Which Chuck

[Ed Reiss]

As you might know, I've been having a slight runout problem with the latest Nova chuck purchased. The "powers that be" are working on the situation to get it resolved, but I am seeing a drop in quality at the Teknatool camp, so with that in mind I would like my next chuck purchase to be of better quality...what would you guys suggest?

Thanks from the "poor peasant infidel" :q:D

[wheelinround]

Hi Ed Vic Marc comes to mind shame the pocket doesn't hold enough $$ for it Gary Pye has a series H&F has some

Guess the thread insert wasn't the problem after all :?

[Ed Reiss]

Whellin, got a e-mail from Roger Durst at Craft Supplies yesterday. They still haven't received their shipment of inserts from Tek. He is also going out to AAW until next Tuesday, so I'm not expecting to hear back until sometime late next week about him testing and sending me an insert that runs true with the chuck body.

So, you say Vicmark...are the Nova jaws compatible?

[wheelinround]

Whellin, got a e-mail from Roger Durst at Craft Supplies yesterday. They still haven't received their shipment of inserts from Tek. He is also going out to AAW until next Tuesday, so I'm not expecting to hear back until sometime late next week about him testing and sending me an insert that runs true with the chuck body.

So, you say Vicmark...are the Nova jaws compatible?


I don't think so but Jim Carrol (http://www.cws.au.com/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_by_category?category_id=1107146803) could answer that one for sure
Jim has this economy (http://www.cws.au.com/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_by_category?category_id=1107146818) one Ed not a Vic Marc

[Jim Carroll]

Ed if you want to buy a quality chuck go for the Vicmarc range.

Steer away from the cheaper alternatives, tou will finish up worse than the nova.


None of the jaws are compatible between vicmarc and nova. There are some that use adaptors but this can cause problems with alignment and jaw travel

[TTIT]

Don't know what you have available to you over there Ed but I have 3 chucks.

The 100mm Vicmark was spot on straight out of the box.:U

The 120mm Vermec was spot on straight out of the box and it also accepts Vicmark and Teknatool jaws.:U:U:U

The 100m chinese copy of a Vicmark ran like a Jean Francios Escoulen turning - had to get a geniune Vicmark adaptor to get it running true and it's still a pile of $hit! :~:C:~

My 2 bobs worth! (about 2 dimes to you Ed :U)

[bobsreturn2003]

try the oneway.com chuck made in canada ,nice gear .tecknatool used to be good also have 4 of them .once you start with one brand you have to stick with it cheers bob

[RETIRED]

http://www.woodturnerruss.com/Chucks.html

[wheelinround]

Ed you got me to the point I went and checked one of mine :( newest one

Body of the chuck runs out, this was checked between the chuck key and jaw slides
jaws don't in closed tight mode,
shaft is fine checked with the dial guage
I have been suspect of the adaptor for some time I will remove it and try the other adaptor from the other G3 which is older when my head clears (damn colds)

[bobsreturn2003]

shouldnt matter if you dont remove piece from chuck if you do mark both sides to get it back where it was. that is assuming its not to bad ?go carefully bob

[Grumpy John]

Ed, I've got 2 VM120's now and they both ran true straight from the box :2tsup::2tsup:. Bought a G3 because I was too tight to pay the extra $$$ for a VM90 and I've regretted it ever since, the finish on their jaws is atrocious. I also have one of these (http://gpwoodturning.sitesuitestores.com/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107136782&product_id=1107445144), excellent value for money (also available from Jim Carroll).

[efgee88]

I was impressed with the quality of the Vermec stuff. Bit silly for me to post here really since I don't have one, but my next chuck will be from them for sure. I have a SuperNova chuck and it seems fine, but the lathe is approx 4 years old now (made in NZ) and the chuck came with it. Does anyone know if Teknatool chucks are now made in China?

Cheers,

FrankG

[rsser]

I hesitate to contradict TTIT but the Vermec 4" will take both VM 90/100 and Nova jaws but the bigger one only VM 120/140? http://www.vermec.com/id1.html

Vermec were working on getting Craftsupplies to stock their stuff IIRC.

All the stuff of theirs that I have is well made.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

The one good thing about [(pick 1) shining, smiling, lucky, happy] [(pick 1) mongoose, dragon, tiger, diamond] brand chucks is that when you go back to using your Teknatool you think "Hey! This isn't so bad after all!" :rolleyes:

[Pat]

Frank, AFAIK, Teknatool transferred manufacturing from New Zealand to China some time last year. I have a SN2 and a G3 made in NZ and have no problems. One day I'll see a Vermec chuck in the flesh to make comparisons . . .

[Ed Reiss]

Thanks for all the replies, guys...and , good link to that web site.

So far it looks like the best ones are the Oneway, Vicmark, and Vermec .... decisions, decisions, decisions and, of course, $$$$ is always a consideration, but then it always pays to buy quality stuff.

[Ed Reiss]

Went and bought a dial micrometer w/mag base today and took some measurements on the Super Nova chuck.

Using the standard jaws that come with the chuck, I used two different size steel machined discs to take the measurements. I also measured along the body of the chuck itself.

