Jet Or Dvr ?

[hotrod100]

Hi Guy's
I'm sure you guy's get fed up of the never ending "LATHE DEBATE",
but as a newby' I really value the view's of the more experienced.
Being in the market for a new lathe I had more or less decided on the Jet 1642 16"swing, 42"bc , cast iron bed & stand, electronic variable speed etc retail's for approx $2500.00 (that being close to lathe budget, as we have to leave dough for all the extra's turning, tools, chuck,etc) when I suddenly woke up to the fact that Iwas in the same price range as the DVR 3000 (Less stand).
Having heard the DVR 3000 mentioned on this site quite a bit,and getting good rap's, my question is which one to go with or is there another lathe around that price range that I should be considering? as usual any advice more than welcome. :confused:
Thank's Rod

[RETIRED]

Would you buy a Torana as against a Mercedes?

[ozwinner]

Hey, whats wrong with a T runa? :D


Al

[echnidna]

Hey ,
Which one's the torana?

[ozwinner]

The one wid the T runa badges silly.


Al :D

[gatiep]

Rod
If you are really serious about woodturning and want to spend that kind of money, have a look at the Vicmarc VL-175 electronic for about $3375 with the stand. They are available without a stand but I don't know what the price is. The stand is substantial, so the price must be a fair bit.
The VL-175 is a "real lathe",made in Australia and the kind of once in a lifetime buy.

[Kev Y.]

Rod, as an unbiased member, BUY THE DVR, you can not go wrong, mine has been in the shed now for two years, best investment I ever made.

Kev :cool: :rolleyes: :p

[Jim Carroll]

The DVR can do one thing every other lathe cannot do and that is increase torque under load.
All other lathes ,belt drive , variable speed loose torque under load. The DVR electonics measures the load as it is working and as you increase the load with a heavier cut the torque increases so keeping a constant speed.By keeping a constant speed you dont have to stop the cut you are doing and take a lighter cut. By keeping a constant cut you finish up with an even cut, by stoping and starting all the time you start to get the rippled effect. Harder to clean up. proved this a couple of years ago at the Phillip Island Turn around , with large bowl gouge in hand he laid into a bowl blank and the lathe kept driving . Everyone was impressed. With the same type of cut on other lathes there would have been belt slip.

[rsser]

Jim's right, and I believe the newer models now have a slower speed than version 1 (which I think ran at an unhandy 200-300 rpm slowest speed).

The DVR is not however as solidly made as the Vicmarc 175 in my view, which comes standard with a metre between centres bed. And yes, it is available in bench version, and that's how I bought mine, but by the time I had a steel stand built to order and the controls wired up (they are mounted in the stand normally) I didn't save much of the $600 initial price difference.

The 175 comes with a very solid outboard turning attachment too.

[Jim Carroll]

The new versions have a low speed of 100rpm .
They come standard with 600mm between centres and you can turn 400mm over the bed which for the large majority of woodturners is more than adequate, granted the Vic Marc is double the weight and longer in the bed but for the average woodturner this is not required. How many times do you turn table legs or large bowl blanks , keeping in mind the DVR can turn 740mm with the outrigger.

[gatiep]

Quote " for the average woodturner this is not required." !!!!!!!

Jim
Sorry mate but your last reply really shoots your previous one about the increased torque down. Now how many times will the ordinary woodworker deliberately try and stall a lathe that has sufficient power?
did it to prove a point, sure it works but in everyday woodturning it is of zero importance.

I have taken delivery of a new Vicmarc 175 with 1.5 hp this morning. I actually ordered a special build with a 2 hp motor and electronics to do 30 to 3000 rpm. In other words the same as the 200 and 300 versions. This was because I have very special projects in mind for which I need the 340 m/min or even less speed at the circumfrence of what I want to attach to the headstock.
Unfortunately Vicmarc, after quoting on the above specs and saying that it can be built, sent a lathe at 1.5 hp (1.1 kw) and in actual fact it does 62 rpm on the lowest pulley setting. Before taking delivery of it the local supplier phoned Vicmarc and they confirmed that the lathe they sent was 1.5 hp AND that it does 30 RPM! According to them it is physically impossible to fit a 2 hp motor to the VL175 lathe. What a load of bull!
I tested the lathe on getting home: At the high pully ratio it does a minimum of 186 RPM and on the low ratio it does 62 RPM. The electronic readout for the motor says 90 RPM. Seems that Vicmarc's rev counter is not working too well, but at 62 rpm, its easy enough to count the rpm.
Vicmarc has a very nice product BUT unfortunately they have no idea about customer relations or giving feedback. It also seems that whoever the suppliers speak to have no idea of what the specs of the equipment that they build are. In my case it is definately true, as I have been on the local suppliers case and they have been on to Vicmarc. It seems to be a case of you pay what we want and we supply whatever we want.
A pity though, with such an attitude it won't take long for them to get a reputation that is not favourable. If I have my facts correct, they are the only lathe manufacturer left in Australia. MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm
This experience has surely taken the excitement and fun out of buying a $3600 plus lathe.

