glue

[suzuiq]

hi all
i am looking for some advice on glue for joining wood to make a guitar body.
i have a book printed in U.K that ses (yellow glue) or (Carpenters glue) is best. dose any body know what it is called in australia and possabley a brand that can be recomended thanks

[dayvo]

Titebond Original

[HOOKED.UP]

In my opinion, there is only one glue.

EPOXY. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

For a guitar body, A 200 ml pack of Selleys Super Araldite, should be more than enough.
Great product.

The worst company in the world to deal with.

Should be available at all good hardware stores. Will cost you an arm and a leg.

Paul.

[MICKYG]

Titebond original or Titebond 2


Both Great



Regards Mike:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[Master Splinter]

WEST epoxy. Same stuff as araldite, but better and cheaper and they actually talk to their customers It holds boats together. Big boats. Or Techniglue from ATL Composites - same sort of thing as WEST (they have the Australian licence for WEST, I think). Or Bote Cote epoxy if you want to support a local business. The boaties on these forums seem quite happy with it.

You should be able to find at least one of these brands at a boating store or decent woodworking place or even fiberglass place.

Yellow glue is the generic name for a cross-linking PVA. Selleys call their version Aquahere Exterior...but Titebond is the market leader (you won't find it at Bunnies). Titebond has a pretty short open time (you have to work quickly with it).

I'd still go for the epoxy - I just find it more versatile to have around (it can be used as glue, filler, surface coating, fiberglass laminating resin, encapsulating resin and all that sort of thing).

[Sebastiaan56]

Please remeber that epoxies can cause severe allergic reactions. See this thread from the luthiers forum http://www.mcguitars.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1056

The problem with this kind of sensitivity is that you dont know when its going to hit you and there is no cure apart from removing the source of exposure.

[peterbrown]

The other thing to keep in mind is that titebond cleans up with water. Epoxy does not and can be messy. Also Titebond can be undone (to an extent) with heat ( which is both an advantage and disadvantage), where as epoxy cannot, which many luthiers regard is important for the ongoing servicability of the instrument. Both have their place and are suitable for different applications. I personally use titebond for just about everything. I have found that some timbers react to the moisure in the glue, which I think is mostly due to the oil in the timber. For these timbers I sometimes choose to use epoxy. However for timber to timber joints you can't go wrong with titebond.

Cheers,

Peter

[black_labb]

i use titebond original for most everything. havent had a problem with it yet.

[Rattrap]

Is it possible to extend the open time on titebond? I'm thinking along the lines of adding a bit of water to it. The reason is that i find the original formula has a really short open time especally on a hot day.

[mic-d]

Is it possible to extend the open time on titebond? I'm thinking along the lines of adding a bit of water to it. The reason is that i find the original formula has a really short open time especally on a hot day.

I found that wiping the glue joint over with a damp rag immediately before glue up increases the working time of PVA because the wood doesn't suck the moisture out of it so fast. I've done a few vacuum veneering jobs where this helped tremendously. I would do this in preference to adding water to the glue.

Cheers
Michael

[Rattrap]

Sounds a much better way to go Michael thanks for that.:2tsup:

[kiwigeo]

I use Titebond I (original) and LMI white glue in my shop. Epoxy gets used but generally only for inlay work.

[DarwinStrings]

Hi Suzuiq
I am assuming you want to join a solid body but am not sure.

Epoxy works great on a sloppy joint as it is an "adhesive" but even on a tight joint you will always see the glue.

Yellow glue is a "cohesive" and needs a very tight joint to be successful over time but it hides well and provided your joinery is good then, no worries.

Another alternative is Urea formaldehyde which is excellent for that job but a hassle to use unless you are tooled up to use it.

If you are a beginner, Epoxy is a good starting point for a first solid body guitar( Araldite 24 hour or others, I use Mega Poxy). Do not use Araldite 5 minute set as it is not made for this situation.

Jim

life is good when you are amongst the wood

[walcen]

Is PVA Glue not an option? Ive used it on all my tight furniture joints and have found it near indestructible. Any thoughts on this?
regards
Wal

[Andrew_B]

up to you mate
everyone has their own opinions,

everyone has their method of using it,

i go through lots of different glues.. at the moment im on a tub of PVA,
once its gone i will grab a tub of titebond,
after that.. who knows...
im sure there will be another glue to pop up in the woodworking world that everyone will start raving about

[rdiquattro]

Just use titebond its the best and its very easy to use . Or you can buy 2 part epoxy that i bought from LMI in the US .