I used jaw #1 as the reference point at which the dial face was zeroed out.

Here are the results measured from the body of the chuck going from jaw position 1 through 4 in order.

[Ed Reiss]

Here are the results measured from the jaw surface going from jaw position 1 through 4 in order using disc A held in jaws.

[Ed Reiss]

<!-- message --> Here are the results measured from the jaw surface going from jaw position 1 through 4 in order using disc B held in jaws.

[Ed Reiss]

The readings I got are not very encouraging. The body readings should have stayed at zero but didn't.

Steel disc A and B showed a lot of variation...most disturbing.

No wonder that the center of reverse chucked bowls did not run true :~:~:~

[Grumpy John]

Ed, the worst case looks to be photo 3 - disk A. It is a whopping 0.0055" out, about the thickness of a coarse human hair. The fact that "runout" varied with different jaw sets could point to variations in machining of the jaws. Photos of where the stylus of the dial gauge was contacting would be helpful in diagnosis.
Cheers
GJ

Oops, sorry, reread your post same jaws different disk. The differences are still negligible, but it would be handy to see exactly what you were measuring.

[wheelinround]

Ed similar reading on mine but nothing over .003/4 you seem to have a couple of readings at - .00? if thats the case your going from a + to a minus run out

The disc's in the jaws are they true??

have you trued the jaws up first loosened them off then tightened the chuck up then retightened the jaws so that each edge of the jaw is true and join is true

I forgot to do this once when changing jaws :doh: almost .5mm out one side.

Now can someone explain what the 2nd screw thingy is on Ed's dial gauge mine has one also and for the life of me I can't recall or seem to find what it does????

Edited.. Ed I haven't done it yet but intend to remove the adaptor nut and check run out on it.
then as I have a pre-chinese chuck and adaptor do the swap and see what I get then.
Especially after speaking to President of Ornamental Turners finding out 2 other members have already had to return chucks and adaptors to Trend / Carba-tec with still no resolve.

Maybe we should get Funkyhicken to start machining top Aussie made adaptors

[Ed Reiss]

Whellin, one of those screws controls the sprung arm and contact point in or out.
The second loosens the outer dial allowing the pin to be zeroed out.

[Ed Reiss]

Ed, the worst case looks to be photo 3 - disk A. It is a whopping 0.0055" out, about the thickness of a coarse human hair. The fact that "runout" varied with different jaw sets could point to variations in machining of the jaws. Photos of where the stylus of the dial gauge was contacting would be helpful in diagnosis.
Cheers
GJ

Oops, sorry, reread your post same jaws different disk. The differences are still negligible, but it would be handy to see exactly what you were measuring.

OK John...heres the setup pic showing the contact point.

[wheelinround]

Ed good shot of set up

how much play is there in the jaw slides I know this can vary from chuck to chuck thats why I did my test with the jaws centred and closed

Edit
sorry Ed forgot you had the disc in there

[Ed Reiss]

Ed good shot of set up

how much play is there in the jaw slides I know this can vary from chuck to chuck thats why I did my test with the jaws centred and closed

Edit
sorry Ed forgot you had the disc in there

...there is a ton of front/back play in the slides when there is nothing to bear against, thats why the use of machined steel discs

[Grumpy John]

Ed, try checking the runout of the piece in the jaws not the outer diameter of the jaws. Although the outer diameter should run true that may not be the case. After all it is the runout of the job being held that you are trying to check, not the outer diameter of the jaws which after all is irrelevant.

[jefferson]

Ed, try checking the runout of the piece in the jaws not the outer diameter of the jaws. Although the outer diameter should run true that may not be the case. After all it is the runout of the job being held that you are trying to check, not the outer diameter of the jaws which after all is irrelevant.

You are probably right GJ, given your background.

My only question is why don't turners spend the extra dollars and get Vicmarc chucks? They make next-to-useless rests IMHO but their chucks and jaws (some some exceptions) are great.

Jeff

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Teknatool was as good as Vicmarc; I'm more than happy with my chucks.

It's only over the last few years that their standards have slipped so badly...

[Calm]

I would be interested in the runout with the chuck mounted on the lathe (with no jaws mounted on it) and the measurement taken on the face at the four points that the jaws mount/locate aganst.

This shows the runout of the chuck without jaws and eliminates any dodgy jaw manufacturing.

I haven't bothered to work it out but 5 thou at that distance what would it be on the outside of a 500mm diameter platter. (enough to make you redo the outside again when you chuck it to do the front. (APITA)

Cheers

[rsser]

5 thou if the insert hole was only off centre.

Or with a platter much the same if the hole were not coaxial; run-out perpendicular to the bed that is. Run-out parallel to the bed would be a different story.

[rsser]

My only question is why don't turners spend the extra dollars and get Vicmarc chucks? They make next-to-useless rests IMHO but their chucks and jaws (some some exceptions) are great.

Jeff

Cos a hundred bucks and jaw incompatibility between chuck sizes is still a big disincentive for folk on a tight budget.

[Calm]

5 thou if the insert hole was only off centre.

