Using the Elsworth / Irish grind

[jefferson]

A fellow forumite (not a bad bloke either) acquired a new bowl gouge for me - a HT 5/8" Kryo that he sharpened for me with the Irish grind.

I'd used a gouge ground like this only once before, and then under the watchful eye of a pro turner. Alas, the experience has been lost.

And talking over the phone isn't overly beneficial at times! At least not for a novice turner.

What I've been doing with the standard ground bowl gouge is put the chisel on the rest at a right angle to the wood, lift and engage the bevel, then turn / pivot the tool (left or right) and start cutting using the lower portion (underside) of the chisel.

But I can't do that with the Irish grind! The cutting edge just disappears. Does that make sense?

Help!

A much wiser head has tried to explain, but I need it in writing. The memory is not what is might be.

It's a nice chisel the HT and I want to use it. I've seen it used at a level I aspire to, one day. Geez.... there are probably 40 chisels in the rack and I probably can claim to be proficient, not expert, with maybe 2.

Feeling very inadequate at the moment (but not one catch with the skew for almost a week).

Jeff

[pommyphil]

Just mastering " The Skew ", a whole week without a catch, I dream of such skill.
Did you really turn for 7days, without a catch:-

[Cliff Rogers]

Send it to me Jeff, I'll give it some lessons. :D

[jefferson]

Just mastering " The Skew ", a whole week without a catch, I dream of such skill.
Did you really turn for 7days, without a catch:-

I try to do "good turns" every day. Therapy. And I limit my use of the skew to those tasks that I am comfortable with. Very few beads I might add! Unless I am feeling very confident, which is probably 2 days in 7.

As for you Cliff, I've lost those Ci1 inserts you sent me. So, no, I won't be sending you the new Kryo. I will learn to use it, maybe someday.

But it sure looks and feels nice!

Jeff

[NeilS]

Hi Jeff

Someone on the forum (could have been Ern) sent me some instructions from David Ellsworth (himself) on how to use a gouge with his grind.

There are some words, that I have attached here, and some diagrams which I cannot post here as they are too large but I could email to you if you would like those as well.

Neil

[NeilS]

Managed to reduce those Ellsworth diagram files down to attachment size.

Neil

[tea lady]

Its kinda complicated cos the things like 2 or 3 tools in one. (4 if you count my "twin blade razor" cut, but that might give even a heart attach.:D ) There's the "push" cut which kinda uses it like a spindal gouge. And the "pull" cut which, I think, is the shear scraping thing everyone talkes about. :shrug: he bevel is rubbing for both these cuts. (Is there more ways? :think: I wouldn't say that with either of these ways that the tool is at right angles with the wood. :hmm: I have the handle angles down a bit. Prolly 30°ish. Cos my angles are a bit "ish"y. So that the bevel is rubbing. Means the tool rest in down a bit cos the chisel is still contacting the bowl (or whatever ) on the center line. And angled back of forward so bevel is rubbing.

Clear as mud?:D

[jefferson]

Thanks Neil, Tea Lady and poor who has been on the phone with me for too long.

I'm not overly frustrated with this - it is said, quite correctly, that I have "office worker's hands". And a mind to boot.

So it takes me a little longer to deal with tangible things that may seem very simple to others. OK. But I'm not going to beat myself up about it.

One thing I have learned from my many catches is to go back and unwind the incident. (Another lesson). That tells you what you did wrong. And how tools cut or not.

But for the life of me, I just cannot fathom how to use this new toy!

I can get the standard grind gouge cutting perfect (albeit with some tearout) going right to left, parallel with the bed. But not with the Irish grind.

I'll take another happy pill and maybe, just maybe, it will all work itself out tomorrow.

Any and all advice most welcome.

Jeff

[tea lady]

I can get the standard grind gouge cutting perfect (albeit with some tearout) going right to left, parallel with the bed. But not with the Irish grind.

I'll take another happy pill and maybe, just maybe, it will all work itself out tomorrow.

Any and all advice most welcome.

Jeff I think if you just do more it will.:2tsup:

That parallel with the bed thing still seems wrong. :think: I don't think I'm ever parallel with the bed. :no: Will have to observe myself tomorrow.:U

[Cliff Rogers]

...I've lost those Ci1 inserts you sent me. ...
Huh? How did you do that? :?

