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TTIT
1st December 2008, 10:33 PM
Inherited a commission from a fellow clubbie who can't find time to do it. As soon as he showed me the 'template' (pictured) I near puked and said that the first thing to go is the big foot, only to be informed that it was the one stipulation by the client. Apparently used out bush and the big foot stops it tipping when she's refilled it too many times! :o:;
My dilemma is now that I don't think I can stand anything shaped like that coming out of my shed - let alone 6 of 'em:C. Having only turned 3 goblets before, I'm looking for suggestions etc regarding.....
1. Any way of making it look better while keeping the base that size?
2. Is it OK to change the clients plans because of your own tastes (and pigheadedness) ?
3. What food-safe finish for the inside can I get in small quantities (unlikely to need any more after this)?

Dimension are 145 high, base 86mm, bowl 76mm. Inside shows she likes a red!

RETIRED
1st December 2008, 11:12 PM
Inherited a commission from a fellow clubbie who can't find time to do it. As soon as he showed me the 'template' (pictured) I near puked and said that the first thing to go is the big foot, only to be informed that it was the one stipulation by the client. They are always right, sometimes.Apparently used out bush and the big foot stops it tipping when she's refilled it too many times! :o:;
My dilemma is now that I don't think I can stand anything shaped like that coming out of my shed - let alone 6 of 'em:C.Think of the money. Mercenary but true. I know too many fine artists that are broke because they inflict their art on the populace instead of doing the odd job they hate.. Having only turned 3 goblets before, I'm looking for suggestions etc regarding.....
1. Any way of making it look better while keeping the base that size? Yep. Move the bead up to the top of the stem so that the "cup" comes down on to that. Waist the stem a little more and make it thinner. Bulk up the cup at the bottom and make it rounder into the bead.
2. Is it OK to change the clients plans because of your own tastes (and pigheadedness) ?No, not without consultation. I have to do some things I hate but I like to eat. Great jobs have a habit of coming from stuff you hate.
3. What food-safe finish for the inside can I get in small quantities (unlikely to need any more after this)?Rustins Plastic is all I can think of.

Dimension are 145 high, base 86mm, bowl 76mm. Inside shows she likes a red!Have fun.

joe greiner
1st December 2008, 11:16 PM
What he said.
Work is the curse of the drinking class.:wink:

Joe

Rippa
1st December 2008, 11:41 PM
My boss told me the customer is always RIGHT :D

Rippa

artme
2nd December 2008, 03:40 AM
Ugly and functional is the new beautiful.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

aak
2nd December 2008, 07:35 AM
Inherited a commission from a fellow clubbie who can't find time to do it. As soon as he showed me the 'template' (pictured) I near puked and said that the first thing to go is the big foot, only to be informed that it was the one stipulation by the client. Apparently used out bush and the big foot stops it tipping when she's refilled it too many times! :o:;
My dilemma is now that I don't think I can stand anything shaped like that coming out of my shed - let alone 6 of 'em:C. Having only turned 3 goblets before, I'm looking for suggestions etc regarding.....
1. Any way of making it look better while keeping the base that size?
2. Is it OK to change the clients plans because of your own tastes (and pigheadedness) ?
3. What food-safe finish for the inside can I get in small quantities (unlikely to need any more after this)?

Dimension are 145 high, base 86mm, bowl 76mm. Inside shows she likes a red!


Hi TTIT,

I hope for your sake that your client is not reading this thread. Clients are always right, especially when they wrong.

I am retired now, but if and when I was not comfortable to do a job, I did not take it. However, to be in this position you have to have enough other paying work. Early on I did not have the luxury to choose, so I just used to bite my tounge and get on with it. You are the best judge of your own situation. Best of luck.

Andy

Rum Pig
2nd December 2008, 08:40 AM
:wts:

Just make sure there is enough money in it to buy a bottle of rum so you can have a good drink after.

hughie
2nd December 2008, 09:06 AM
yeah well, I suppose it depends on how much they are going to pay. :U this may compensate for the other difficulties. :C

chrisb691
2nd December 2008, 09:45 AM
It's a commision...make what the customer wants. Not everyone has, or is required to have, the same taste as you.

texx
2nd December 2008, 09:47 AM
it's in the eye of the beholder ya know .
personally i dont find that item all that ugly , i would call it robust as opposed to dainty .
you could make 2 samples hers and yours and ask the customer for their opinion .