Or with a platter much the same if the hole were not coaxial; run-out perpendicular to the bed that is. Run-out parallel to the bed would be a different story.

Not sure if you understood what i was trying to say Ern.

If the face of the chuck runs out (wobbles) 5 thou, (say 30mm from the centre) when you move to the outside of the platter 250mm from the centre it becomes a real problem.

Hope that explains it better. I knew what i meant even if i didnt sayit:?:?

Cheers

[Jim Carroll]

Does anyone use these chucks for metal work where you are working to thous of an inch or are you using them for woodturning where you work to millimeters.


Turn any bowl and platter best you can then leave it a week an see where the runout is.

Bet the chuck still runs truer.

This is why when you start a project you finish it at the same session dont leave it for a week as you will have to redress and maybe even re shape due to wood movement.

All Woodlathes are manufactured to certain tolerances but I am sure metal lathes are machined to higher tolerances, the same for chucks.

Yes I agree there is cheap chucks and there is good chucks and it is easy to see the difference

I think some of you guys had better get back into the workshop and enjoy what it was you wanted to do, turn to your hearts content.

[jefferson]

Cos a hundred bucks and jaw incompatibility between chuck sizes is still a big disincentive for folk on a tight budget.

Yep, I understand that Ern.

Some here on the board will never own a Stubby or a Vic. Sad but true. :( That doesn't mean they won't produce good/ great work on other gear though.

You could of course buy one decent chuck and change jaws over and over.....

I have spent heaps on wood working gear over the last 8-10 years and can only say, with hindsight, that my worst purchases were on cheapies. (Plus a stack on turning chisels 'cause I didn't know better). Crap router bits that flew long and far. Light-weight equipment that danced across the floor. I could go on and on....

If only the retail outlets let you put a chuck onto a lathe to see how it would run. Would that solve the problem with these chucks?

No disrespect intended Ern :).

I'm bursting to see your next box on the board. You're way ahead with the cross-grain stuff, but I might have you on the skew, at least for the moment! :D Not small beads though. (A man's gotta know his limitations.)

Jeff

[jefferson]

Does anyone use these chucks for metal work where you are working to thous of an inch or are you using them for woodturning where you work to millimeters.

Turn any bowl and platter best you can then leave it a week an see where the runout is.

I think some of you guys had better get back into the workshop and enjoy what it was you wanted to do, turn to your hearts content.

Thanks for that Jim, I've got to re-finish two redgum platters tomorrow, one that sat in a bed of white wine overnight, the other has a sanding pimple in the middle. I just hope they both run near to round.

Now what are you doing on-line? :D You have a business to run and impatient customers to service!

(Not me Jim, while I missed my mini-chisels today, you always give me great service and advice. :2tsup::2tsup::2tsup: Now just try talking me out of a Vic oval turning device.....) Oval lidded boxes, here I come....

Jeff

[Ed Reiss]

Ed, try checking the runout of the piece in the jaws not the outer diameter of the jaws. Although the outer diameter should run true that may not be the case. After all it is the runout of the job being held that you are trying to check, not the outer diameter of the jaws which after all is irrelevant.


I would be interested in the runout with the chuck mounted on the lathe (with no jaws mounted on it) and the measurement taken on the face at the four points that the jaws mount/locate aganst.

This shows the runout of the chuck without jaws and eliminates any dodgy jaw manufacturing.

I haven't bothered to work it out but 5 thou at that distance what would it be on the outside of a 500mm diameter platter. (enough to make you redo the outside again when you chuck it to do the front. (APITA)

Cheers

OK guys...made the measurements you suggested.

Here is the Super Nova with a machined hard aluminum fixture (I had a machinist make for me years ago) secured in the standard jaws. Position 1 was again the reference point where the dial was zeroed out.

As you can see from the pics that it is out by almost 4 thousanths.

[Ed Reiss]

Here is the same set-up using my original Nova

Just a hair over 1 thousandths at jaw 2.

[Ed Reiss]

Here are the measurements on the face of the jaws mounts (Nova)

[Ed Reiss]

Here are the measurements on the face of the jaws mounts (Super Nova)

Off by 9 thousandths at jaw 3 :o:doh::C

David...looks like this was the definitive test that showed just how bad the runout is.
Skew is right on...Tek have really slipped in the QC department lately. Don't see how they will stay in business if they continue to push non-quality stuff on the market.

So, for now, just waiting to hear back from Roger at Craft Supplies.

Thanks again for all the input guys :U

[rsser]

Interesting Ed.

With the test on the face of the jaw slide how did you ensure the slides were seated?

Calm, my point was about the difference between an off centre error that was coaxial (eg. run out same at bottom and top of chuck body measured parallel to the bed) and one that was not coaxial (chuck axis not parallel to the lathe bed). With my meagre imagination it seems that only that second would show a multiplier effect and that only the deeper the bowl.

Jeff, the big point of difference between Vicmarc and Nova chucks is that when you want to step up to a bigger chuck, with VM you have to buy all new jaws but with Nova you don't. That's why I have one VM and two Novas. (Over time however I don't like the way Nova jaw design has gone so the big difference doesn't count so much for me.)

