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RETIRED
22nd June 2009, 11:18 AM
As most on this Forum know, I have been a staunch proponent of free hand sharpening of chisels and gouges. I still advocate that it should be something to aspire too as you can shape the chisels to the way you use them.

However, certain things in the last 12 months have put me in the position where I have to eat humble pie and admit that there is a definite place for using grinding and sharpening jigs.

You will note that I said grinding and sharpening. There is a distinct difference between the two. Grinding is shaping the tool to the required shape for use and sharpening is the final bit to get the cutting edge to its maximum potential to cut cleanly.

The reasons that I am now in favour of jigs to sharpen tools are:

1: I have had about 4 students over the last 12 months that cannot sharpen tools free hand and too much time was wasted trying to teach them.

2: Without a good edge on tools you cannot turn wood to your own satisfaction. It becomes a chore rather than a relaxing pastime.

3: Learners need consistency of angles because they do not have the ability to compensate for subtle changes of bevel angles or different shapes. I quote from http://www.oneway.ca/sharpening/index.htm


Professional turners have two distinct advantages over the hobbyist turner when it comes to sharpening tools:

* Professional turners have a lot more experience at the grinder, so are more qualified to sharpen tools.
* Professional turners have more experience at the lathe, so they are better equipped to handle tools which behave differently. If they don't get exactly the same shape on their tool after they grind it, they can easily compensate, while the hobbyist may have more troubles from their tools if they don't behave in a predictable fashion.That little paragraph summed it up for me why students have so much trouble in getting tools sharp and using them.

I have had in the past a Unijig which was used by my employees to sharpen tools in the past but I took that out years ago (wish I still had it, would have saved me some money)when I lost my major contracts due to businesses moving interstate or switching over to auto produced stuff.

So after studying what was around I bought a Tru-Grind and a Tormek after watching numerous videos on the web and listening to Ken Wraight extol the virtues of them.

It was easy learning to use the Tru-Grind but the Tormek was a steep learning curve because it goes so slow it doesn't seem to be doing anything.

The bottom line of this is that I now shape on the Tru-Grind and sharpen most of my tools on the Tormek. I said most because with some of the bigger tools that I use they will not fit in the jigs. In those cases I use an adaptation of the Wolverine system (home made).

I am as quick using the jigs as I am freehand sharpening, tools are cooler, are consistent in shape and probably sharper.

I still freehand to shape the tools and set the jigs to repeat that shape.

I have sinned, forgive me.

wheelinround
22nd June 2009, 11:32 AM
:no: not you surely you have let the side down

Go ye sinner have 5 good scotches/rums what ever and forget it :D

tea lady
22nd June 2009, 11:39 AM
:no: not you surely you have let the side down

Go ye sinner have 5 good scotches/rums what ever and forget it :D
Or 5 cups o' tea and a biscuit.:D

Groggy
22nd June 2009, 11:49 AM
, definitions relating to sharpening can be confusing. I posted these a while ago so thought I'd put them up again.

grinding: Hogging metal off a chisel or plane blade to rough out the bevel and remove nicks.

sharpening: Taking the edge to where it will cut and there is very little roughness to be felt when scraping the back of a thumbnail.

honing: taking the edge to a mirror finish that will catch a finger nail when lightly passed over it.

Woodwould
22nd June 2009, 11:51 AM
, you're not alone, though in my case, for a different reason. I used to grind/sharpen/hone all my edge tools entirely by hand (and I could also drill perfectly perpendicular holes by eye and plane perfectly square edges by eye too), but currently my eyes are playing havoc with my sense of what is 'true'. I haven't yet invested in woodturning tool aids (other than one of those generic adjustable rests in front of the grinder), but I have a LV Mk II for my BE chisels and plane blades etc. It's very frustrating, but at least there are all these jigs and aids available nowadays.

I find I have to regularly check the planed edges of boards with a square and adjust my action accordingly. I also have to check the angle when drilling in two planes to ensure perpendicularity. All these little foibles don't half knock one's confidence!

rsser
22nd June 2009, 11:59 AM
Another advantage of a jig is that you waste less precious metal.

Ed Reiss
22nd June 2009, 12:09 PM
Like , I too ground and sharpened freehand from way back in '82 (feel like a dinosauer!!), but now I also have to fess up to using a jig for gouges_ bought the Nova Sharpening center when it was on sale. It does a decent job and the grind now comes out without multi-facets.

All this 'cause the old eyes are just not as sharp as they were even a year ago...gettin' older ain't for the faint at heart :~:doh::D

Woodwould
22nd June 2009, 12:13 PM
Another advantage of a jig is that you waste less precious metal.

How true! I'm thinking of making/purchasing a grinding jig for my turning tools for this very reason.

Alastair
22nd June 2009, 12:44 PM
At a much lower level of excellence, I reached the same conclusion some years ago. Freehanded abysmally for years; was taught properly by George Hatfield at TAFE,; learned enough to know that if you were good enough, (and regular enough, read proffessional) it was the best way. Learned my limitations, and now use jigs fo most things.

Occasionally I will be tempted to "just give it a lick to keep going", but generally this will mean a proper regrind down the track.