Thats ideal for woods like cocobolo and ebony .The only thing is i dont think it you will ever be able to steam it apart . Keep it simple go for titebond best of luck.:2tsup::2tsup:

[Hippety Hop]

Melbourne residents can find titebond original at A.Lewis & Co. (http://www.alewistimber.com.au/contact_us.html) in McKinnon, which will save you travelling all the way to Carba-Tec (http://www.carbatec.com.au/) in Clayton. That is, of course, if you have no interest in seeing Carba-tec's woodworking wonders to behold.
Lewis have lots of timber varieties, but the only figured wood I saw was some "fiddleback" mountain ash.
Woodworking Warehouse (http://165.228.72.165/webshop/EWWHome.csp) in Braeside also stock titebond. Lots of costly fun there too.

Cheers Hip.

[kiwigeo]

up to you mate
everyone has their own opinions,

everyone has their method of using it,



Unfortunately its not always simply a matter of opinions Andrew. Eg if you glue an acoustic bridge on with PVA then theres a high chance youll discover the low shear strength of PVA as your bridge pops off. If you use a water based glue on a rosette then you'd better get that rosette in really quickly before the thing swells up and no longer fits in the channel. If you hate glue clean up then you might find hide glue to your liking.

Each different glue has differing properties and is the best glue for certain applications.

[Andrew_B]

to be honest, i only know what iv used, and what i have done :)
i am yet to have a bad experience with pva

but as soon as i find a place in sydney that sells titebond,
i will move to that and see how it goes

the thing with pva, that iv found is, less is more....
if you layer the glue on thick you are obviously going to get a ?????? joint that will move over time, as there is more glue in the joint than there is wood to wood contact.....

my opinion, :)

[kiwigeo]

to be honest, i only know what iv used, and what i have done :)
i am yet to have a bad experience with pva

but as soon as i find a place in sydney that sells titebond,
i will move to that and see how it goes

the thing with pva, that iv found is, less is more....
if you layer the glue on thick you are obviously going to get a ?????? joint that will move over time, as there is more glue in the joint than there is wood to wood contact.....

my opinion, :)

Andrew,

It's nothing to do with the amount of glue on the joint....the fact is PVA doesnt match Titebond for shear strength and when youre gluing a bridge on an acoustic shear strength is critical. Hide glue is good for bridges...like AR glue it also has a high shear strength.

Cheers Martin

[mic-d]

Andrew,

It's nothing to do with the amount of glue on the joint....the fact is PVA doesnt match Titebond for shear strength and when youre gluing a bridge on an acoustic shear strength is critical. Hide glue is good for bridges...like AR glue it also has a high shear strength.

Cheers Martin

I don't understand:?:? A joint with modern PVA is stonger than wood. It doesn't need to be any stronger than that. Can't say I know anything about guitars or even what a bridge is:B, but isn't wood, well ... wood? If the PVA fails I think it's either an incompatibilty with the wood or poor joint preparation.

Cheers
Michael

[kiwigeo]

Can't say I know anything about guitars or even what a bridge is:B, but isn't wood, well ... wood? If the PVA fails I think it's either an incompatibilty with the wood or poor joint preparation.

Cheers
Michael

Hi Michael,

Check out any books and websites on acoustic guitar construction and you'll see what a bridge is and you'll also quickly notice two things:

1. A guitar bridge has to withstand quite high and constant shear stresses imposed by the strings when brought up to full tension. Even some bridges glued on with AR glue will start to creep over time.
2. Unlike most cabinet makers joints where the joint itself imparts some strength (eg mortise and tenon) the bridge on an acoustic is simply glued onto the soundboard of the guitar.

My original post was questioning Andrew's statement that which glue you use is a matter of opinion. Each joint on a guitar undergoes different stresses and there are differing requirements in terms of reversability of the joint. Good guitar building involves matching the best glue with each joint. This involves being aware of the properties (and limitations) of each different glue....nothing to do with opinion.

Cheers Martin

[Woodwould]

A guitar bridge has to withstand quite high and constant shear stresses imposed by the strings when brought up to full tension.

I'm not a guitar maker, so I'm not preaching, but I would have thought a bridge would see predominantly compressive loads, or is the 'strum-able' side of the string's vibrations responsible for harmonics that are capable of shaking a bridge loose?

I wouldn't have thought a bridge would present any gluing problems, but obviously it does (shows what I know!). Can you provide any pictures or sketches of what's going on?