NeilS
2nd December 2008, 11:00 AM
An elegant three legged goblet could be a solution and functionally would be more stable on uneven ground than the sample.

Neil

Manuka Jock
2nd December 2008, 11:12 AM
Just turn the things mate .
Make the ugliest ugly goblets on the planet .
Once finished you never have to see them again .........
'cept for the pics you post here for us to admire :D

rsser
2nd December 2008, 11:16 AM
<style>.wysiwyg { PADDING-RIGHT: PADDING- BACKGROUND: #e6d8ae; PADDING-BOTTOM: MARGIN: 5px 10px 1 FONT: 10pt arial, verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #000000; PADDING- 0px } .wysiwyg A:link { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg_alink { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg A:visited { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg_avisited { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg A:hover { COLOR: #ff4400 } .wysiwyg A:active { COLOR: #ff4400 } .wysiwyg_ahover { COLOR: #ff4400 } P { MARGIN: 0px } .inlineimg { VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle } </style>A friend of mine who does consulting doubles her fee when offered a job she can do but would prefer not to. Amazing how often the client agrees, and she gets her premium for work dissatisfaction.

Texian
2nd December 2008, 11:29 AM
Suggest that you make them exactly as the client requested, with the best possible workmanship you can manage. You will feel good about the quality of your workmanship and your client will feel good about the design.

WOODbTURNER
2nd December 2008, 11:30 AM
I suppose it will look great to the user after a few refills!

marter1229
2nd December 2008, 11:55 AM
You should make 7.
And use the extra for the Rum:2tsup:

tea lady
2nd December 2008, 01:14 PM
I'm with . You can muck around with the proportions quite a bit within those measurements. They could also be that design because the last guy turned them that way and that's what they know so that's what they like. I'd do a few scetches and a sample maybe, of an alternative. I'f they are adiment just grit your teeth and think of the money.

BTW, a teacher, when I was studying ceramics, gave us the asignment of making an object that we absolutely hated. Every detail had to be considered, and the worst one chosen. Ugliest form, weirdest colour, etc. Of course, after all that effort you end up with something ugly that you absolutely love, like a bull dog.:D Maybe because we HAD considered every detail we ended up with a very good piece.:rolleyes: ......could be a idea for the next forum challenge.:cool::2tsup:

TTIT
2nd December 2008, 01:15 PM
Thanks for all the advice guy's (and TL) :2tsup: Concensus seems to be with the clients wishes so I'll make them "much the same". Should be able to sneak the base diameter down to the same diameter as the cup without her noticing :B

IDEA!!! Whoever made it actually left a recess in the base from chucking it (strange way to do a goblet eh!). Reckon I'd get away with remounting it, turning down the base to the same diameter as the cup and telling her it was always that size???:U

Ed Reiss
2nd December 2008, 01:46 PM
Getting in late on this one TTIT.

By all means do what the customer wants....don't dick around with the design, might come back and bite you on the a** if you do.:doh:

Good luck, mate!

CameronPotter
3rd December 2008, 07:49 AM
Seconding 's design comments...

I made a goblet that had similar specs:

I wanted it to be alcohol safe
I wanted it to be sturdy
I wanted it to be pretty (it was a wedding cup) - it had two floating rings on it.

I personally don't have a problem with a big foot on a cup, but this can be mitigated with a thinner foot, a thinner stem and beads up near the cup to draw your eye there, finally the cup can be reshaped a bit to take attention from the bottom-heavy-ness.

Cheers

Cam

Skew ChiDAMN!!
3rd December 2008, 03:13 PM
There's nothing wrong with a wide foot; if you look closely at antique goblets they all had large feet. Smaller feet didn't become popular until mid-Victorian times (I think) and it's one of the methods of dating 'em.

