Making scrapers

[Tiger]

I'm finding that I need more and more scrapers to do things like boxes and various facework items. I have a dozen files that are just sitting there and I never use. I have read both sides of the argument that you never use files for scrapers and conversely that they are fine either heat-treated or not heat-treated. I have met guys that swear by them. For those who have used files as scrapers, have they ever shattered on you?

Also, if you need to make up a few scrapers what is the most cost-effective way of doing this if you do not use files?

[orraloon]

I have two I got along with my first lathe. I dont think they were heat treated just ground down. The first owner of that lathe was a bit of a rough workman. I have rehandled them and changed the profile a few times. I used them for a few months and then got a couple of hss scrapers. Well I found the hss ones gave me the confidence to really hog into things without the fear of things shattering but they dont quite have an edge like the files do. I now use the file scrapers for fine finishing cuts. As this is a light toutch cut with little overhang I feel quite safe. I have never had one shatter but am always carefull. Now I am not advocating the use of files as scrapers so anyone using them the responsability and risk are you'rs alone.
Regards
John

[joe greiner]

The shattered file story is probably a precautionary urban legend. Grinding to below the teeth, on the top surface a wee bit behind the tool rest, should reduce most of the stress concentration, as well as annealing a little. I've used them this way for free-hand outside turning of brass without drama.

I wouldn't use them for any kind of hollowing, because of the long overhang and vibration.

Cheers,
Joe

[hughie]

I go along with Joe on this one. I started out at around 13-14 using files on my Dads lathe and now I'm, well never mind. :U

They are excellent scrapers but will not hold the edge like HSS. But because of the grain structure you can get an edge like a cut throat razor. So for the final work they have thier uses.

But as Orraloon has mentioned the each turner must make that choice for themselves.

My comments are for educational purposes only :U

[orificiam]

I've used files as scrapers without problems.Like Joe said it's importante to remove the
teeth completely from the file.
Cheers Tony.:)

[powderpost]

I have made a number of scrapers by silver soldering pieces of power hack saw blades to the top surface if mild steel bars. I scrounged a piece of 30 x 10 mild steel bar at the wreckers. One I cut a 12mm slot about 25mm long in one end and welded in a piece of 12mm steel rod to make a tang. That one even has a handle. The others I left about 400mm long and use it without a handle. The last piece was about 500mm long so I silver soldered a piece of the hacksaw blade on each end. Saves time sharpening. The heat involved in silver soldering doesn't worry the hacksaw blade.
Yes, I have seen a file break in use. I had some heavy files surface ground in my previous place of employment, to remove the teeth. My neighbour used my lathe to make a fishing reel and used the file to scrape the shape and broke the file. Admittedly he wasn't a competent turner.
Jim

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I'm not a great fan of 'em. Had one I'd annealed break off at the tip. No earth-shattering KABOOM or splinters flying everywhere, but it snapped at the tool-rest, right where my fingers were...

...and it hurt.

/Me not do that again. :no:

[orificiam]

Skew How hard were you pushing ?:oo::oo:
Cheers Tony.:)

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Skew How hard were you pushing ?:oo::oo:
Cheers Tony.:)

Not hard. I use scrapers a lot and know that they cut best (and stay sharp longest) when left to cut at their own rate.

FWIW, I've had also had a couple of "proper" HSS turning tools do similar, although they broke at a fault in the steel which wasn't obvious until later, not at the tool-rest. (I think I posted pix of a skew that snapped on these forums?)

No serious injuries (except to my pride) but I suspect that if I had and needed pro attention, then my insurers would've had a field day if they could prove I'd been "misusing a file."

[Tiger]

Jim (Powderpost), have you got any pictures of your silver soldered scrapers, I'd like to see you did that?

[joe greiner]

I'm not a great fan of 'em. Had one I'd annealed break off at the tip. No earth-shattering KABOOM or splinters flying everywhere, but it snapped at the tool-rest, right where my fingers were...

...and it hurt.