They were sticky taped to the bottom of a covering letter, did you chuck the letter out?

[RETIRED]

OK Jeff, after considerable R&D, head scratching, being a gongoozler and trying my Kryro you are right.

It will not do the cut you are trying to do. The flute shape does not permit it be sharpened that way. The bevel under the nose is too short.

Here is the fix.
1: Set the bar on the Tormek to spindle gouges.
2: Use the same projection from the jig.
3: Set the jig on 111 (you will know what I mean.
4: Grind. It will take a while. You need to lengthen the bevel under the nose and round it.

Hope that makes sense.

Sorry for the frustration.:-

[rsser]

Jeff, you can borrow my DVD of Ellsworth showing how to use his signature gouge, which is prob what you have. It's rather different in use from a conventional bowl gouge.

The grind is designed to have a short bevel at the tip - about 55 to 60 degrees. This really helps the bevel to rub at the transition from the wall to the bottom of a bowl (on the inside). This is one of the advantages of the grind and I would leave it as is. You can leave a longer bevel on your other gouges.

The grind can be reproduced with a fingernail jig with a bit of trial and error; least I've been able to on a unit like the Woodcut jig and with the Sorby.

[RETIRED]

Ern. The grind on Jeffs is slightly different.

I had it too pointed and the transition angle from the front to the sides was wrong because of the flute shape and would not allow it to cut.

Serves me right for not trying it before it left here.:-

By using the setup that Jeff has it will bring it back to almost this grind :http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml second one down, Ellis Walentine.

[jefferson]

Thanks and Ern (and yes, a loan of the DVD would be great).

I've done a little more research this morning and it appears that the Ellsworth technique is "advanced". Probably too advanced for me at this stage. So I might just put the Kryo into cold storage for a while.

Jeff

[Cliff Rogers]

... might just put the Kryo into cold storage for a while.

Jeff

It is cold up here. :D

[rsser]

Oh OK. You gave it the 'bird beak' treatment? ;-}

Yeah, the Walentine angles look good to me.

Jeff, no need to cryo over the Kryo any longer.

[Cliff Rogers]

...it appears that the Ellsworth technique is "advanced". Probably too advanced for me at this stage. ....
Seriously, that is a bit of a defeatist attitude, get it out & use it on chunks of firewood til it works for you.
You can even use it on spindle turning.
There is one old bloke who comes to Prossy each year who hardly uses anything else.
He has a couple with wings that are so swept back that he uses them like a skew.
I have 4 in my kit. (But I don't have a Kyro yet)

[DJ’s Timber]

It is cold up here. :D

Nuh, it's colder here :cold:

[Cliff Rogers]

Nuh, it's colder here :cold:
Yeah but, you wouldn't store it the right way. :D

[DJ’s Timber]

Yeah but, you wouldn't store it the right way. :D

That might be true but at least it won't get any wear here as I still haven't put the new bearings in my headstock since we pulled them at last year :o

[RETIRED]

Oh OK. You gave it the 'bird beak' treatment? ;-}

Yeah, the Walentine angles look good to me.

Jeff, no need to cryo over the Kryo any longer.Yessum.

[rsser]

Jeff, have a look at the video first. In principle the moves are quite simple. It takes a bit of practice to develop fine control but the results can be excellent. The 60 degree tip bevel is much easier to use than a 45 degree job as you transition to the bottom of the bowl. You'll wonder why anyone tries anything else.

K, sales pitch over.

[tea lady]

That might be true but at least it won't get any wear here as I still haven't put the new bearings in my headstock since we pulled them at last year :o:doh::no: Jeez DJ! Do you need another turnfest up there so you get your finger out?:D


Thanks and Ern (and yes, a loan of the DVD would be great).

I've done a little more research this morning and it appears that the Ellsworth technique is "advanced". Probably too advanced for me at this stage. So I might just put the Kryo into cold storage for a while.

Jeff Nah! Just means not on the first lesson.:p:rolleyes::D

[jefferson]

I dunno about all this turning stuff.