Given that "the big foot stops it tipping when she's refilled it too many times" I imagine that it also needs the thick stem. :rolleyes:

As the stem is also so short, if you moved the bead up to the base of the bowl then you're left with the decision of "what to do with the rest of the stem?" Another bead at the junction of the foot would look too cluttered... (purely IMHO) and smoothly curving it into the foot would have the effect of making the foot look even chunkier.

Glad it's not my decision. :p

I would modify the bowl so the bottom is rounder, a more "full" shape. A la a brandy snifter. That would not only improve the form but would lower the centre of gravity, making it even more stable.

It'd also mean the stem becomes less visually important and you could get away without the bead at all, or turning it into a more subtle detail.

CameronPotter
3rd December 2008, 03:23 PM
I dunno... That is a pretty chunky stem. I think that it could be thinned a little and still be strong.

As for the bowl of the cup - I also notice that the base of the cup is wider than the mouth... This adds a feeling of bottom-heaviness to it. Maybe going for straighter sides might also change the look a bit.

Cheers

Cam

Grumpy John
3rd December 2008, 05:57 PM
I have never turned a goblet, but I admire those who can/do especially the really thin stemmed ones. Anyway I suppose one on the determining factors in the overall finished design is the amount of wall thickness in the "bowl" section. If the bowl is already pretty thin it limits the re-shaping that can be done. That's my two cents worth and that's about all it's worth :D.

crow400
4th December 2008, 06:57 PM
I like to drink from anything that doesn't leak. The only goblet I have made to date leaks - it's not the mess, it's the waste.
Bruce

cadeuceus
4th December 2008, 10:08 PM
Perhaps to be the dissenting voice regarding clients wishes.

I agree that the clients wish is the correct choice and that the object being made is to anothers taste and idea of beauty - however I also feel that it is appropriate for a wood worker to discuss their conceptual issues with the client to ensure that it is in fact a considered opinion and not just (as someone else said) the way the previous guy happened to do it.

I arrive at this dissenting opinion for several reasons. Perhaps there is a functional reason for a design idea or perhaps it is simply a decision born from misinformation or lack of design awareness.Perhaps the client is not aware of structural problems inherent in their design.Perhaps they have not considered other alternatives or seen that the design is flawed.

I have been guilty in the past of trying to change a clients design (and apologised to him when I realised that I was trying to build his item to my ideas) but from that discussion came a hybrid of the two approaches which worked out better in the long run for the client.

I am not a professional turner and would not be able to turn out one of these goblets let alone three of them, but I do make stuff and with that comes an awareness of what works / doesn't work and what other options may exist.

For example, I make dolls beds and dolls cots (amongst other toys) and was recently presented with an order for a specific dolls bed that I could see would be too skinny in width for the length requested to look in proportion. When I discussed the issue with the client, she realised that she had read the measurements wrong and if it wasn't for my considered opinion that the proportion was screwy, I would have invested time and effort in an item that I would have had to redo.

I am not saying to throw out the clients desire for your own idea, but perhaps it is the role of the professional to give guidance and information to the client. Also, I teach anatomy in my normal job, and there is a rule in anatomy that "form follows function follows form". Or in other words the structure of a thing is affected by its function which is affected by its structure.

Just a thought

regulated
6th December 2008, 04:26 PM
What's the saying, beauty is in the eye of the person who pays for it :D.

On the second part of your question about a food safe finish which I don't think has been answered yet I asked ubeaut this and they said shellawax. Leave it for atleast three weeks after applying to allow it to be set properly, wah it with some water and your set to go. Waterproof, food safe and resistant to alcohol.

BJ

TTIT
6th December 2008, 11:21 PM
What's the saying, beauty is in the eye of the person who pays for it :D. I like that - sums it up nicely - reckon that's the way I'll go with it (but I won't sign them:no:)


On the second part of your question about a food safe finish which I don't think has been answered yet I asked ubeaut this and they said shellawax. Leave it for atleast three weeks after applying to allow it to be set properly, wah it with some water and your set to go. Right under my nose the whole time :doh: Already got plenty of the good stuff too.

