, has even pulled a glove off my hand!, so the DC 's sucking power wasn't the problem.

A mini-gulp type of thing mounted on the shaft, as suggested by RBTCO, may be the go, but would have to be see-through and light to be manageable. When I get the time I will have a play around with this idea.

At this stage I am not using the TC rougher for dry woods because of the fine dust it broadcasts everywhere. I have worked too hard on controlling the fine dust in my workshop to jeopardise that. So I'll have to find a workable solution before using the rougher on dry wood.

I would be very interested in any solutions that anyone else comes up with.

Neil

hughie
14th December 2008, 05:10 PM
Hi Neil,

A wood lathe would be one of the worst in tools in the world to try and catch all the dust and chips etc

Perhaps isolation is the way to go. Isolate the lathe from the rest of the workshop and evacuate the smaller area you now have. The DC may well be able to handle it at this point.

I am in the process of setting up a new workshop and this is what I am contemplating. I have a large number of the clear plastic strips used by wharehouses, food factories and the like, that they use to close the large roller door openings to birds etc but allow the forklifts easy access.

With this I am going to isolate my turning section from the rest of the workshop and fit a couple of exhaust fans to give cross flow ventilation. There still will be individual ducted extraction to each lathe, bandsaw and possibily the grinder as well.

robutacion
15th December 2008, 02:42 AM
Just to clear up a mis-understanding from an earlier post on this thread about tool rest over hang.

We recommend less than 25mm overhang on our Easy Roughers for INTERUPTED and HEAVY roughing. For moderate cuts, hang out all you feel comfortable with. We believe this just make good common safety sense for all turning tools.

Craig

P.S. By customer demand, we are also working on a deflector system to attach to any standard turning tool.

I fully accept that people should follow the specifications provided by the manufacturer, they are there for a reason, and in this case, I apologise for not making clear that my description of the way I used my SIT, was done according to my specifications and not on anyone else, including the Ci1. My 15 & 17mm SIT tool, has a 16mm HSS square shaft, a very long and strong handle, a 5 mm thick ferrule and the handle hole was drilled 1' diameter and then filled with rifle bedding compound. I feel as comfortable & save to do a 2" overhang cut with this tool, as Craig feel with his Ci1 toll at half of that depth. There are obvious differences on the construction on these 2 tools, but I am quite confident that Craig is playing too safe, I believe the tool can easily and safely support more then the 25mm overhang recommended, on deeper cuts. But then and again, there are hard rough tool operators, and others that manage to be a lot more gentle with tools, and this is well know fact!.

Neil, I've got a initial design and a list of available components to create my tool trap. Even tough, and as I said, I don't have a dust extractor system, nor I think that I will have it that soon, I will have no problems in providing here what I will be doing, and how to use it, no problems. Give me a couple of days, and I will put something together. I still believe, this tool trap, on a tool like the Ci1 or SIT, will capture 90% of the shavings, either wet or dry. The tests will determine exactly how much!

Cheers
George

NeilS
15th December 2008, 01:39 PM
Hi Neil,

A wood lathe would be one of the worst in tools in the world to try and catch all the dust and chips etc

Perhaps isolation is the way to go. Isolate the lathe from the rest of the workshop and evacuate the smaller area you now have. The DC may well be able to handle it at this point.

I am in the process of setting up a new workshop and this is what I am contemplating. I have a large number of the clear plastic strips used by wharehouses, food factories and the like, that they use to close the large roller door openings to birds etc but allow the forklifts easy access.

With this I am going to isolate my turning section from the rest of the workshop and fit a couple of exhaust fans to give cross flow ventilation. There still will be individual ducted extraction to each lathe, bandsaw and possibily the grinder as well.

Hi Hughie - Thanks for the comments and pleased to hear that you are thinking about dust control as part of your new workshop design.

Yes, lathes sure do fling stuff everywhere. I'm not fussed about the chips so much (the stuff you can see) but I always try to capture and filter as much of the very small airborne particle of wood dust that I can at source with flexible ducting. Also wear a filtered air system to avoid breathing any fine dust that does escape. I have to look after my lungs.

This arrangement has worked reasonably well with my turning techniques up until now, but the TC rougher seems to project material faster and further. If I could capture that material as it leaves the cutter I would be more confident that I was removing the very fine dust component before it loaded up the workshop air.