It was supposed to be good therapy, but I can say quite honestly that 12 months down the track it's been more a task than a pleasure.

I've spent plenty, tried hard, met some great people along the way, but I may just hang the (many) tools up in the rack. Watch the buy and sell forum.... I will have plenty going cheap.

Defeatist? No doubt. Perhaps someone will get more pleasure out of it all than I can manage.

Jeff

[Cliff Rogers]

Strewth Jeff.... have 6 beers, a bottle of red & half a bottle of port & when you stop shaking in a day or so, have another think about it. :cool:

Maybe you just need to make shavings for a while, don't try to make anything at all, just make shavings.

When you get good at making a LOT of shaving in a hurry, then try to make something again.

It isn't that hard really. :)

[thefixer]

Maybe you just need to make shavings for a while, don't try to make anything at all, just make shavings.

When you get good at making a LOT of shaving in a hurry, then try to make something again.

It isn't that hard really. :)

Now that's sound advice and dam good therapy. I have actually done that on several occasions for no other reason than "coz I can":rolleyes: and then just picked up the shavings and stared at them for a while. That is normal, isn't it?:oo:

Cheers
Shorty

[DJ’s Timber]

I have actually done that on several occasions for no other reason than "coz I can":rolleyes: and then just picked up the shavings and stared at them for a while. That is normal, isn't it?:oo:

Cheers
Shorty

Yep, completely normal and exactly what I proposed via PM if he'll wait for 2 or 3 weeks

[jefferson]

I cannot convey exactly what I am feeling at the moment.

All I know is that you guys / gals on the forum have kept me (truly) alive for the last year or more. In between stays to the shrink hospital.

Thanks in particular to , DJ, Ern, Calm and others.

It would be nice to wake in the morning and turn all day. Just got to get started. As for the Elsworth grind..... too difficult at the moment.

And Cliff, if you're out there, yes I did lose those inserts.

I've "fessed up" to a few on the board about my "chronic" mental condition. One in particular dumped me as quick as. That wasn't great.

But the 3 or 4 that I've told have been very understanding. I just hope all of the rest of you don't dump me too quickly.

Jeff

[Paul39]

I dunno about all this turning stuff.

It was supposed to be good therapy, but I can say quite honestly that 12 months down the track it's been more a task than a pleasure.

I've spent plenty, tried hard, met some great people along the way, but I may just hang the (many) tools up in the rack. Watch the buy and sell forum.... I will have plenty going cheap.

Defeatist? No doubt. Perhaps someone will get more pleasure out of it all than I can manage.

Jeff

Jefferson,

It is possible that you are not made to be a turner.

BUT, maybe you are trying too hard. I assume you are doing this for your own amusement, not to make your fortune as the next great turner.

My RX:

If you are frustrated and tense, don't touch the lathe for a week.

Get some junk timber, construction off cuts, etc. nice plain grained timber, no knots, no voids.

Mount it in the lathe and using the tool or tools with which you are most successful, make whatever shape comes into your mind, sand it and finish it with whatever you have at hand.

If that makes you feel good, do it again.

After you have made 5 to 10 pieces with one or two tools, try another tool with which you have been successful.

Make 5 to10 with that.

If you have been paying attention after 20 or so objects you will notice that you are not thinking about how to present the tool, or should it be turned this way or that. You just stick it up against the timber and it makes that nice swishing sound and streams or chips of wood come sliding off the tool.

It is no different than learning to ride a bike or drive a manual shift car. Think about how you learned that, and do you now think about: ease off the gas, push in the clutch, move the lever from this position to that, ease out the clutch while pushing on the gas petal, etc.

The makers and endorsers of lathes, chucks, and tools would like us to believe that their particular combination of stuff will painlessly make us into world class turners.

The truth is that only hours at the lathe and paying attention makes you good.

The fact that Richard Raffan makes wonderful bowls and other things is due much more to the fact that he has made over 28,000 bowls than the particular lathe, tool, or technique.

Bob Stocksdale made many wonderful bowls with a only bowl gouge and a little scraping. Two tools, and his bowls are world famous.

Once you get the basic idea of sticking a sharp piece of metal against a rotating piece of timber, it is all in learning about if I do this, it cuts nicely, if I to that, it goes groink and makes a funny ragged groove.