Jim, your point is a good one and in practice the effects of run out may well be less than that of remounting or bowl warping. But GJ tells me it doesn't cost any more to machine accurately so why should buyers have to cope with that unnecessary variable?

[Grumpy John]

...................But GJ tells me it doesn't cost any more to machine accurately so why should buyers have to cope with that unnecessary variable?

This is true in a production situation using CNC machines. Once the tooling is set up and the "Part Program" written, repeatable results are possible at competitive prices as the machine can be manned by unskilled labour. High tolerance parts on a "one off" basis are a different matter and can be quite expensive.

[TurningGalley]

It provides a great grip on the piece.

(http://www.theturninggallery.com/Studio/ToolReview.aspx)

[Calm]

Here are the measurements on the face of the jaws mounts (Super Nova)

Off by 9 thousandths at jaw 3 :o:doh::C

David...looks like this was the definitive test that showed just how bad the runout is.
Skew is right on...Tek have really slipped in the QC department lately. Don't see how they will stay in business if they continue to push non-quality stuff on the market.

So, for now, just waiting to hear back from Roger at Craft Supplies.

Thanks again for all the input guys :U

Ern i had never noticed coaxial runout (probably didnt look to be honest)

Ed this is where i noticed the problem and what i have done now is fit the insert then my mate placed the chuck in his metal lathe against the face you measured and "faced off" the insert so that it eliminated this runout when fitted to the wood lathe.

Problem is if only one jaw runs out this wont work. Edit: - looking at photos again it would be interesting to see if "facing" the insert would eliminate this runout, jaws 3 & 4 are both high so the chuck appears to be "tilted" on the spigot.

Edit: - Ed is it possible to remove the insert and fit only it to the lathe "backwards" and check the runout of the face/shoulder that locates againt the lather spindle. One would assume the face that locates inside the chuck would be machined of properly but the outer one may not be touched after manufacturing the thread etc.


Might have to take Jims advice and just go out to the shed and turn. Still its annoying when you finish the outside of a bowl and chuck it to do the inside and it wobbles too much to be left. All that sanding gone to waste.

Cheers

[RETIRED]

Still its annoying when you finish the outside of a bowl and chuck it to do the inside and it wobbles too much to be left. All that sanding gone to waste.


That is why I never finish the back until after I reverse it.

I rough turn the back, form the spigot, put in chuck, refine the outside, do the inside and finish then.

Probably comes from the habit of doing the whole bowl on a waste block on a face plate before chucks were invented.

[wheelinround]

Whellin, one of those screws controls the sprung arm and contact point in or out.
The second loosens the outer dial allowing the pin to be zeroed out.

Ed knew of the spring arm wasn't sure of the other thanks my dial moves with out adjusting the 2nd knob.

Glad you did the face of the chucks something to think about

I think a test on the adaptor run out if your using one should be done with chuck removed
best test for the chuck true is remove the adaptor place chuck on known flat surface like a markout table and see what difference the face height is mic the outside dia with vernier guage just some thoughts.

I agree with GJ quality control with CNC maybe its their eyesight that needs testing

[efgee88]

Doesn't all this become irrelevant when you place a bit of timber in the lathe and the jaws sink into the grain just a little more in the soft stuff maybe and less in a hard bit of grain? How do you control that.
I'm sure I've seen a pro somewhere tap the job gently into line before tightening, rechecking, repositioning, tapping retightening, when rechucking - all done by eye with reference to the tool rest 1mm from the edge of the job. This is what I do and I find sometimes you just can't get it spot on, but it ain't the chuck. I reckon its the grain variation of the timber.

Cheers,

FrankG

[RETIRED]

Doesn't all this become irrelevant when you place a bit of timber in the lathe and the jaws sink into the grain just a little more in the soft stuff maybe and less in a hard bit of grain? How do you control that.
I'm sure I've seen a pro somewhere tap the job gently into line before tightening, rechecking, repositioning, tapping retightening, when rechucking - all done by eye with reference to the tool rest 1mm from the edge of the job. This is what I do and I find sometimes you just can't get it spot on, but it ain't the chuck. I reckon its the grain variation of the timber.

Cheers,

FrankGYes.

[Calm]

Doesn't all this become irrelevant when you place a bit of timber in the lathe and the jaws sink into the grain just a little more in the soft stuff maybe and less in a hard bit of grain? How do you control that.
I'm sure I've seen a pro somewhere tap the job gently into line before tightening, rechecking, repositioning, tapping retightening, when rechucking - all done by eye with reference to the tool rest 1mm from the edge of the job. This is what I do and I find sometimes you just can't get it spot on, but it ain't the chuck. I reckon its the grain variation of the timber.

Cheers,

FrankG

This is true Frank but when the chuck wobbles to start with (bad machining) it makes the whole job harder.

What chance do you have of finishing a bowl nicely when the cole jaws, donut chuck, longworth chuck wobbles by about 1/4 inch before you mount the bowl.

cheers

[Big Shed]

What chance do you have of finishing a bowl nicely when the cole jaws, donut chuck, longworth chuck wobbles by about 1/4 inch before you mount the bowl.