Neil

NeilS
15th December 2008, 01:59 PM
Neil, I've got a initial design and a list of available components to create my tool trap. Even tough, and as I said, I don't have a dust extractor system, nor I think that I will have it that soon, I will have no problems in providing here what I will be doing, and how to use it, no problems. Give me a couple of days, and I will put something together. I still believe, this tool trap, on a tool like the Ci1 or SIT, will capture 90% of the shavings, either wet or dry. The tests will determine exactly how much!


OK George, I would like to see what you come up with.

Neil

robutacion
15th December 2008, 05:15 PM
OK George, I would like to see what you come up with.

Neil

Right...! Neil,

This is a not tested yet project so, bare with me!

The components can be found in any dust extractor products supplier, in this case I've used a Timbecon magazine to describe the components selected for this project.
To resolve the issue of "visibility" of what the tools is doing, I just cut a portion of the top plastic hood, and replace it with perspex. Is important to leave some material on the sides, so that the perspex can be affixed to, using double side tape (keep it in place for screws or rivets and to seal from dust escape). Some of the bottom part of the hood can be also be replaced with perspex but, I don't believe it will be necessary.

The installation of this hood trap on the tool or in position, can be achieve by 2 ways. One is to use the hood flexible arm system to bring it to the tool, in the same place as the deflector would be. The other (better option to me) would be using the hood installation bracket, to affix it to the tool, in the same location as the deflector. This way the hood will move with the tool, making trapping of shavings and dust collection (everything that comes out of the tool tip) much more effective. I don't think that the weigh of the hood/hose/clamps(one for the hose, the other to fix it to the tool shaft), would be much of a problem, as the tool seats on the tool rest while cutting.
With this said, is always the problem of moving the tool around (before and after use) with the hose and hood attached to the tool, and to resolve this issue, the system used to keep the hood and tool shaft together (attached), can be easily made so that a quick in and out clip control that part. To make things a lot easier throughout the full process of using the tool with the trap attached, and as soon as the tool is attached to the hood in within the lathe headstock area, a simple string with a medium spring (sufficient to take the weight of tool & hood), attached to it, suspended from the ceiling just above the lathe headstock, with a hook at the end (spring can be either end of the string). Attaching the tool+hood on the hose to this "balancing" easy set up, will allow little or no strain to the hands (keeping it in place), as it would allow the release of the whole tool/hood combination, for tool rest adjustments, etc, and still staying suspended near the work area, for easy reach.
The idea of tool/hood/hose balancing, is very much the spring system that the shearers use in our days all around Australian sheds to support their back. The tool suspension part of this, is also a common practise in many working bench areas where air tools are used and suspended by "balancers" just above the bench working area, and of easy reach and release from the operator(s).

The hood in the pic I used to demonstrate the idea, seems to have the right depth, and maybe the right shape, mounted close as possible to the tool tip, wouldn't be much that this hood would miss, there is, if is enough power behind the extractor motor. The other one circle in red on pic 3, would be my next option. On pic 1&2, you can see the temporary deflector I'm using, even then, 70% or more of the shavings hit that small perspex screen (2 3/4"x 3").

Another thing that I would recommend, is for not putting any "mesh" type material at the throat of the hood, as this would decrease the "sucking" capabilities of the hood, when it get hit with lots of material all at the same time.

I hope this information, is sufficient for you to try to built such "apparatus" yourself, and give it a try. From where I stand, and until proof otherwise, I'm confident that it will work well!:D

If you have any questions, just ask...!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

NeilS
16th December 2008, 11:37 PM
Right...! Neil,

This is a not tested yet project so, bare with me!

...snip....

I hope this information, is sufficient for you to try to built such "apparatus" yourself, and give it a try. From where I stand, and until proof otherwise, I'm confident that it will work well!:D

If you have any questions, just ask...!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

That all looks and sounds good to me George. The suspension idea definitely seems worth tying. I'll give it a go (probably not this week as I'm still completing the Xmas stuff) and let you know how it performs.

Many thanks for all your thinking on that.

Regards

Neil

hughie
17th December 2008, 12:42 AM
[This arrangement has worked reasonably well with my turning techniques up until now, but the TC rougher seems to project material faster and further. If I could capture that material as it leaves the cutter I would be more confident that I was removing the very fine dust component before it loaded up the workshop air.