Remember, this is for fun. Relax and keep turning. One day it may come to you that you made an object with no catches, it didnt fly off the lathe, the little bit of torn grain sanded out, and I like it.

[Paul39]

I cannot convey exactly what I am feeling at the moment.

I've "fessed up" to a few on the board about my "chronic" mental condition. One in particular dumped me as quick as. That wasn't great.

Jeff

Jefferson,

Your post arrived while I was writing mine above.

Keep in mind that the "normal" is the average of the abnormal.

I do not know what your affliction is, mine has been depression bordering on suicide. I have not been hospitalized, but have had and still have the help of therapists.

It is shameful that mental illness is not treated with the same respect and consideration as physical illness and disability.

Many are afflicted but would not admit, or seek treatment for fear of being considered "crazy".

"Crazy" Paul, in a good way.

[rsser]

Jeff, yeah, it's meant to be play, not work. You have been ambitious and have achieved a remarkable amount in a short time.

And it's not easy to develop a playful attitude where your head is at now.

[Calm]

Jeff

Ernie the milkman (remember Benny Hill) is on the go again for the next 4 or 5 days.

Will try to call in if i can - i owe you a couple of bits of wood so will try to find a Blackwood slab that i can cut into disks for you to "waste" as platters.

See you sometime over the weekend - all going well.

Cheers

[Cliff Rogers]

....And Cliff, if you're out there....
:think: Does that sound like me. :rolleyes: :D

Hang in there Jeff, watch a couple of woodturning videos & then just go out & make some shavings. :2tsup:

[tea lady]

I've "fessed up" to a few on the board about my "chronic" mental condition. One in particular dumped me as quick as. That wasn't great.

But the 3 or 4 that I've told have been very understanding. I just hope all of the rest of you don't dump me too quickly.

Jeff

Being on this board has kept me sane too. Hard to find a "community" in this world. And woodies all are very supportive. Shared help, shared thoughts, shared support. It all has really helped me get through my post natal depression (that seems to be going on for quite a while. :think: ) So hopefully can understand a little of what you are going through. :shrug: I guess some people in this world still think it is all in our heads.:rolleyes: or just don't know what they can do to help. Just being there is a good start. So hopefully me being here is a help to you, too. :console:

So with the turning......... Can you do the job you want to do with a different tool? :shrug: Or maybe make something else that doesn't involve the wood spinning. :rolleyes: Then come back to turning in a few days. :)

[Alastair]

Jeff,

Have to say that one of the things I turn to when the black dog bites, is turning. It is the combination of the tactile, shavings, timber, the creative and the natural which is an escape which helps. Sometimes it isn't even the completion of something, or else it is the doing of something completely irrelevant to what NEEDS to be done.

That said, the last thing you need is frustration to drive you further up the wall. (I find loud bad language and throwing things at the shed wall helps if that happens):-

Having learnt my initial woodturning by watching videos and making mistakes, I have to say that the best course out of your situation is hands-on input from a sympathetic and skilled teacher.

I then later did the TAFE woodturning course, which put everything into formal terms.

There is a danger in the early stages that teaching can be prescriptive (this is the only way to do...etc), but remember that many great turners have developed techniques which are formally "wrong" . Raffan is a good example. Ultimately developing a technique which works well FOR YOU, is the goal. Adapt and borrow with pride.:D

I'm sure that many of the top turners round your way would be prepared to help. If you are ever in Sydney, contact me, and I'll do what I can to help, if you wish to pop in.

regards

[efgee88]

My Question is... why do we need one of these tools?

What does this do that you cannot do with a conventional bowl/spindle gouge or skew combination?

Excuse my ignorance forumites, but I don't get it.

There are a squillion turning tools out there that just confuses the heck out of me.

..... And an Irish grind makes me imagine something conjured up by that Irish builder from Faulty Towers - Yikes!!

Cheers,

FrankG

[efgee88]

Ah yes, just thought of his name - O'Reilly!

Anyone with ideas to develop a new tool with the O'Reilly grind?