I have only started following this thread in the last day or so, thought for a minute it was in the wrong forum! With all those dial indicators I thought I was in the the metal working forum.

David, I would be worried too with a 1/4" wobble in any chuck, metal or wood, but I thought you guys were talking around the 5 thou mark? If it is 5 thou, that equates to 0.127mm in real measurements, I would have thought the wooden bowl would expand and contract by more that on any given day?

Having said all that, I have 3 Nova chucks, a Nova G3 and 2 Nova Compacs. They seem to be doing what they are supposed to be doing but I haven't put a dial indicator on it to look for TIR. I have however had QC problems with Nova Pin Jaws, made in China, a not uncommon occurrence unfortunately.

[Ed Reiss]

Interesting Ed.

With the test on the face of the jaw slide how did you ensure the slides were seated?

not understanding the question, Ern. If you mean vertical play, there is none. If you mean horizontal play, yes there is.
Understand that I'm not an engineering type (I had to work for a living when I was younger), so when topic starts with words like co-axil, etc. I tend to glaze over:doh:

Calm, my point was about the difference between an off centre error that was coaxial (eg. run out same at bottom and top of chuck body measured parallel to the bed) and one that was not coaxial (chuck axis not parallel to the lathe bed). With my meagre imagination it seems that only that second would show a multiplier effect and that only the deeper the bowl.

Jeff, the big point of difference between Vicmarc and Nova chucks is that when you want to step up to a bigger chuck, with VM you have to buy all new jaws but with Nova you don't. That's why I have one VM and two Novas. (Over time however I don't like the way Nova jaw design has gone so the big difference doesn't count so much for me.)

Jim, your point is a good one and in practice the effects of run out may well be less than that of remounting or bowl warping. But GJ tells me it doesn't cost any more to machine accurately so why should buyers have to cope with that unnecessary variable?


Ern i had never noticed coaxial runout (probably didnt look to be honest)

Ed this is where i noticed the problem and what i have done now is fit the insert then my mate placed the chuck in his metal lathe against the face you measured and "faced off" the insert so that it eliminated this runout when fitted to the wood lathe.

Problem is if only one jaw runs out this wont work. Edit: - looking at photos again it would be interesting to see if "facing" the insert would eliminate this runout, jaws 3 & 4 are both high so the chuck appears to be "tilted" on the spigot.

Edit: - Ed is it possible to remove the insert and fit only it to the lathe "backwards" and check the runout of the face/shoulder that locates againt the lather spindle. One would assume the face that locates inside the chuck would be machined of properly but the outer one may not be touched after manufacturing the thread etc.

Will try that one tomorrow

Might have to take Jims advice and just go out to the shed and turn. Still its annoying when you finish the outside of a bowl and chuck it to do the inside and it wobbles too much to be left. All that sanding gone to waste.

Cheers
.

[KenW]

I am also late in following this thread. In my opinion the best chucks are genuine Vicmark. Having said that, I never use a chuck to make a bowl, they are not accurate enough, limit your design choices and increase the time taken to make a bowl. I always use faceplates for making bowls and chucks for making boxes.
You can buy ten faceplates for the cost of one chuck.

[rsser]

You can buy ten faceplates for the cost of one chuck.

Yes, if you've got a common spindle thread - I won't start on the Nova's 1 1/4 x 8 :rolleyes:

But generally with bowls and chucking I don't find much difficulty with changed axes or radiuses as most of the bowls I finish turn are dry and stable enough. Two lines can be blended at the sanding stage. If the rim thickness varies noticeably then it gets tossed.

[Ed Reiss]

Edit: - Ed is it possible to remove the insert and fit only it to the lathe "backwards" and check the runout of the face/shoulder that locates againt the lather spindle. One would assume the face that locates inside the chuck would be machined of properly but the outer one may not be touched after manufacturing the thread etc.

OK Dave...did that and there was a thou + and - as the spindle was revolved. Did the same procedure on the face of the spindle and it stayed dead on "0".

Ken W ...I tend to agree with you on the use of a chuck vs. faceplate (in view of what has transpired with the Super Nova)
For years faceplates were used for my bowls and never had a (significant) problem when reverse chucking to finish the bottom. My first dealings with a chuck were in 1996 or 07, when I bought the Nova (lever type) and did notice that when reverse chucking the bowl that it was running somewhat off-center, but still not enough to worry about. The situation with the Super Nova is that reverse chucked bowls are significantly off-center which is a real problem when you want to incorporate a few circles as part of the bottom's design.

Might just have to go back to using faceplates again for bowls.

[wheelinround]

Accuracy of a wood chuck does matter Ornamental Turning relies on it decorating surfaces even using a chatter tool would be noticable

One of our members does 15"bowls and clock faces which are then have routered edges if the runout was 1mm at centre it could be that one side of the platter has deep and the other shallow cuts.

[Ed Reiss]

hmmmmm....so what kind/brand chucks do the ornamental turners use, Whellin?