Refreshing to see someone of 's calibre prepared to concede that there is a place for jig use, even at elevated level.

regards

Gil Jones
22nd June 2009, 01:53 PM
Ian, there is no need to feel the need of a blessing. I used to shape and sharpen all of my metalworking bits/tools, but when I started woodturning in 2004, and discovered the Wolverine jig (and it's accessories) I found it to be a big time saver for me, and a steel saver too. In my not so humble opinion, what ever tool works best for you is the best tool to use..
Cheers!! :)

Bob38S
22nd June 2009, 03:08 PM
"Humble pie?"

I don't think humble pie is necessary - you have adapted to changing circumstances rather than persisting with something that was no longer working for you. It shows that you are still alive.

People who are not prepared to change or adapt remind me of the old schoolie who proudly announced that he had had 40 years of experience - unfortunately it was 40 x the first year rather than 40 varied and valued years.

Regards,
Bob

hughie
22nd June 2009, 03:08 PM
As a long standing sharpener by hand of all manner of tools over many years and still do so to some extent.

I recognise now ,what now is obvious :U :C for speed and tool steel conservation A jig will be more beneficial than most free hand sharpening if not all.

I agree that for grinding by hand is the way I go and will still do so. But for the final angle and edge a jig is by far faster and more consistant.

Hence my post some months ago of my home made sharpening jig from an old engineering protractor.

Texian
22nd June 2009, 03:32 PM
A courageous admission by and good point by Ern. A century from now the debate may be about which CNC beginner lathe is best, or should one spend the extra money for voice recognition and programing.

artme
22nd June 2009, 03:44 PM
Never mind , You will know that things are Crook when you have to get someone else to sharpen your tools for you!:D:D:p

funkychicken
22nd June 2009, 07:35 PM
Jigs? Bah! Gimmicks and gizmos all of them!:p

Although, I wouldn't grind or hone a chisel or plane blade without a veritas jig

Calm
22nd June 2009, 07:50 PM
Jigs? Bah! Gimmicks and gizmos all of them!:p

Although, I wouldn't grind or hone a chisel or plane blade without a veritas jig

Do you sharpen the lucas freehand do you funky?? with only a bare file with a handle on it.

Cheers

bobsreturn2003
22nd June 2009, 07:50 PM
love that tormek certainly seems gutless when you start , but does an excellent job on the wet wheel . good to see we are still learning . cheers bob

Burnsy
22nd June 2009, 07:57 PM
I hone using a jig and have been grinding on a belt sander free hand or with the same jig. Has anyone used one of these (http://www.carbatec.com.au/machinery-for-wood-and-metal-working/grinders/surface-grinder)surface grinder style units from Carbatec, alot cheaper than a tormek but not wet grinding? I think Makita use to make one too.

artme
22nd June 2009, 08:08 PM
Funny thing this sharpening caper.

My father used to sharpen cross cut saws and axes, including broad axes by hand with a file.
Later on the chainsaw was done exactly as the Calm one has outlined. Never a problem with blunt instruments.

Me? I'm PBG at taking the edge off things.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

jackliveshere
22nd June 2009, 08:38 PM
As a relative newbie to turning (1 month experience :2tsup:) and being self taught, I find jigs are invaluable for a newbie to get stuck into woodturning without having to worry too much about sharpening freehand and getting it wrong. My very first sharpening session I tried a gouge freehand and bollocks it up big time. I quickly built a wolverine-esk jig and it is a piece of cake for square ground gouges. It got me going and into turning without allowing me to get discouraged as I couldn't sharpen. There is a place for jigs and freehand sharpening in turning no doubt - it all comes down to what you are most comfortable with and what works for you. If you get to the same result when turning and have fun while doing it (more so for hobby turners), I figure you can sharpen whatever way you can :2tsup:

PS. Turning is awesome :2tsup: I think I'm very much addicted :;

Cheers,

Will

powderpost
22nd June 2009, 11:34 PM
For what it is worth, I have just started using a home made jig for grinding (after 50 odd years) but still hone freehand on a water stone. The grinding jig became necessary after some digital damage. But then grinding jigs are a fairly recent innovation. I can also concede that after teaching for 25 years, beginning turners find grinding jigs very useful.
Jim

KenW
23rd June 2009, 10:16 PM
, being new to the Forum. I am not sure if this where I place the, I told you so.
Ken

Calm
23rd June 2009, 10:22 PM
, being new to the Forum. I am not sure if this where I place the, I told you so.
Ken

It'll do:D:D:D:D:2tsup:

jefferson
23rd June 2009, 10:38 PM
I've got a little confession to make too. I've had a Tormek for maybe 8 years - still on my first wheel and have refused to use it for sharpening anything other that non-turning tools. Plane blades, bench chisels etc, no worries.

Until recently, when got me onto using it on my gouges, both bowl and spindle.

But not my skews or scrapers.

So I went down to the sharpening weekend "knowing" that using the white/blue wheels were still going to be my method of sharpening for those tools.

Then Ken suggested that scraping with the burr with my scrapers only imbedded more and more steel into the wood as I tried to gain a better finish off the tool. Made a lot of sense.