...... and resistant to alcohol.Unlike most woodies I know :U

CameronPotter
7th December 2008, 09:39 AM
I have heard that Shellawax works - I personally love the stuff - but for a goblet that will be seeing frequent use I would prefer something a bit thicker and more plasticky.

What I have done in the past is finish the inside and outside with several coats of Shellawax - then get some fresh water-based polyU and pour in into the cup. Run it around to get a nice thick, even coat, then hang upside down to let the waste polyU drip out - this is quite a wasteful way to do it, but it ends up with a very even coat and it can be as thick as you have the patience to keep on repeating the process.

When I first tried it - it was just a concept that I hoped would work - after 4 coats this way I had a very thick polyU lining on the inside of a beautifully finished cup (even if I do say so myself) - and I was very relieved. :-

Cam

oldiephred
7th December 2008, 10:01 AM
Is it right to assume that everyone loves all aspects of everything you design and make? If that is the case then use your own design, lose a friend and , allow the person who wants them to be PO'd at him for not doing what he aparently promised then, if necessary, you can easily sell them to someone else.
Personally, I don't think the requested design is too bad.

TTIT
8th December 2008, 12:42 AM
.................- after 4 coats this way I had a very thick polyU lining on the inside of a beautifully finished cup (even if I do say so myself) - and I was very relieved. :-Reckon it will stand the test of time Cam??? I've seen poly peel off pine after 5 or 6 years - wondering if the wax underneath it might allow it to lift later on :shrug:


Is it right to assume that everyone loves all aspects of everything you design and make? If that is the case then use your own design, lose a friend and , allow the person who wants them to be PO'd at him for not doing what he aparently promised then, if necessary, you can easily sell them to someone else.
Personally, I don't think the requested design is too bad.:o Once my blood pressure subsided, I realised you had a valid point Phred. It's a view of the situation I certainly hadn't fully considered and it reinforces my earlier response to Regulated.
........
..........
..........must be gettin' too big for me boots 'cos it still feels like asking Vivaldi to write country music or Schumacher to race in a Mr Whippy van - just not cricket :~

CameronPotter
8th December 2008, 08:24 AM
Damn! I certainly hope that the PolyU doesn't peel off... :doh:

Unfortunately as it is only a year old I can't make judgement on that.

Cam

Rum Pig
8th December 2008, 08:57 AM
I use Rustin's plastic (i think that is how you say it) light coats sanded in between and when I have about 4 coats I polish with EEE. I cover the whole goblet, you do get that plastic look but at least you know it will stand the test of time:)

tea lady
8th December 2008, 09:07 AM
..........must be gettin' too big for me boots 'cos it still feels like asking Vivaldi to write country music or Schumacher to race in a Mr Whippy van - just not cricket :~

Mr Whippy van races? Now that would be cool.:D

Is the client aware of what your other work looks like? I think offering her an alternative would be OK. But in sketch form. Or just do one. But if she really is adamant then I guess.....:shrug: she's payin'.

TTIT
3rd February 2009, 11:53 PM
Well I finally got the damn goblets done.:B Kept the same basic proportions while making it more appealing to my eye at least. Actually pretty happy with the final shape :shrug: - slightly shorter overall (150mm) but with greater volume due to the thinner (2-3mm) walls.
All are finished with 3 coats of Shellawax inside and a couple of coats of wipe-on poly outside which was rubbed back with EEE and buffed with Ubeaut Traditional wax.
Left to right.... Emu Apple, Tipuana, Mulberry, Ash, Sally wattle and Cypress.
Now the acid test to see what the client thinks of them :C

Comments/critique welcome.

powderpost
4th February 2009, 12:02 AM
They look pretty good to me Vern.
Jim

Ed Reiss
4th February 2009, 12:22 AM
Much better than the original, Vern.

You've got a good eye for design & proportion.:2tsup:

Texian
4th February 2009, 05:26 AM
Those are nice! Simple and/but elegant design. Often the "simple" design is the most difficult to make look good like these.

CameronPotter
4th February 2009, 10:05 AM
Yep. I am definitely in favour of your "interpretation".