[kiwigeo]

Okay I'm not going to go heavily into the physics of the guitar but in very simplistic terms the stresses exerted on a bridge contain both a downward and lengthways (ie towards the nut) component. The end result is a tendancy for the bridge to rotate down at its front edge and up at the back. This is why a bridge will commonly start to lift at the back edge before it eventually fails.

[Woodwould]

Okay I'm not going to go heavily into the physics of the guitar but in very simplistic terms the stresses exerted on a bridge contain both a downward and lengthways (ie towards the nut) component. The end result is a tendancy for the bridge to rotate down at its front edge and up at the back. This is why a bridge will commonly start to lift at the back edge before it eventually fails.

Fair enough. :2tsup:

[peterbrown]

Kiwigeo has provided alot of wisdom, and it would be well worth taking notes. There is one point which he hasn't made yet.

1. There is "stength" and "fatigue", which are two important, yet different characteristics of materials. If you take ordinary wire, say. try and snap it in pulling it with tension, and you won't be able to snap it, however bend it back and forth for long enough, and you will snap it with very little effort. The first demonstrates the strength of the steel (in tension) and the second demonstartes it's deteriation in strength as a result of fatigue.
2. There are different kinds of strength (in simple terms). "Shear" Strength, "Compresive" strength, "Tensile" strength, and "tortional" strength (to name a few). And each material will have different strength characteritics of each of the before mentioned. Eg. Concrete has a very strong compresive strength, however very poor tensile strength, which is why steel reinforcement is placed in the concrete. The steel has a high tensile strength to compensate for the concrete's poor tensile strength. Hence each glue will have different "strength" characteristics suitable for different applications.
3. Viscosity. Some glues when they set are not true solids, but liquids with a very high viscosity (slow flowing), which causes them to move stightly over time when constantly under pressure.

Kiwigeo is correct in that there are some joints in guitar building where the chois in glues is not critical, however there are some which are very critical. the bridge is an obvious one, however one that is often overlooked is the joints within the neck. There is a constant tension in the strings, with a constant counter action with the truss rod, which results in a constant internal shear, tensile, comressive and tortional (to a lesser extent) stress within the neck. Which is something to consider when gluing fretboards on and neck lamination joints.

I think I've woffled on enough already,

Cheers,

Peter

[mic-d]

Hi Martin,
Thanks, I checked out what a bridge is, now I know!:D
Still can't see any reason why you couldn't use a modern PVA. And now I'm also thoroughly confused because in an earlier post you said you use Titebond original which is PVA. Now I wonder if there is confusion in names here, because Titebond original also contains an aliphatic resin which was an early improvement in PVA technology (yellow glue). PVA crosslinking chemistry has come a long way, but there are still misconceptions about white PVA and yellow PVA because of the shortcomings of original (white) PVA. I know that one Autralian manufacturer makes a modern PVA, but puts a yellow dye in it for marketing. Modern crosslinking PVA's have even higher performance than 'yellow glue', so I think if you recommend titebond original for bridge glueing there is no logical reason to argue against modern PVA for the same.




Hi Michael,

Check out any books and websites on acoustic guitar construction and you'll see what a bridge is and you'll also quickly notice two things:

1. A guitar bridge has to withstand quite high and constant shear stresses imposed by the strings when brought up to full tension. Even some bridges glued on with AR glue will start to creep over time.
2. Unlike most cabinet makers joints where the joint itself imparts some strength (eg mortise and tenon) the bridge on an acoustic is simply glued onto the soundboard of the guitar.

My original post was questioning Andrew's statement that which glue you use is a matter of opinion. Each joint on a guitar undergoes different stresses and there are differing requirements in terms of reversability of the joint. Good guitar building involves matching the best glue with each joint. This involves being aware of the properties (and limitations) of each different glue....nothing to do with opinion.

Cheers Martin


Kiwigeo has provided alot of wisdom, and it would be well worth taking notes. There is one point which he hasn't made yet.

