Drying green blanks

[bellyup]

Hi All,
A couple of quick questions that someone may be able to help with:

1. When I rough turn green bowls and put them aside to dry, they seem to dry out too fast as the wood distorts or starts to show feather cracks with in the first 24 hrs or so.
Broken Hill is hot and dry at this time of year - do you think if I put them in a plastic storage box with the lid on they might age better or, would I be better off keeping the uncut billets/blanks and leaving it for a suitable period of time coated with wax/paint.
2. What exactly is "mineral oil"?
3. Where might I buy the wax stuff that is used on blanks?
Thanks for your help,
Bruce.

[Willy Nelson]

Hello Bruce
There are heaps of methods to slow dry or fast dry wood, it depends on what types of timbers, where you live, what you are prepared to do.
1. I sometimes turn them green (add 10% extra wood for truing up later), then coat the rim and end grain with end grain sealer, or molten wax. Oh, and write the date or weight on the wood before sealing
2. Wet sheoak can be turned to the final dimension, then apply metho (a small amount) to the whole surface, ensure the area is clear of flammable materials, ensure you have the phone handy for the fire brigade and ambos. Then set the bowl alight and slowly spin by hand (NOT under power). Do this at least 5 times. The metho draws out the water and the heat helps. Do this until the wood is dry then sand and finish as usual. I like this method as it is quick and easy. (Also, I like to invite the kids out to the 'studio' and watch Dad set fire to his creations)
3. Place in a microwave for a minute or two, ensure the wood doesn't burn. Also get permission from SWMBO. Weigh the wood and let it cool. Do this until the weight stays the same.
4. I know of a guy who immerses the whole item in a vat of water for a few months (??)
5. Some people used to use PEG, but it costs money etc and may be an expensive proposition.
6. Turn the bowl, then place it in a paper bag with a heap of the shavings you just created, or simply bury it under the shavings in your garage to prevent massive water loss.

No doubt other forum members will contribute as there are endless ways of drying wood
Hope this helps
Regards
Willy

[bellyup]

Hi Willy,
Thanks for the tips!
I like the idea of the paper bag and shavings - I can do that, the others sound pretty adventurous!! How do you turn a flaming bowl by hand - asbestos gloves??:U
Bruce.

[steck]

HI BRUCE,
One method I have found pretty successful is to rough turn the green wood, then I soak it in a sealed tub of Metho overnight. I then wrap it in paper to dry but allowing some air to get into the middle of the bowl. The theory is that it will dry slightly faster on the inside surface and contract, therefore reducing any splitting.
I know a bloke who has great success by turning his bowls green, quite thin, then freezing them for a few days and then putting them in the fridge to dry out. My fridge is fan-forced and tends to dry them too quickly and they split.:~
To coat the bowl blanks, I bought some beeswax on ebay which I use for dipping green bowl blanks. I bought 2 kgs which I heat up in an old electric Frypan. It will do a lot of blanks!:U
Candle making shops will sell paraffin wax which is what most people use.
Here is one online candle making supplier:
http://candlemaking.com.au/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=28&Itemid=26
ANd this one is cheaper:
http://www.stacksofwax.com.au/materials.htm


From my experience, if you put the green wood in a plastic tub you can get some nasty mould occuring. I ruined some light coloured timbers getting blue stain mould this way.:no:

I have found that paint is okay only as a short term method for protecting timber.
Good Luck!

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

1. When I rough turn green bowls and put them aside to dry, they seem to dry out too fast as the wood distorts or starts to show feather cracks with in the first 24 hrs or so.
Broken Hill is hot and dry at this time of year - do you think if I put them in a plastic storage box with the lid on they might age better or, would I be better off keeping the uncut billets/blanks and leaving it for a suitable period of time coated with wax/paint.