:2tsup:

rsser
4th February 2009, 11:46 AM
Nice work Vern.

But the ones on the outside look a little drunk already ;-}

Manuka Jock
4th February 2009, 12:19 PM
Looking good TT ,
I reckon you satisfied all criteria admirably .

:2tsup:

Skew ChiDAMN!!
4th February 2009, 04:31 PM
Now the acid test to see what the client thinks of them :C

Much, much better! More pleasing to my eye anyway. :2tsup: (And what's the betting that they won't pick the differences until you point 'em out?)

The only quibble (not a criticism, just a quibble :wink:) that I have is that I think the lines would flow that little bit more smoothly if you'd mirrored the bottom of the bowl as the foot, moving the bead down a bit, to the "axis of reflection." As it is, the transition from the stem to foot is a tad awkward. Nevertheless, I'd be proud of 'em if they'd come off my lathe. Nice. Damned nice. :D

Oh... and I'd have recommended Rustin's Plastic Coating on the inside (one coat is enough) and Shellawax on the outside, but that's more my personal preference than anything.

TTIT
4th February 2009, 06:02 PM
Thanks for all the comments guy's - should be able to raise the price based on those recommendations :U

Nice work Vern.

But the ones on the outside look a little drunk already ;-}Sticks out doesn't it! My light tent sits on a bed and it turns out the board under the backdrop sheet has a bow in it - doesn't effect single pieces :shrug:


...........The only quibble (not a criticism, just a quibble :wink:) that I have is that I think the lines would flow that little bit more smoothly if you'd mirrored the bottom of the bowl as the foot, moving the bead down a bit, to the "axis of reflection." As it is, the transition from the stem to foot is a tad awkward. Nevertheless, I'd be proud of 'em if they'd come off my lathe. Nice. Damned nice. :DAgreed - only became obvious to me while I was cutting out the cereal packet template from the 'prototype' but decided to stick with it anyway as the 'prototype' still worked for me. Glad you like 'em Skew :2tsup:


Oh... and I'd have recommended Rustin's Plastic Coating on the inside (one coat is enough) and Shellawax on the outside, but that's more my personal preference than anything.Actually tried Shellawax on the outside of the 1st one (Mulberry) and couldn't stop it leaving 'ribs' for the life of me so I gave up.:C I've never seen the Rustins stuff for the inside but will have a look for some next time I'm in the big-smoke.

dai sensei
4th February 2009, 08:28 PM
Look great Vern :2tsup:


My light tent sits on a bed and it turns out the board under the backdrop sheet has a bow in it - doesn't effect single pieces :shrug:


My tent shots did something similar to my arty bowl legs, I thought it was more about the camera than the tent.

robutacion
5th February 2009, 01:01 AM
Well I finally got the damn goblets done.:B Kept the same basic proportions while making it more appealing to my eye at least. Actually pretty happy with the final shape :shrug: - slightly shorter overall (150mm) but with greater volume due to the thinner (2-3mm) walls.
All are finished with 3 coats of Shellawax inside and a couple of coats of wipe-on poly outside which was rubbed back with EEE and buffed with Ubeaut Traditional wax.
Left to right.... Emu Apple, Tipuana, Mulberry, Ash, Sally wattle and Cypress.
Now the acid test to see what the client thinks of them :C

Comments/critique welcome.

Hey, as far as I'm concern, you done a good job with the "alterations" and with the fact that they all look very similar in shape, not as easy to do as some would think but, the more important fact and improvement, and I'm surprised and disappointed that no one else has comment on it, is the "EXTRA VOLUME" yeah... how could you have missed it...?:no::D

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Anne Munro
5th February 2009, 08:53 PM
About the best food safe finishing oil I know is walnut oil. It is more expensive than your basic oils and you will get it at the health food shop. Keep it in the fridge after it has been opened.

TTIT
9th February 2009, 11:51 PM
The bloke the goblet commission was originally given to gave them to the client today and she was pretty happy with them apparently - so much so that happily forked out 50% more than I had suggested I would like for them :2tsup: Might put him on the payroll as my salesman. Must be time for a new tool - and maybe a slab - or two :U