[bobsreturn2003]

sounds like the insert needs trueing up . in metal work they use centre to centre work for lathe shaft to make the true ! but i think 6-8 thou would be really hard to see . perhaps you should look at a 4 jaw independant metal work chuck if you need real accuracy . would guess tekna tool made to a reasonable/ price cheers

[rsser]

Course we don't have comparative data here do we ... for older Nova chucks or Vicmarcs. Mebbe they're in the same ball park.

Might get out the dial gauge this arvo.

[wheelinround]

hmmmmm....so what kind/brand chucks do the ornamental turners use, Whellin?

Supernova, early Nova's, G3 I have 2 of them but as I said ealier we have 2 members now have trouble, H&F scroll chucks which seems to be ideal and all run true.

[rsser]

Here are the variations on mine.

A = the face of the chuck at the perimeter, without jaws and skipping the slides (cos they have to have some movement)
B = the side of the chuck body next to the face
C = ditto at the headstock end

so where B and C are different there'll be some degree of wobble; and the run-out figures (variation from the axis) will be half the measurement as they're taken at the circumference.

The dial gauge used was a Mercer on a magnetic stand.

Both Teknatool chucks are NZ made with the SN2 having a recent factory replacement insert and the Titan has a Vermec insert.

Vicmarc 100: A = 1 thou; B = 0.5, C = 1
SN2: A = 1 thou, B = 1, C = 1
Titan: A = 3 thou, B = 3, C = 2

Hope this makes sense.

Nothing to lose sleep over.

[efgee88]

Ern,

Does this mean that at worst, at 10x the depth of the Titan chuck the wobble is 5 thou, which is 0.15mm if I'm not mistaken. In other words, if your Titan chuck is 5cm from front to rear, then at 50cm from the rear of your chuck, your job is 0.15mm off axis. I would have thought even double that would be a negligible wobble. (unless my maths has failed me here.).

Anyway, sounds to me that you got your Nova chuck problems sorted!

Cheers,

FrankG

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

That's only true if there's no wobble at the back of the chuck.

eg. if the deviation is exactly the same at both ends of the chuck, then the chuck is still running parallel to the axis of rotation, even though it's not central on the axis. So even a foot or two away the blank would have the same deviation.

An unlikely case, but it shows that you can't extrapolate from one set of readings... :wink:

Further, if the body of the chuck is running true at both front & back & it's only the jaws that are out, then your blank will spin true. Reverse chucking would be a nightmare though. :D

[rsser]

My mind hurts.

Frank, as best I can make it out your figures are right for deviation from the axis but the wobble would be double ie. measured at a bowl rim the range of movement at right angle to the axis.

Still negligible.

[Grumpy John]

Further, if the body of the chuck is running true at both front & back & it's only the jaws that are out, then your blank will spin true. Reverse chucking would be a nightmare though. :D

This is a very real possibility as the jaws are made seperately to the chuck. To achieve the least runout possible the jaws should at least be machined on the chuck they are to be used on, to go to extremes they actually should be machined on the intended lathe to eliminate all possibility of runout. However the reality is with so many "special purpose" jaws available from a multitude of manufacturers plus inserts from just as many manufacturers all with (probably) different tolerences plus the wear on an old chuck..................... I think you can see where I'm going with this, I'd live with 0.005" runout.

[Ed Reiss]

yep...I'm ready to get the duct tape also, all this math is taking it's toll and the mind is glazing over big time.

Keepin' the fingers crossed that Craft Supplies comes thru with a sweet running insert.:U

[wheelinround]

Ed just got off the phone with Adrian at Trend Timbers getting a 1x10 adaptor sent out today may as well try see what happens.

What size is your adaptor insert not sure if you have said or I didn't read the thread of what lathe its on:doh:

Adrian mentioned he is only having trouble with certain sizes inserts

[Ed Reiss]

Whellin' ...My lathe is a Nova 1500, it has 1 1/4 x 8tpi ...thought buying from Tek that everything would just "snap" into place and run true and fine - NOT :~.

[wheelinround]

Just :rolleyes: a thought and GJ maybe could give some knowledge here

You fit the adaptor nut to the chuck there is a slight play between the threads, you tighten up then tighten the grub screw ..........but in doing so the grub screw is actually putting pressure on one side which is then tilting the nut and chuck to an untrue balance. :roll:

forgot to mention also ordered a set of Pin Jaws from Trend also:;

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

My SN2 has 2 grub screws, diametrically opposed.

But then again, I bought mine back when Teknatool cared about quality.

[Grumpy John]

Just :rolleyes: a thought and GJ maybe could give some knowledge here

You fit the adaptor nut to the chuck there is a slight play between the threads, you tighten up then tighten the grub screw ..........but in doing so the grub screw is actually putting pressure on one side which is then tilting the nut and chuck to an untrue balance. :roll:

forgot to mention also ordered a set of Pin Jaws from Trend also:;

It is possible that the single grub screw could cause the chuck to r/o slightly.



My SN2 has 2 grub screws, diametrically opposed.