One method is to pack the rough-turned bowl into a plastic-lined cardboard box (a gar-bag does nicely) surrounded by it's own shavings. I used to do this, with some success, although sometimes it also started unwanted spalting. Then I realised I may as well just slather it all over with end-grain sealer, which is way more effective. :rolleyes:

(I don't mean NC sealer as used for finishing, I mean wax, paint, mobilcer or whatever you use to minimise checking on the ends of blanks. :wink:)

After all, it's only rough turned and is going to be remounted for further turning later on down the line... so why not treat it the same as sealing any other blank? 'Cept all over?


2. What exactly is "mineral oil"?

Paraffin oil. :)


3. Where might I buy the wax stuff that is used on blanks?

Good ol' ordinary, everyday beeswax is fine and should be easily obtainable. Paraffin wax (for candles) is a bit more expensive but not really any more effective and carnauba wax is, IMHO, better used elsewhere.

Personally I prefer to use Mobilcer-C, a commercial sealer, but that's pretty expensive so I go shares with a few mates in a 20L drum. At a stretch you can even dissolve polystyrene in turps and use the resultant goop as a sealer, although I've found that it does tend to discolour the first mm or so of the timber surface. :shrug:

[bellyup]

Wow,
Thanks guys, great ideas - I'll give them all a go and see what works best out here.

P.S. saw a good bumper sticker on an old cocky's truck today - " Honk now if you have never seen an Uzi fired from a moving vehicle":p

[bellyup]

Hey Skew/ guys,
On reflection - I thought Parrafin oil was Kerosene? No?
I have just bought some bees wax on ebay - should it be applied all over the timber or only on certain faces??
Thanks.

[steck]

Hi again Bruce.
I cut my turning blank round on a bandsaw and then dip each side and the edge into the melted beeswax.
If you don't have a bandsaw you can just wax every side of the piece of wood.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

On reflection - I thought Parrafin oil was Kerosene? No?


It's a by-product of making kero. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil) has the low-down. :)


I have just bought some bees wax on ebay - should it be applied all over the timber or only on certain faces??

Only the end-grain needs to be sealed, but a roughed bowl is almost all end-grain... :wink:

[hughie]

I have used some very cheap acrylic paint from Bunnies ie $14 per 4litres and mixed about 250ml of cheap PVA glue also from Bunnies.

This is working quite well on some Silky Oak logs, only one split open as it copped a fair bit of sun one day :C But it did split right down the middle for me :2tsup:

Styrene foam and turps used to use it allot until Bunnies started playing with the formula. Last lot would not melt the polystyrene :~ But in the past it has worked well on several Mulberry logs, no splits and even with some small burls as well around the logs.

[Willy Nelson]

The majority of sealing I do is using an old electric frypan and wax. I do not buy it, but plenty of people keep their old candles for me (stubs, ends or unwanted candles). Now, I must admit, that the smell of all these aromatherapy candles being rendered down makes my workshop smell nice and keeps me calm :U
Regards
Willy

[mobjack68]

Read recently about a turner that uses isopropyl alcohol. Pours several liters in a plastic tub, immerses the turned piece in for a day or two. The alcohol combines chemically with the water and displaces the moisture. If the alcohol tub remains covered you can use the alcohol for awhile. It will get funky, still works. As soon as I get my lathe uncovered, I gotta try this way....if anyone else gives it a shot???post results??

[old pete]

Hi There,

It may be mission impossible to use green turning techniques in Broken Hill except in mid winter. The key is to limit air movement past your green turned stock and to keep humidity up. Try storing your bowls in containers in the green turning shavings that you have just produced and leave them alone for 6 or 7 weeks.

Unequal distortion during drying is normal because radial shrinkage is characteristically half that of tangential shrinkage. Its just a matter of leaving enough wall thickness to recover the bowl when its dry. Here in Tassie with our species a green 25mm wall thickness is usually plenty.