The upshot is that is building me a stand so I can use the Tormek jigs / bar on my grinder to gain the required shape quickly, and then use the Tormek to get sharp.

I'm hoping it will work - it should do, so long as the respective wheels on both grinder are roughly the same size. Otherwise, I'll be spending hours on the Tormek getting it right.

Lesson no 139: don't attend a Vic WWF meeting with pre-conceived notions.....

Jeff

RETIRED
23rd June 2009, 10:48 PM
, being new to the Forum. I am not sure if this where I place the, I told you so.
Ken
New to here (dunno what took you so long) but you have known me for a long time so :q.

Jim Carroll
23rd June 2009, 11:11 PM
Now we all know you dont eat Humble Pie more like Custard Tart.


Agree with all you say in that as a production turner you keep moving quickly but when teaching the learners it can be a very backward step so jigs were necessary for me, still not a full coverrt to the tormek but working on it.

jefferson
23rd June 2009, 11:20 PM
Jim - an absolute gem. Second / third forum-induced laugh tonight, but the best.

I had to show this one to my good wife and she is still laughing too - having watched demolish a custard tart and half a gallon of cream on the weekend. :wink:

Or is that too cheeky from the Little Grasshopper? Forgive me my master.

Jeff

rodent
1st July 2009, 10:45 PM
it's not your fault . It's your students fault . Those people who are trying to learn a new skill ( no let's get it right people it's a skill ). Who's ability is stretched beyond there ability to go from wood to metal in an instant of thought . Still there's the tool angles , tool control , tool flow ( in the right direction ) , tool type for the job , tool placement ( relative to the wood ) . The doo's and dont's for each situation . wood chucking , holding ,cuting , back hollowing , wood desighn , structure and compasition of wood . And many others , then there's the SKEW . So dont be apolagetic it's realy your students inability to adapt to an extra medium .:aro-r::D

Cliff Rogers
2nd July 2009, 09:55 AM
, being new to the Forum. I am not sure if this where I place the, I told you so.
Ken
Since you are NEW to the forum Ken, I'd like to point you to a post from 10 years ago. :D

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=53 :2tsup:

tea lady
2nd July 2009, 10:31 AM
Geez! What sort of memory have you got Cliffy.:rolleyes:

rsser
2nd July 2009, 10:52 AM
A search memory ;-}

While on gear obsession, anyone tried the new Varigrind 2? Sposed to prevent the tool running off the wheel.

And long ago and far away folk spoke in hushed terms about the Oz-made Heligrind ... what was the plus with this?

Alastair
2nd July 2009, 10:59 AM
A search memory ;-}

While on gear obsession, anyone tried the new Varigrind 2? Sposed to prevent the tool running off the wheel.

And long ago and far away folk spoke in hushed terms about the Oz-made Heligrind ... what was the plus with this?

I only ever saw the HG demonstrated once, on a fingernail detail gouge. Here the advantage was that due to the helical guide groove, not only the bevel angles were defined by the jig, but also the profile.
This made a reproducible grind a certainty, but I suspect also limited you to just that profile?

Someone with hands on knowledge might set me right?

regards

Cliff Rogers
2nd July 2009, 01:24 PM
Geez! What sort of memory have you got Cliffy.:rolleyes:
Fairly selective. :p

jefferson
2nd July 2009, 04:43 PM
it's not your fault . It's your students fault . Those people who are trying to learn a new skill ( no let's get it right people it's a skill ). Who's ability is stretched beyond there ability to go from wood to metal in an instant of thought . Still there's the tool angles , tool control , tool flow ( in the right direction ) , tool type for the job , tool placement ( relative to the wood ) . The doo's and dont's for each situation . wood chucking , holding ,cuting , back hollowing , wood desighn , structure and compasition of wood . And many others , then there's the SKEW . So dont be apolagetic it's realy your students inability to adapt to an extra medium .:aro-r::D


Dear Rodent,

I am one of the students that has been mentoring for quite a while.

I do take a little offence in your comments about my inability to "adapt". In all my time on this side of the board, I have never seen that kind of sentiment directed at those learning the craft.

affectionately calls me Little Grasshopper. I can cop it from him (and Ken W.) They are at the top of the pecking order in what they do. Both ends of the spectrum.

But you? Tell me how you sharpen. I've got a 6mm spindle gouge here that I'd like you to sharpen with little steel waste.

Can you do it without a Tormek / wet stone grinder? Or are you good enough to take a few thou off freehand?

Looking forward to your response. And while you're at it, post some pics of your work too and show us what you can do. And have done. A little carraige would be nice.

Jeff

NeilS
2nd July 2009, 08:19 PM
And long ago and far away folk spoke in hushed terms about the Oz-made Heligrind ... what was the plus with this?



1. It was readily available back then.
2. It did a good job on the P&N 'U' profile flute, which it was principally designed for.

Still use mine, plus some adaptations I made for it, but it struggled with the swept-back Ellsworth/Irish flute profile so had to augment with something for that

Neil

rsser
2nd July 2009, 08:34 PM
Thanks Neil, and Alastair.