/Me not do that again. :no:
More than happy to stand corrected on this one, with more-or-less direct evidence. Too often such tales originate with Uncle's third wife's ex-husband's cousin once removed. Or work mate thereof.:rolleyes:

Cheers,
Joe

[issatree]

Hi Tiger,
Please don't be afraid of using a File as a Scraper. I've used them for about 27 years. If you do them the safe way & be careful, it is all OK. There are thickish files around, so use one of them.
In saying this I DO HAVE HSS ones as well.
Wrap end in a rag, place in vice, Knock about 4in.or 100mm. off, by hitting it with a hammer.
( Then you will see how hard they are to break )The rag stops it from flying around. You now need to heat it to Cherry Red, then let it cool off on its own.
NO water. Use an Angle Grinder to remove ALL the cutting surfaces of the File. Now shape it to your liking on the grinder. You now have to Heat the last 2in. or 50mm to Cherry Red & use either oil or water to cool it quickly. Reheat that same area, & as you remove it from the heat, watch the Colours Run, When it is a Straw Colour dunk it again. Put at least a 13in or 335mm. handle on it, Sharpen it up and try it out.
Well that is the way I did mine & I have NEVER had a problem
I actually polished mine on an old 320G. sanding belt, & I also take the Corners off the bottom of the File, that's so they don't catch or mark your Tool Rest. Hope this works for you as it did me.

REGARDS,
ISSATREE.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

More than happy to stand corrected on this one, with more-or-less direct evidence. Too often such tales originate with Uncle's third wife's ex-husband's cousin once removed. Or work mate thereof.:rolleyes:

Yeah, there's nothing like elaborating on hear-say to make a nice horror story.

Still, I'd imagine that there's a kernel of truth in there somewhere; at a guess, probably based people trying to use files that haven't been annealed.

[hughie]

Please don't be afraid of using a File as a Scraper. I've used them for about 27 years. If you do them the safe way & be careful, it is all OK. There are thickish files around, so use one of them.
In saying this I DO HAVE HSS ones as well.
Wrap end in a rag, place in vice, Knock about 4in.or 100mm. off, by hitting it with a hammer.
( Then you will see how hard they are to break )The rag stops it from flying around. You now need to heat it to Cherry Red, then let it cool off on its own.
NO water. Use an Angle Grinder to remove ALL the cutting surfaces of the File. Now shape it to your liking on the grinder. You now have to Heat the last 2in. or 50mm to Cherry Red & use either oil or water to cool it quickly. Reheat that same area, & as you remove it from the heat, watch the Colours Run, When it is a Straw Colour dunk it again. Put at least a 13in or 335mm. handle on it, Sharpen it up and try it out.
Well that is the way I did mine & I have NEVER had a problem
I actually polished mine on an old 320G. sanding belt, & I also take the Corners off the bottom of the File, that's so they don't catch or mark your Tool Rest. Hope this works for you as it did me.


I have done this in the past and almost exactly to a tee the same method.It works fine I have a filleting knife made from a file years ago and it has an edge I can shave with.

For me carbon steel tools are best used for finishing and thats what I use then for. So the cuts are light and precise as opposed to hogging out the centre of a bowl.

[powderpost]

Sorry Tiger, I missed your post. I made them a while back when I was making deepish vases and larger bowls. As you can see, they don't get much use these days. Except for one of them I used an old machine hacksaw blade for the inserts. I was advised by the fitters at work, not to use the 50mm on each end as it had been "softened" to bore the hole.
From the left....
1. 12mm rod bent to go around corners with a small piece of machine hack saw blade about 1mm thick.
2. 30 x 10mm mild steel bar. This one has a piece of high speed planer blade silver soldered on. This was the first one and I even filed a rebate to fit the insert into.
3. Piece of 12mm square bar with hack saw blade
4. Another piece of 30 x 10 bar. This is the one that is double ended.
5. A tiny one made from a piece of 6mm round and tapered.
As you can see they are not pretty, but work really well.
Jim

[Tiger]

Thanks a lot Jim. Is there any vibration with the thin hacksaw blade?

[powderpost]

Tiger,
No, the hacksaw blade is thicker machine blades and is firmly silver soldered to the base material. I made these a while back, before high speed steel blanks were available on the internet. In fact there was no internet then. I still make the odd "special job" tool because I don't want to wait a week for the post, plus it is good fun to make your own tools...... sometimes.
Jim

[SWR]

Hello All,

Following on from this thread I was always told by the guys at the woodturning club ( Southern region in Sydney) that making chisels out of old files is a no-no (explosions, lost eyes, dis-embowelment....)

The first lathe I bought had about 8 "chisels" converted from old metal files and I had two break on me due to inexperience in using them (had too much overhang and the rotating lump sheared it clean off at the toolrest).

I have a video displaying just this but it's too big to upload.

I get that these converted chisels can be made to be razor sharp for a clean finish but if you are looking for a super clean finish to remove tool marks try using cabinet scrapers (Curved and straight)

They work magic and give a much finer finish than any chisel I have OR sandpaper.

My 2 cents worth...


Cheers,

Scott in Peakhurst.

[Broda]

This is a good article about making your own lathe tools, it has some good info about heat treatment and making your tools safe

http://www.bigtreetools.com/articles/siegel%2018-4.pdf