[rsser]

Gatiep is right on the money in taking as a starting point that the best lathe is the lathe that will allow you to do what you want to do. Obviously no one unit will be optimised for every application; it's a question of trade-offs. You have to be clear on what your priorities are. For me, eg. I'm happy taking my cutting slower as long as a solid outboard tool rest will allow me to work on larger and irregular pieces.

But yes, poor customer service is not matter of trade-off in lathe design, and it's not hard to get right. Teknatool have a better name in this respect.

[RETIRED]

did it to prove a point, sure it works but in everyday woodturning it is of zero importance

I very rarely express an opinion on this board as I try to remain neutral.

I turn wood for a living, speed is of the utmost importance.

I am not a fan of variable speed lathes for the following reasons:
1: I cannot fix electronics if they foul up and I can't stop to wait a week and pay someone a fortune to fix it.
2: Every variable speed lathe that I have tried I stop dead in its tracks because of the loss of torque when taking what I call a reasonable cut. The DVR is the only lathe that I have tried that came close to keeping up with the way and speed at which I turn. I don't have time to muck about waiting for the lathe to speed up or reset the switch because it overheated.

We run 3 HP motors on most of our lathes with the weight of the motor being the only tensioning. I have come close to stalling but never stopped one of those those.

If you want a true variable speed lathe that does not lose torque from 0-20,000 revs there is only one way to do it in my opinion and that is to use hydraulic drives.

The lathe here http://www.ubeaut.com.au/woodstuf.htm was intended to have hydraulics but I ran out of time and fitted tried and true pulleys and belts with the option of fitting reduction gears in the drive line. 82 speeds from 37rpm-27,000 but the motor can't drive above 8,000 revs and that is scary enough.

[ptc]

what about a symtec ?
made in oz.
ptc

[John Saxton]

Joe. a point here in that I recall some time back someone else had trouble with Vicmarc and apparently didn't get satisfaction from them.

They have an edge on the market being a local producer but that is no reason to send out something you didn't order in terms of your specs.
In my view I would have not paid for the lathe without first checking it out in the agents shop!
Vicmarc can only do themselves harm in the market by being dictatorial and not adhering to client demand or at least making some attempt to communicate to the person/clientele concerned :mad:

hotrod 100,have you also got access to a local woodturning club that may also offer up some advice for you in your choice of the Jet or the DVR3000?
There were a couple of folk on this BB who went with the DVR3000 and were reasonably happy with it but I hanen't seen comment on the Jet to date but thats not to say the Jet isn't suitable for if like all other Jet products a lot of good thought goes into their product and they seldom get real bad press.
Good luck
Cheers :)

[hotrod100]

Hi Guy's
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you , but I've been tangled up with other far less interesting issue's. A huge thank-you to everbody for taking the time to consider and reply to my question.
I must say that this as certainly turned into a two horse race,and as stated by John,the lack of input on behalf of the Jet lathe's, certainly help make the decision easier. I also took your advice and indeed the advice given many time's on this forum ,and joined a club,( safety in number's---MINE ) :D. I've checked out both lathe's, the DVR and the VICMARK, and at this stage even though it's a bit above budget ,I'm leaning very heavily toward's the VICMARC 175 EVSM as it come's with a stand and certainly look's robust enough to do what I want,and does have 1mtr BC,(I mean all the girl's reckon that bigger is better so what the hell I'll go with them on this,---speaking of
B--I--G check this bowl out http://www.proswoodturning.homestead.com/The_Big_Bowl.html ).
Once again many thank's for your input ,as I appreciate every view given, and we even gave the Torana the flick (although there are some very nice Torana's still running round). ;)

Thank's Rod

[Red neck]

Hotrod,

I would have to go along with the DVR camp. Mind you the Vicmarc is a very good machine but you can buy a lot of extras with the $875 difference between the two. I looked very closely at the Vicmarc before buying a DVR late last year and deliberated long and hard before choosing.

The quality of both machines is excellent and in my case it really came down to the drive technology. The direct drive of the Nova DVR was a key point in my decision. The lathe is very smooth and delivers a constant, steady stream of power to the work-piece. Optional extra beds will increase the distance between centres for long spindle work. The lack of belts was another feature that appealed. Elsewhere someone has mentioned the twenty per cent loss in power associated with belt drives.

Another issue is the information available on the respective web sites. If you check out Teknatool you can download all the manuals for their lathes, chucks, jaw sets and other equipment they manufacture. In my case having access to that information before purchasing was a major selling point.

That $875 saving will buy a good chuck with several jaw sets, a few chisels and a bench grinder.