FrankG

[old pete]

Hi Jefferson,

I can't comment on the Ellsworth grind but I know that fortunately you will never need to acquire proficiency with the 40 tools in your rack in an individual sense. As your skills grow you will use less and less of your tools, settling finally on about 4 for spindle turning. I've got about 15 tools that I store horizontally on a little rolling table that I position where I want around the lathe but when starting a job I put all the ones I don't need in a plastic pail with a timber insert bottom; that usually leaves me with 3 or at most 4 required for spindles.

Don't get too excited about going a week without a run back or catch although that is good to hear. Some folk go years without those events happening because through long practice they have come to recognize the approaching point where a run back will occur and they re-orient the tool ( without stopping cutting) to avoid that happening. I guess it becomes semi intuitive. I teach turning and I find it difficult to illustrate live to students how a run back occurs because everything in me is directing me not to do just that. Keep at it: the first couple of thousand hours at the lathe can be written off as a learning experience!!! Old Pete.

[jefferson]

Thanks people for all the support.

I've been getting some great turning tuition from and others, which has got me going.

The hard part is having all this great gear and not having the enthusiasm to use it.

I found a link on the net yesterday and sent a message to Fred Holder in the UK. He sent me back a copy of an article he wrote for a turning magazine doing the Ellsworth grind on the Tormek. I've asked him if I can circulate. It's a good article with plenty of pics too.

Thanks again, Jeff

[Alastair]

To support old pete,

Attached my tool cabinet.

From the
Roughing gouge
13mm spindle
10mm detail

Used all the time on spindle work. Essential. Only need more if doing v large, or minature.

25mm skew
12mm square skew (h'made)

All the time on spindles. ~ 50% each.

16?mm bowl gouge, (mild Ellsworth grind) 100% bowl turning
1/4" h'made bowl gouge. Virtually never used since above bought.

10mm parting/ sizing
2mm x 20mm parting

H'made. Used all the time spindle, and box work and chuck recesses on bowls

70 deg scraper Used for cleaning up chuck recesses. Could use skew as well.

30 x 8mm scraper. Occasionally used for inside boxes, and cranky bowls.

Remaining 3 are home versions of deep hollowing tools. seldom used, just taking up space.

Also some detail on grind.

Finally 3 basic techniques with this tool:

Pic 4: Roughing outside. Slicing cut with handle down, using l/h wing. Pull cut. Good for removing material quickly, w/o tearout.

Pics 5 &6 Finishing cut outside. Slicing cut, handle horizontal, using r/h wing. Push cut with bevel rubbing

Pics 7,8 9 Inside cut. Cut starts upright, slicing cut on l/h wing, bevel rubbing. As approach transition, tool rolls to the right, (ie clockwise) and cut moves to steeper bevel at foot of flute to cut across bottom.

[Sawdust Maker]

Jefferson
A couple of things
1 I'm having tomorrow off for "shed therapy" why - because I need it. I need a day to meself and pottering around in the shed. Will I accomplish anything? probably not but I will feel better by 3pm, I may or may not turn the lathe on.:o
2 Believe it or not I (and no doubt others) have learnt heaps from you.You have asked questions that I haven't thought of yet - but they and the answers have been very useful. There's a lot of knowledge out there in this forum. Questions such as yours have unlocked a lot it.

I'm sorry that someone dumped you 'as quick as' I don't know the problem. But, not to sound trivial about it, I think you might be surprised about some of the crosses which others of us carry.

can we see a rough hewn log turned into a bowel shape tomorrow?

[jefferson]

Nick,

I don't have too much in the way of logs here - plenty of boards, slabs and 4 by 4s. Would a little 5 by 3 redgum trincket bowl do?

I got out into the shed last night and lit the fire. I re-ground one of the 1/2 inch German spindle gouges to a better shape and was pleased with the result. So expect some more questions.....

thanks again Jeff

[Farnk]

Jefferson


can we see a rough hewn log turned into a bowel shape tomorrow?