The material you see coating bowl blanks in the shops is simple paraffin wax. You can buy it by the bag lot of about 20 kg by ordering from your petroleum agent. That quantity costs about A$75 and that amount will do you for many years. Don't do any coating indoors:no::no::no: as it could be a little hazardous. Use an old electric fry pan from the tip shop to heat the wax to a suitable temperature usually well below smoke point.

Old Pete Tasmania

[bellyup]

Again, thank-you guys for your valuable advice.
Thanks Skew - Wikopedia tells me mineral oil is essentially baby oil ???, where would I buy plain mineral oil or would baby oil be ok to use on timber?
Bruce.

[Little Festo]

Hello Bruce,

Lots of good advice. I have used a few methods. I paint the roughs with a mobilseal type product. On some timbers I use two coats. I leave the roughs out for 3-5 days for the sealer to dry.

I have started putting some in the freezer for 2-3 days to speed up drying (also kills any borers). Then for a week or so in the fridge. I only do this for pieces I wish to speed up the drying.

I then put the painted blanks in paper bags. I have found that during winter when the humidity drops, or on some hot days in summer cracking can/will still occur. The roughs are left for at least 3-6 months - depending on size. I'm lucky as I have an old 10,000 gallon tank I've converted into my wood storage "container", it's connected to my workshop with a door for easy access. It has a "whirly-bird" in the roof to stop any mold from forming, a problem I used to have. It's cool and dry so any cool dry place will do.

I used to use plastic bags but the problem with that was mold would form, also drying was inhibited because moisture was trapped. It can give some nice spaulting on some timbers (Mango, small leafed Fig, Black Wattle sap wood, Jacaranda) on some others it was a pretty awful grayish colour. You'll need to experiment and keep an eye on it.

Some Timbers microwave really well - Gmelina, Mango, Bunya Pine, Red Cedar. I paint these with sealer too. I use an old superseeded Microwave - luckily a large one. Again you need to keep an eye on each piece. I weigh them to keep track of weight loss. A medium sized bowl will get about 1 to 1.5 minutes on full - your microwave will determine this depending on the output. The rough should be "hottish" but be carefull as you can burn the piece - from the inside. The sealer will almost be absorbed by the wood (not too deep though and in easily removed when returning later). You know it's "done" when fine cracks start to appear. It's better to err on cautious side re the heat and time. You should wait untill the wood has cooled before re- microwaving.

I have heard that boiling is good, if you do a google on this there is a bit of info on this on the web, also soaking in detergent. I tried the soap but it still get quite a lot of cracking so don't use it too much.

I actully had shellac sanding sealer induce cracking , particularly on Bunya and Hoop Pine, anyone else had this happen to them??


Bruce, I hope this is of some use, just a few things that have worked for me - Peter.

[rsser]

Lots of good advice here Bruce.

You also need to take into account the timber species as Peter has in one respect.

Some will warp and check pretty much regardless of what you do.

Just to add some local observations, and these are re Melb where it's not as hot or dry generally compared to where you are ...

1. Coat a bowl blank all over with paraffin wax and it's good to turn after 2-3 years ... even with unstable wood like Tassie Myrtle.

2. With unstable timbers like Silky Oak, Osage Orange or Casuarinas, rough em and then seal all over with paraffin wax.

3. With more stable timbers, rough em and use paint-on end-grain sealer on the end grain alone as Skew describes. You can buy it mail-order by the litre from www.thewoodsmith.com.au (http://www.thewoodsmith.com.au)

4. If you do a lot of roughed out bowls, drop them into a cardboard box and rotate and check from time to time. This is Raffan's method. Up your way I'd add a generous load of shavings as well and put a sheet of plakky over the top.

Whatever you do by way of passive methods, check them regularly. If you see shakes, splits or checks, wrap the offender in a plakky bag for a couple of weeks or else coat all round in wax.

Good luck!

[Robomanic]

In this post they steam the blanks for ~30min IIRC. Would be an extension to the boiling idea I guess.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=82040&highlight=bowl+made+easy

I would like to try it myself and have made sideways looks at the barbe. Damn suburbia I live in these days. Maybe a steam tent.