Neil,

On one of the English sites I saw a system that use a fan above the head of the turner to direct the dust etc toward the dust scoop.
But then, if you have the yard space you could do what Richard Raffan has done. He has a large fan in the wall at ground level that sucks everything to the out side world. Its around 1m in dia, but I guess you dont want to many neighbours close at hand

RETIRED
17th December 2008, 12:58 AM
Like this?

robutacion
17th December 2008, 03:30 PM
Like this?

Hi ,

I've been thinking in getting one of those, where did you got it from, and how much did it cost?

Cheers
RBTCO

RETIRED
17th December 2008, 03:56 PM
Woodworking warehouse. http://165.228.72.165/webshop/EWWCatalog.csp?Category=Woodworking_Accessories&ID=ECM||118515 (http://165.228.72.165/webshop/EWWCatalog.csp?Category=Woodworking_Accessories&ID=ECM%7C%7C118515)

NeilS
17th December 2008, 09:10 PM
Big exhaust fans quickly push the air (and air borne dust) out of a workshop to be just as quickly replaced with fresh clean air from outside. But just a bit too fresh for me during the long cold winter months up here in the Adelaide Hills, so I have to recycle the workshop air through filters to preserve some comfort in the workshop. The reverse applies during our short but quite hot summers, got to 39.7c outside my workshop this last record breaking summer.

If I lived in a more moderate climate I would definitely go for the exhaust fan solution, or at least exhaust my cyclone outside.

Neil

hughie
18th December 2008, 12:18 AM
If I lived in a more moderate climate I would definitely go for the exhaust fan solution, or at least exhaust my cyclone outside.


Neil,

heres a simple but effective and low run cost method of adding cool air to your workshop.



How its done is the you bury piping as big a diameter you can afford in the groung at least 3' or 1m deep and pipe your air through this. At this depth you can expect the ground temps to be at least 10' cooler than ambient. I am looking at doing this in my new shed.

robutacion
18th December 2008, 01:31 AM
Woodworking warehouse. http://165.228.72.165/webshop/EWWCatalog.csp?Category=Woodworking_Accessories&ID=ECM||118515

Thanks ,
I seem to have troubles opening that link tough!:?

Cheers
RBTCO

DJ’s Timber
18th December 2008, 09:15 AM
Thanks ,
I seem to have troubles opening that link tough!:?

Cheers
RBTCO

For some reason, Woodworking Warehouse links don't like opening on selected pages, had this in another thread too.

Got to their home page here (http://165.228.72.165/webshop/EWWHome.csp) first, then scroll down, click on Woodworking Accessories and then select Fans from the list.

Groggy
18th December 2008, 09:33 AM
Looks like an 'expiring link' website. We just had one of our major linked sites go to expiring links from a database driven website without telling anyone. Couple of thousand links died overnight :~

robutacion
18th December 2008, 04:08 PM
For some reason, Woodworking Warehouse links don't like opening on selected pages, had this in another thread too.

Got to their home page here (http://165.228.72.165/webshop/EWWHome.csp) first, then scroll down, click on Woodworking Accessories and then select Fans from the list.

Thanks DJ, I got it...!

Ouch...expensive little bugger, huh? it does appear that can move some air around tough...!

Another one for the whishing list...!:doh:

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

NeilS
18th December 2008, 11:01 PM
Neil, heres a simple but effective and low run cost method of adding cool air to your workshop.

How its done is the you bury piping as big a diameter you can afford in the groung at least 3' or 1m deep and pipe your air through this. At this depth you can expect the ground temps to be at least 10' cooler than ambient. I am looking at doing this in my new shed.

Hughie....snap!

Had that one on my list. Earth tubes are also supposed to work in reverse during winter, where the ground is up to 10c warmer than ambient.

In fact, if I can I get approval, and can afford it, I have decided to put the workshop itself underground (on a steep slope so will still have a full wall of windows facing Nth). Passive energy is not the main reason I'm going underground, but would be an added bonus.

Thanks for the suggestion

Neil

hughie
19th December 2008, 12:26 AM
In fact, if I can I get approval, and can afford it, I have decided to put the workshop itself underground (on a steep slope so will still have a full wall of windows facing Nth). Passive energy is not the main reason I'm going underground, but would be an added bonus.

Thats definitley the way to go, my land is very flat....:C so earth tubes it is for me