Now THAT would be an accomplishment!:D

[Alastair]

Now THAT would be an accomplishment!:D

But it would be a bit cr*p to eat out of:D

[Farnk]

But it would be a bit cr*p to eat out of:D

I reckon you'd need one of those offset turning jigs :D

[tea lady]

I reckon you'd need one of those offset turning jigs :D

:rofl:

I had a turn with a whole bunch of bowl gouges with various grinds on them today. (At that nice blokes place down the coast. :cool: ) Conclusion? I want a 5/8th inch Kryo bowl gouge. :sigh: And I quite like the Elsworth grind. :2tsup: But it can't quite happen on my own bowl gouge cos the inside flute shape isn't quite parabolic. :C Will have to make do with an approximation. (until xmas time maybe. :innocent: and I promise to be really good. :D )

[jefferson]

Watch it Tea Lady, I don't want you spending too much "lesson time" with that bloke down on the coast. I figure you'll wear him out and there'll be nothing left for me.

Jeff

[Sawdust Maker]

Nick,

I don't have too much in the way of logs here - plenty of boards, slabs and 4 by 4s. Would a little 5 by 3 redgum trincket bowl do?



That would be good, show us the results
and aparenttly I can't splell eiter gladd I wass sum ammusement to somme :q
My day off accomplished sfa :doh: got a pen done but sat around a Dr waiting area in the morning as the SWMBO ia a tad crook. Drugs will fix it I hope.

[Hardenfast]

Jeff, you can borrow my DVD of Ellsworth showing how to use his signature gouge, which is prob what you have. It's rather different in use from a conventional bowl gouge.
The grind is designed to have a short bevel at the tip - about 55 to 60 degrees. This really helps the bevel to rub at the transition from the wall to the bottom of a bowl (on the inside). This is one of the advantages of the grind and I would leave it as is. You can leave a longer bevel on your other gouges.
The grind can be reproduced with a fingernail jig with a bit of trial and error; least I've been able to on a unit like the Woodcut jig and with the Sorby.

Hi Ern. I wouldn't mind getting in line for a loan of your Ellsworth DVD if that's not testing your indulgent good will too far. I've been playing with some different grind patterns a little with only moderate success. Been using a "try it and see approach" rather than following any disciplined instructions - maybe the DVD will show where I'm going wrong?

I bought myself one of the Oneway/Wolverine grinding jigs from the 'States which allows me to get nice precise (and repeatable) shapes, so with Mr Ellsworth's guidance I may be able to refine my technique.

I suspect my difficulties may have more to do with the application of the tool to the timber rather than sharpening angles etc - truth be known it's probably both. However, I was interested to see identify that there was actually a deficiency in the sharpening technique in Jeff's particular case.

Sorry for the temporary diversion to your informative thread Jeff, but I suspect that there are heaps of people out there who share my/our confusion as to the subtleties of grinding and applying bowl gouges. Mind you, I'm embarrassed to admit that I haven't even switched the Leady on since before Christmas - maybe this will prompt me to jump back in.

And everyone must excuse my unforgivable ignorance - and I know I should search before I ask the questionn - but what's a Cryo?

Don't ever think that you're the only one out there who struggles with some of this stuff Jeff. I'm also a believer in the "what you've got will probably do the job" brigade - but there's so many wonderful toys out there.... right?

Wayne

[rsser]

Wayne, yeah no worries, but some of the techniques may not work too well unless you can get a bevel looking like the Walentine version referred to above.

Added: the jig will help but if the flute's the wrong shape .... as TL pointed out.

Take a pic?

[rsser]

Oh, and to add something else: there's nothing that a gouge like the Sig gouge can do that you can't do with other means. You just need several tools.

[RETIRED]

Oh, and to add something else: there's nothing that a gouge like the Sig gouge can do that you can't do with other means. You just need several tools.
Agreed.:2tsup:

[tea lady]

Watch it Tea Lady, I don't want you spending too much "lesson time" with that bloke down on the coast. I figure you'll wear him out and there'll be nothing left for me.

Jeff I think he likes people asking him dumb questions. (Not that you ask the dumb questions. I ask the dumb questions....... I'll just shut up now. :C )


Agreed.:2tsup:
:? what would you use instead of the long wings of the Elsworth grind? :think: Nothing else is really used like that. Scrapers aprouch the surface differantly, and you get tear out on blackwood (for instance. ) I could have used a spindle gouge on the flat platter I was doing today, but the curve would have been shorter, so more difficult to get the long curve profile........ So ..... ? :shrug:

[rsser]

1. What makes you say that scrapers approach the surface differently TL?

2. If you had a 5/8" spindle gouge and ground long wings on it .... ?

3. Can you imagine what the edge of a freshly ground scraper looks like at microscropic level?

I don't pose these as rhetorical questions by the way.