[hotrod100]

Hi Guy's
Redneck, thank's for sharing your view's with us,I really appreciate you taking the time to reply, and I do take on board all advice given.
Having deliberated and pondered all the pro's and con's off both makes of lathe's, (as you say both are excellent machine's with advantages and disadvantages on both sides), I think I'm going to stick with the Vicmarc.
One of the advatages being that they are manufactured approx thirty min's
from where I live so if I do have any problem's with the machine I should be able to get it repaired in quick time.

Just one more question guy's and I promise this will be the last( on this subject anyway), ;) and a bit of information that may be of interest to some, a couple of day's ago I was speaking to a gentleman by the name of
Enzo Verrecchia he own's a company called VERMAC, pretty close to VICMARC eh ,and also pretty close geographically only about ten min's down the road from them.
Anyhow it turn's out that Enzo is the brother of Victor Verrecchia, who is the owner of VICMARC MACHINERY .

Enzo's company, apart from manufacturing quite a good range of product's and accessories for the woodturning world in general,also manufactures various equipment, and does several up-grades on the VICMARC range of lathe's.

One of the up-grade's performed is on the VL200, this
up-grade takes the standard model and increases the motor size from 1.0hp
to 2.0 hp and the standard 6 speed, to variable speed with Hitachi electronics (speed range 30 to 3000) also a knee bar stop as in the VL300.

The price of this model is $3750.00 as apposed to the VL175 price tag of $3650.00 (with knee bar stop), now my question to the forum is this, the VL175 is a swivel head lathe and comes with a very solid out-board turning attachment( as stated by RSSER ). The VL200 doesn't have this attachment, or the swivel head facility,so now I'm wondering how important is this ? and is it something that I should be concerned about.

Many thank's for your advice, alway's appreciated
Rod :D

[Red neck]

Rod,

My old lathe, a Record and the DVR I use now are both swivel head lathes so I couldn’t comment on any difficulties in setting up outboard attachments on a fixed head lathe. The outboard turning attachment is an optional extra for the VL200 and VL300 models. Without the option the swing over the bed is 400mm.

One advantage of the swivel head lathe is that you can align the drive axis at 90 degrees to the bed which will minimise ‘out-of-balance’ problems as the lathe is more stable along the bed alignment than across it – due to the stand footprint.

[hotrod100]

Hi Redneck
Just a couple of point's, did you buy a stand for your DVR or did you make one yourself,? If you bought one what was the approx cost.Also is there a outrigger available ? ,(I'm assuming you would need one when using the swivel head facility).:D
Thank's Rod

[Red neck]

G’day Rod,

I bought a stand from Carbatec – it was designed for a Woodfast M910 which is a heavy unit so the stand was ok for the DVR (similar weight). I had to modify the stand by building a hardwood top to support the DVR as the framework wouldn’t permit bolting the lathe directly to it. I also raised it four inches to bring the drive centre up to elbow height. Carbatec sold the stands for about $300 but had a few on special for $100. That was before last Christmas.

I haven’t yet bought the outrigger but have it on my list. By swivelling the head about 45 degrees I am still able to position the banjo and tool rest in front of the work-piece and swing a sizeable blank. It also allows access to the blank without removing the tailstock or leaning across the bed. The DVR will swing 400 mm over the bed and 740 mm with the outrigger and that would be one hell of a blank.

Teknatool also supply a heavy cast iron stand for the DVR. The design is unique in that if you elect to add bed extensions, the stand doesn’t require modification.

The DVR outrigger sells for $245 and the stand $350 at Gary Pye Woodworking http://store.yahoo.com/gpwoodturning/tekdvrlat.html

[Little Festo]

Hello Rod,

I bought a VL300 off Vermec about 6 months ago. i opted for that over the Nova largely because of the build - much heavier and robust. I got the short bed and it weighs in at 300kg and is certainly built to last. Enzo's electronics certainly seem to work well, unfortunatly I cannot compare this with the original Vicmarcs but I'm certain that Enzo could set up a comparison. The New Vicmar's now have three pully setting whereas previously they had two. (When I checked mine there were the three pully settings.) It seems that Vicmarc haven't advertised this too much. I've been very happy with the 300.

I looked at the DVR and could have purchased one for quite a bit less than the VL300 but wasn't convinced as to how robust the DVR is as it's a much lighter build BUT since, I have seen one it appears to be a very nice machine. I'm happy with the VL300, it's nice and powerfull (2hp with the Hitarchi electronics), I can take deep cuts without any apparent slowdown (I'm only a beginner so I wouldn't be able to emulate 's prodigious cuts). Enzo felt that the VL175 was good value as it comes with the outboard attachment and has a good bed length.


Well Rod I'm going on a bit but I love my lathe and of course I love my woodturning.

All the best with the decision you make with your choice - Peter