But then again, I bought mine back when Teknatool cared about quality.

3 grub screws would be better.

[wheelinround]

Ok John

way's of testing I can think of for actual fit is mic both ends of the nut external, mic the internal make sure they are square and not tappered, bearing blue or plastigauge.

Try the fit of a pre-Chinese made nut and check balance of chuck and visa versa

[RETIRED]

Just :rolleyes: a thought and GJ maybe could give some knowledge here

You fit the adaptor nut to the chuck there is a slight play between the threads, you tighten up then tighten the grub screw ..........but in doing so the grub screw is actually putting pressure on one side which is then tilting the nut and chuck to an untrue balance. :roll:

forgot to mention also ordered a set of Pin Jaws from Trend also:;or you don't bother with the grub screw. None of mine have ever been fitted.

[rsser]

I was gunna add some more here but I'm over it :p

Time to head to the shed and fix boot rocker on my touring skis. New bindings have left the boot heel 30 mm above the plate it should sit on. Wedge shaped shims had to come from Utah with no guarantee they'll be enough. All the key screws were epoxied in and have to be heated to depoxy.

Don't ya just hate Yank QC?

Anyone else had boot rocker?

[Grumpy John]

I was gunna add some more here but I'm over it :p

Time to head to the shed and fix boot rocker on my touring skis. New bindings have left the boot heel 30 mm above the plate it should sit on. Wedge shaped shims had to come from Utah with no guarantee they'll be enough. All the key screws were epoxied in and have to be heated to depoxy.

Don't ya just hate Yank QC?

Anyone else had boot rocker?

You're gunna need a height gauge and a set of AAA slip_gauges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_block) to measure any errors Ern :whistling2: :D.

[rsser]

Cool.

I could get back to Utah and whinge about their gear being 0.000002 of an inch out!

[bobsreturn2003]

hey guys from the teknatool website run out on chucks - face .1mm radial .13mm . if you can finish wood with hand held tools better than this you have my admiration . given it is a uneven product . cheers bob

[Ed Reiss]

I was gunna add some more here but I'm over it :p

Time to head to the shed and fix boot rocker on my touring skis. New bindings have left the boot heel 30 mm above the plate it should sit on. Wedge shaped shims had to come from Utah with no guarantee they'll be enough. All the key screws were epoxied in and have to be heated to depoxy.

Don't ya just hate Yank QC?

Anyone else had boot rocker?

...amazing how quickly a thread can get highjacked. Oh, btw....have noticed lately that that the "Smilies" have shifted over to the right by about 1/512th of an inch:doh::D

[Calm]

Took the new Titan to my mates last night.

Checked the chuck body and the mounting faces (for insert) had 1 thou runout. Fitted insert and still only 1thou runout.

Am going to pull shaft out of Hafco lathe (getting changed to 30 x3.5 same as STUBBY) and will do more test then

The only time i attempted to use this chuck (with 140mm jaws) the 500mm platter had more that 1/4 wobble at edge. This was regardless of how many times i moved it to try and get it straighter. When i made the tenon smaller and mounted in supanova 2 with 100mm jaws there was no wobble.

Runout in this chuck must be in the mountiing face for the jaws or the jaws themselves. More testing coming up then machine the faulty bit to get it straight.

My mate told me when he bought his 4 jaw chuck (for herless metal lathe) he had to machine the jaws for it to get it running perfect.

Cheers

[wheelinround]

Got my new adaptor from Trend + a set of Pin jaws :roll:

Edited 2nd July 1330 hrs

New insert/adaptor nut fitted:U :2tsup::2tsup:

neighbour an ex-navy engineer came over for a chat showed him run out on old insert :oran both inserts with out the chuck no sign of runout.

I found that the thread was tighter between the insert and chuck when putting it on Ed, hope you have yours sorted ASAP.

[Ed Reiss]

Thanks Wheelin. I just got an e-mail from Roger at Craft Supplies saying they got their shipment of inserts from Tek and he has tested one with no runout and is on the way here.

Will let you all know how it goes with the new insert when I get the chance to test it...probably won't be real soon as I'm trying to get ready for for the Haddonfield Crafts & Fine Arts Festival on July 11 and 12.

This is my "comeback" as I haven't done a show in over 10 years...wish me luck!

[wheelinround]

Great news Ed good luck at the exhibition dont forget photo's

[Ed Reiss]

OK....received the Super Nova chuck insert replacement from Craft Supplies yesterday and surprise, surprise...it did not correct the chuck runout problem :(:~

Called Roger at CS and informed him of the situation, he is sending out a replacement chuck (it's great dealing with an outfit that has good customer service), so well see what the new one does, hopefully it will be a winner.:D

Meanwhile I put together a video comparison of my original Nova chuck and the Super Nova and posted it on youtube for you guys to see. The wobble is pretty dramatic.
Excuse the strained voice as I have a hypothyroid condition.


YouTube - Nova & Super Nova Chuck Comparison

[RETIRED]

Ed, can I ask why you got an "inserted" SN rather than a deicated thread like the Nova?