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

There are most certainly, a large number of ways/techniques/methods/products to assist with the drying of green timbers, and as some of the forumates have already indicated, different timbers react in different ways to the same method/product technique. I believe, what makes effectiveness to be so difficult to achieve is the variations of temperatures, humidity, wind chill, wind speed, etc., in between the highest and the lowest, that the same piece of wood is submitted to, mainly from the moment the tree is cut. To make things even worse, is the fact that we all want/need good quality, stable timbers, without the expense and the WAIT...!:doh:. Some of the best timbers come from a selected number of tree species, and will take many years of naturally but controlled drying environments. I'm as guilt as anyone else, try to produce quality pieces out of timber species that are extremely difficult to control, is not always a choice, but rather a need. Most of the timbers easily available to most of us, are not the best raw material to work with, and the reason why the results of drying and preserving blanks are so many times, disappointing. On the other hand, those same timbers, are capable of producing the most spectacular results, even if the finished product is not going to last a life time! One only has to look at the most common and sourced timbers for turning/carving, etc., by people all around the word, to come to the conclusion that, top quality timbers and perfectly stable are indeed available, but at a cost that most of us wouldn't even dream of.
I can understand why most people need to preserve all the timbers they get their hands on, just by the simple fact that, gathering timbers, can be a very difficult task for a lot of people. On the other side of the spectrum, is people like myself with the facility (so far) to cut and/or gather lots of timber, but finding difficult to find top quality timbers, making the process of selection a difficult and messy one. I'm fortunate that I am able to use lots of timbers as firewood, and that I'm not extremely fussy about working only with top quality and properly preserved timbers and sizes, otherwise I would be better to find another hobby...!

Someone once said, "is a lot easier to make a bad piece out of a good log, then a good piece out of a bad log...!"

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[Little Festo]

Just uncovered this rough - She-oak (Eastern). I was surprised by the amount of distortion. There were aa few cracks but not too bad and will possibly be able to turn them out. The photo is of the mounting tenon.

Bit worried about mounting it on a chuck though :U. Will need to re-turn the tenon of course.

Peter

[bowl-basher]

Read recently about a turner that uses isopropyl alcohol. Pours several liters in a plastic tub, immerses the turned piece in for a day or two. The alcohol combines chemically with the water and displaces the moisture. If the alcohol tub remains covered you can use the alcohol for awhile. It will get funky, still works. As soon as I get my lathe uncovered, I gotta try this way....if anyone else gives it a shot???post
results??
:aro-r::aro-r:I tried this on some very wet Jackaranda (turned the day it was cut) rough turned and put in a metho bath I left them in for 3 weeks and then wraped in newspaper on top of a cupboard in the kitchen for a further 3 weeks no cracks in any of the 6 pices
I also used this on a lump of tipachina with perfect results
Stu in tokyo uses this a lot and I got a lot of good hiints from him
Good luck:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Bowl -basher
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[Hickory]

I'm too lazy to read the rest of the wrong answers so I will tell you what I do and have been successful with, having done...

I turn a green piece to w/i 10 % of the finished size, shape. I then soak it in Denatured Alcohol overnight, then I take it out allow it to air dry for a few minutes (half to whole hour) Wrap in Brown paper bag (like you get at USA grocerys) cut a hole where the bowl opening is. Wrap the edge with masking tape. Weigh and write the weight on the paper. every day weigh and write othe weight on the paper. when the weight is the same for three or four days in a row (about two weeks) it has done what it will do. Now you are ready to finish turning. But you must finish turning and apply the first coat of finish in the same day. Ta Da, you be a finished turner.