1. There is "stength" and "fatigue", which are two important, yet different characteristics of materials. If you take ordinary wire, say. try and snap it in pulling it with tension, and you won't be able to snap it, however bend it back and forth for long enough, and you will snap it with very little effort. The first demonstrates the strength of the steel (in tension) and the second demonstartes it's deteriation in strength as a result of fatigue.
2. There are different kinds of strength (in simple terms). "Shear" Strength, "Compresive" strength, "Tensile" strength, and "tortional" strength (to name a few). And each material will have different strength characteritics of each of the before mentioned. Eg. Concrete has a very strong compresive strength, however very poor tensile strength, which is why steel reinforcement is placed in the concrete. The steel has a high tensile strength to compensate for the concrete's poor tensile strength. Hence each glue will have different "strength" characteristics suitable for different applications.
3. Viscosity. Some glues when they set are not true solids, but liquids with a very high viscosity (slow flowing), which causes them to move stightly over time when constantly under pressure.

Kiwigeo is correct in that there are some joints in guitar building where the chois in glues is not critical, however there are some which are very critical. the bridge is an obvious one, however one that is often overlooked is the joints within the neck. There is a constant tension in the strings, with a constant counter action with the truss rod, which results in a constant internal shear, tensile, comressive and tortional (to a lesser extent) stress within the neck. Which is something to consider when gluing fretboards on and neck lamination joints.

I think I've woffled on enough already,

Cheers,

Peter
Thanks for the engineering lesson.

Cheers
Michael

[kiwigeo]

Mic, I'm using Titebond I which is an aliphatic resin emulsion (=yellow glue). This is one of the most common modern glues used by luthiers...it has a short tack time and doesn't dry hard.

Its possible some modern cross linked PVAs may equal Titebond for shear strength and other properties. Im going to have to go away and do a bit of research on this one.

Ok Post script. Looks like Ive got a bit of egg on my face. Yes Titebond is a PVA and yes some modern PVA's match it in terms of strength and other physical characteristics. That said alot of luthiers still prefer Titebond I for the reasons mentioned above.

Despite the obvious gap in my knowledge on modern PVA glues my comments still stand on glue selection not just being a matter of opinion.

[mandoman]

Luthiers will argue till the cows come home about glue. It is my firm conviction that there is no perfect glue. Every glue has it's advantages and disadvantages, and there is nothing wrong with using more than one glue in a musical instrument. My mandolins have 4 different glues, each one used where it is most appropriate. For wood to wood joins I really like LMI Luthier's glue. Original Titebond is good, but LMI Luthiers glue in my opinion is better mainly because it does not creep so much and it dries rock hard. It is a white PVA especially formulated for musical instruments, but it does have a shelf life and you had better observe the shelf life, and you can only get it from LMI in the USA. The main problem with PVA glues is they creep under stress (such as a guitar bridge). Original Titebond and LMI Luthiers glue do not creep so much. Original Titebond does creep, and that is why I stopped using it, but it is certainly a tried and proven glue for musical instruments, and is now easy to get in Australia. I stuffed around with a lot of different glues (including hide glue), but eventually settled on LMI Luthiers glue. It is as close to hide glue in it's properties as you are ever likely to get in a PVA glue, but it is not hide glue. Hide glue does not creep, period. If I was working on my first instrument it is not worth stressing out about glue and I would use original Titiebond for wood to wood joins.

[DarwinStrings]

I know that one Autralian manufacturer makes a modern PVA, but puts a yellow dye in it for marketing. Modern crosslinking PVA's have even higher performance than 'yellow glue', so I think if you recommend titebond original for bridge glueing there is no logical reason to argue against modern PVA for the same.


This is a interesting thread even though Susuiq seems to be long gone.

Michael I would like to know who it is if someone still manufactures PVA in Australia even if they do use yellow dye.

When it comes to glue, particularly Franklin Titebond guitar makers feel safe with it as it has been recommended from maker to maker and it is hard to go past that sort of recommendation.

Now days I use the best of both worlds for a bridge, "Polyaliphatic crosslinking PVA"
which by my estimation has both low creep (aliphatic) like Titebond and water resistance(crosslinking) like Titebond 2. Being in the tropics I felt it was better to use a more water resistant glue than Titebond although I do have a bridge that has been on for 17 years in the tropics the was Glued with Titebond original.

I would like to use epoxy for its holding power and usefulness when it come to high MC wood but I still think it is important to have a little creep in the bridge. I will stick with Modern PVA till someone makes a glue that is ok with high MC and has a little creep and also that I can seperate with heat.

Jim

Water makes a great glue, if you only play your guitar in a freezer.

[mic-d]

This is a interesting thread even though Susuiq seems to be long gone.

Michael I would like to know who it is if someone still manufactures PVA in Australia even if they do use yellow dye.

Water makes a great glue, if you only play your guitar in a freezer.

A J Blackwood Pty Ltd.

Cheers
Michael