[Cliff Rogers]

As far as I can tell, the Nova could be ordered in 3 different dedicated threads but the SN2 only comes with M33x3.5 as a dedicated thread.

[Ed Reiss]

Ed, can I ask why you got an "inserted" SN rather than a deicated thread like the Nova?

was not aware that Tek was selling chucks with the threads cut internally for 1 1/4x8. The US suppliers list a number of inserts for the SN, so that seems to be the only choice.
If you know any different, do please educate me and the others.:U

[RETIRED]

Cliff may have answered the question but Jim can can give any other answer.

[wheelinround]

Ed thats some rock n roll mine was no where near as bad visually

Hope the next step helps I know its frustrating

[bobsreturn2003]

send it back thats just not acceptable . however have you checked your lathe shaft ? and collar that the insert locates against? would do that first . cheers bob

[Grumpy John]

send it back thats just not acceptable . however have you checked your lathe shaft ? and collar that the insert locates against? would do that first . cheers bob

I don't think it's the shaft Bob, the older chuck runs fine.

[wheelinround]

Ed just had a mate of mine who is a tool maker fitter turner by trade and showed him the video

He said same as I did a few posts back remove each insert try each insert if they will fit in the other chuck and see what run out you get on both.

If the run out till is only on the Supernova get someone with an engineering lathe to check it for balance and that the internal thread in the chuck itself isn't out of wack.


Ray

[Ed Reiss]

To clarify a few points:


the spindle runs true
the inserts themselves appear to run true
hopefully the replacement chuck that Craft Supplies is sending will run true
if it doesn't, a refund will be requested
Ray, thanks for the suggestion...I don't know any machinists here, and certainly don't want to shell out $$$ to one to get the chuck checked out.

[wheelinround]

Ray, thanks for the suggestion...I don't know any machinists here, and certainly don't want to shell out $$$ to one to get the chuck checked out.




No problem Ed now lets see if this will help then
You have a chuck that runs true put a set of jaws on it that will hold the Super Nova on the outside dia make sure its sitting face into and well back into the chuck (so your using the old chuck to hold the new chuck) set up your dial gauge DO NOT start the lathe but turn it by hand and see if you get run out on the body out side then turn it round and see what you get that way. Same as you did for that steel bit you showed in an ealier post:2tsup:

You could also check if the thread area of the SN is square to the body

[Jim Carroll]

was not aware that Tek was selling chucks with the threads cut internally for 1 1/4x8. The US suppliers list a number of inserts for the SN, so that seems to be the only choice.
If you know any different, do please educate me and the others.:U

Teknatool use inserts up to 1-1/4x8. as their rear thread is 38mm they can go no bigger than 28mm as not enough wall thickness left in the insert.

They now show only the M33 thead as a dedicated thread, they used to do the 1-1/2" also dedicated, this may have changed since manufacturing in china as there is not a big demand for the larger sizes.

The M33 is a european thread where there is a lot of lathes with that thread.

Vicmarc in their VM100 have a 40mm thread so are able to use inserts for most larger lathes and on the VM120 this is 45mm so cater easily to the larger sizes.

[wheelinround]

Reading their site tells it all http://www.teknatool.com/made.htm

Seems they now have a Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/pages/NOVA-Woodworking/91583652118?ref=share) site guess this maybe where they spend their time instead of answering e-mails.

[NeilS]

Teknatool use inserts up to 1-1/4x8. as their rear thread is 38mm they can go no bigger than 28mm as not enough wall thickness left in the insert.



Jim - does this mean that the 30mm x 3.5 insert is no longer available?

Neil

[Jim Carroll]

No that is still available.

Just the way the chinese write things.

[Ed Reiss]

OK Ray, did the test per your suggestion (SN held by 100mm jaws in the old Nova). The wobble is still distinughsable by eye...didn't need to set up the dial indicator.
I thnk that all the testing that was necessary has been done that needs to be done on the SN to show that it is out of kilter...now just waiting for the replacement from Craft Supplies and keepin' my fingers crossed.

Jim, thanks for the 411 on the inserts...interesting that Tek is not going after the larger lathe market.

[Jim Carroll]

Jim, thanks for the 411 on the inserts...interesting that Tek is not going after the larger lathe market.

I think since the demise of the Titan chuck Teknatool are staying in the mid range with their lathes and chucks.

[wheelinround]

OK Ray, did the test per your suggestion (SN held by 100mm jaws in the old Nova). The wobble is still distinughsable by eye...didn't need to set up the dial indicator.
I thnk that all the testing that was necessary has been done that needs to be done on the SN to show that it is out of kilter...now just waiting for the replacement from Craft Supplies and keepin' my fingers crossed.

Jim, thanks for the 411 on the inserts...interesting that Tek is not going after the larger lathe market.

:2tsup: good move Ed but :oo: chuck must be one that got through QA :; or was it used during lunch time soccer practice :doh: in the factory

[Calm]

............ or was it used during lunch time soccer practice :doh: in the factory

They wouldnt get lunchtime in the factory where this stuff is made:oo::oo::no::no: That would come under working pay & conditions:D:D

Cheers