[RETIRED]

I could have used a spindle gouge on the flat platter I was doing today, but the curve would have been shorter, so more difficult to get the long curve profile........ So ..... ? :shrug:A spindle gouge would have done it, followed by a very sharp, heavy semi-circular scraper if needed.

[Hardenfast]

Wayne, yeah no worries, but some of the techniques may not work too well unless you can get a bevel looking like the Walentine version referred to above.

Added: the jig will help but if the flute's the wrong shape .... as TL pointed out.

Take a pic?

Thanks again Ern. I'll try to get a good resolution pic of the business end of my favourite bowl gouge. It may be useful for Jeff (and me :roll:) to get some feedback from you guys as to flute shape, angles, bevels etc. My bowl gouges are nothing special - just standard Hamlet pieces from Gary Pye. Still, I've managed to inflict major damage to some harmless pieces of timber with them.

Wayne

[NeilS]

And everyone must excuse my unforgivable ignorance - and I know I should search before I ask the questionn - but what's a Cryo?



See Kryo here (http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Turning_Tools/Spindle_Gouges/spindle_gouges.html)

Neil

[NeilS]

what would you use instead of the long wings of the Elsworth grind?



A swept back grind on a continental gouge may do it, at least on the pull cut.

Neil

[RETIRED]

Neil, are we talking a proper spindle gouge like this:106611
or a continental gouge like this?106612

[tea lady]

1. What makes you say that scrapers approach the surface differently TL?


Well, I thought that scrapers were used with the handle slightly up from the vertical. :hmm: The wings of a swept back bowl gouge are cutting more like a skew or a potatoe peeler perhaps. The finishing cuts are done with a more "scraper" part of the Elsworth.

At the microscopic level The scraper does have the "rolled edge" thingy (Can't remember the term now.:doh: ) But how long does it last?

[rsser]

Close up the edge off a dry grinder looks like a mangled saw tooth edge. That's the burr. When the scraper is cranked at 45 degrees it's doing a half-baked job of slicing. And yeah, the burr doesn't last long on hard woods.

You can get something more like a knife edge by removing the burr on a stone and turning up a burr or 'hook' with a diamond hone or burnisher.

[jefferson]

Ern,

it would be interesting to see some of those micro photos like you've done before - showing the before and after when turning something hard. Also the difference between a standard burr and the Veritas one.

Another little job for you:U!

Jeff

[rsser]

Pics should be found on several posts in this thread Jeff:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=75940&highlight=scraper+edge+treatment&page=2

The test of edge treatment performance is still on the gunna do list.

[Hardenfast]

See Kryo here (http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Turning_Tools/Spindle_Gouges/spindle_gouges.html)

Neil

Many thanks Neil. Checked it out - informative site. I think also identified this site for us elsewhere. I kinda figured that Kryo would have something to do with a freezing technique. Most interesting.

Looks like I'll have to check these out at the upcoming Sydney Wood Show. Any idea as to which dealers are likely to have them there?

Wayne

[rsser]

IIRC Kryo is Henry Taylor. Mere mortals use cryo.

If you're in the market for tools Wayne and with the aussie dollar creeping back up in value against the greenback, take a look at http://www.thompsonlathetools.com/

Cryo treated, triple tempered and with 10% vanadium to improve abrasion resistance. Washes whiter than white too.

Doug says the 5/8 V shaped bowl gouge is very similar to the Ellsworth sig gouge.

Also bear in mind that the Yank's measures are rod diameter while locally you may find the measures are flute diameter. Pays to ask.

[NeilS]

Neil, are we talking a proper spindle gouge like this:106611
or a continental gouge like this?106612

In that case , I was thinking 'proper spindle gouge', like your attachment 1 and my attachment 1 below, but saying 'continental gouge'.

Sorry for any confusion.

Neil