BTW in USA Denatured Alcohol is Ethanol with some Methanol mixed in to make it poison. Different worlds have different formulas but alcohol is the product. ethonal is Booze and shood not be used for drying wood, it is best used for nurturing the WWer. Isoprople is a good substitute, But the best substitutue is the cheapest product you have available. Alcohol is the key element here, it is a dessicant and will cause water to eradicate from the wood.

[hughie]

I have used the Hickory method with great success, especially on a load [about 1 tonne ] of Camphor Laurel.

The only variation I have found on some very dense Eucalytus hard woods that I had to soak for a little longer, otherwise its a sound and reliable method.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

BTW in USA Denatured Alcohol is Ethanol with some Methanol mixed in to make it poison. Different worlds have different formulas but alcohol is the product. ethonal is Booze and shood not be used for drying wood, it is best used for nurturing the WWer. Isoprople is a good substitute, But the best substitutue is the cheapest product you have available. Alcohol is the key element here, it is a dessicant and will cause water to eradicate from the wood.

For the edification of the n00bs, here in Oz we call DNA Methylated Spirits. Better known as Metho or Meths. (It doesn't come in crystal form. :wink:)

[NeilS]

Hi Hughie & Hickory

What containers are you using for the metho/DNA while soaking your pieces?

I assume that you use something with a lid to stop evaporation and reduce risk of fire and something with a large enough opening to readily get your pieces in and out.

Neil

[rsser]

Yep, or just plakky over the top.

Or a plakky bag alone.

Some more reading here:

http://www.djmarks.com/stories/djm/alternative_ways_to_dry_wood_turnings_91744.asp

http://alcoholsoaking.blogspot.com/

[Hickory]

Hi Hughie & Hickory

What containers are you using for the metho/DNA while soaking your pieces?

I assume that you use something with a lid to stop evaporation and reduce risk of fire and something with a large enough opening to readily get your pieces in and out.

Neil

I use the dreaded Tupperware from LOML's kitchen stash. Use just large enough for the piece to fit and takes less of the juice.

Skew, are we talking about the same product, DNA is Ethanol tainted with Methanol (or some other version that make the Booze portion of the Ethanol un drinkable)

The Alcoho drying method works well with Methanol, or Isopropal (in the pure form, not the rubbing alcohol) or Ethanol (drink pure ethanol , use DNA instead) Alcohol is a dessicant and will mingle with the moisture in the wood causing it to evaporate at a faster rate which hastens the drying process. Some forms of alcohol will help you pass the time waiting for the piece to dry, although operation of the machines and sharp pointy things is not reccommended till after a good nights rest. :2tsup:

[robutacion]

OK.... I see..

I wonder if this timber drying method, will help those of us with sleeping disorders.

Drinking it? no thank you, :yuk:
Sniff it? if it does this :stars: to you, then you should have a good :zzsoft: :D

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[NeilS]

Yep, or just plakky over the top.

Or a plakky bag alone.

Some more reading here:

http://www.djmarks.com/stories/djm/alternative_ways_to_dry_wood_turnings_91744.asp

http://alcoholsoaking.blogspot.com/


Thanks Ern for those links, I found the second link (Dave Smith's blog) very useful.

And, the plastic bag suggestion would be the go with those very irregular pieces that I sometimes turn.

Neil

[NeilS]

....are we talking about the same product, DNA is Ethanol tainted with Methanol (or some other version that make the Booze portion of the Ethanol undrinkable)


Yep, Hickory, we call DNA (ie denatured Ethanol) Methylated Spirits here, or metho for short. In fact, some people here have been using a variation of your metho-method for many years. In their method a brown paper bag is wrapped around the metho bottle instead of the wood, and the top is also left unwrapped, as in your method. The metho is applied in the 'woods' or public parks or under the bridge down by the river, but the drying out time seems to be a problem with this method...:U

Neil

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

:yes:

"Methylated" = to mix or combine with methyl alcohol (methanol)
"Spirits" = ... well, we're not talking ghosties here. :)

I believe our std. mix is 5% methanol, 95% ethanol & a tint of colouring.