Thread: Calendars for your shed/workshop - Makita Girls

Originally Posted by Mnb

3. I must have been delusional when I wasn't allowed to play footy as a kid. Cause that was taken away from me by a draconian idealogy. Well I was 5,6, and 7. I didn't have breasts and I was faster and better than the boys.

Firstly Mnb, thank you for deciding to return. One of the problems we have in discussing issues of this nature is that we cherry pick, because we are human we all have our own agendas. Consequently we ignore or brush over aspects that don't fit our story.

I have "cherry picked" your comment above because last night I saw a programme that compared seven year old boys and girls. The attitudes of the girls was that they basically had no worth and that of the boys was that they were bigger and stronger and destined to rule. None of this was true. They had a competition using a hammer and a gong (hit the button and send up a ball to sound the gong.) None of the girls thought they would be able to do this. The boys were supremely confident. The results showed that the strength of the girls was equal to the boys.

Turns out that in in pre-pubescent children, girls and boys of equal body mass have equal strength. Different post puberty where male body mass tends to be higher and on average women now have only two thirds the strength of men (I'm probably going to be shot down on that one, but I think the principle is there.)

Just returning to the original subject I think much of the discussion comes down to preconceived ideas and in particular respect. "Respect": For me that is the key word. So how does that fit in with a calendar featuring scantily clad girls, which as it happens I am quite comfortable admiring? I am thinking here as I write so in that regard this is a dynamic post (but not necessarily dynamite). I don't believe the girls who posed did it under duress is my first comment. On the contrary I suspect they were very comfortable performing for the camera and probably had a huge giggle. I would also surmise that there were a number of shots that were never published because they were too risque for what is really a very tame photo shoot, but that is complete conjecture (fantasy?) on my part.

So if they are content and not participating under duress, what is our objection as either a male or a female? Are we saying this is demeaning? Are we saying this is unnecessary? Ahem, this is advertising. All advertising is unnecessary: Unless you want to get your name out there and enjoy a profitable business. Makita compete with the likes of Bosch, Metabo, DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, Panasonic and a whole myriad lesser makes. Just the fact we are discussing this calendar from Makita's point of view has justified it's existence! The likes of Pirelli and others enjoyed the same prestige. I suspect, but don't know, that a model who posed for the famed Pirelli calendars was guaranteed a successful career.

Ok back to the issue. We managed to digress from the calendar aspect and introduce other aspects of feminism and exploitation. These are huge subjects in themselves. I don't wish to detract from any of the implied injustices of equality. However, remember my criteria of respect? Is the calendar dis-respectful? Does it demean women? Does it exploit women? Now, please consider, does it exploit men? I actually believe it very much exploits men. It exploits the ease in which we are flattered. It is a female - male juxtaposition.

Incidentally, back in about 1977 I remember visiting an office comprised of only girls where they had a large poster of a male nude on the wall. Neither were they told to take it down by the managing director, who turned beetroot red every time he walked in.

I am starting to digress so I should call a halt. The point I am making here is that it is easy to see a larger implication of the calendar than there really is. Of course there are the separate issues of equality, feminism, sexual exploitation and simply the basic interaction of the male and female, but I think it is a stretch (arguably an understandable stretch) to blame it all on a calendar. It is advertising.

Regards
Paul

Just as I said the OP is entrenched in his thinking and there is little point in expending the energy to reform it, the same applies to DaveVman, unfortunately. Continued use of such emotive language rules out any possibility of reasonable communication, so it becomes a waste of time and effort.


However, this:

Originally Posted by DaveVman

Point 2: the thing is that you haven't explained how women today are oppressed any more than men are.

...can only be responded to with a John McEnroe quote...

That idea that women are these days at least as well off as men is just crackers. Oh, and pointing out various things that have been denied on the basis of gender is not playing a victim card (particularly in the way it was said). It is stating the facts of the matter - the bleeding obvious, at least to those without their heads stuck in a calendar. An emotionally mature person can see that.




A reference to a female partner or wife as "the wife" or "the missus" sounds like a reference to an object or chattel, and is degrading in my opinion. "My wife" is personal and sounds like it is referring to an actual human being, not a dog or something. We never see "The Partner" or "The son or daughter", it's always "My Partner" etc. It would seem that the use of "The wife" is done deliberately as a put-down, for the purpose of de-humanising, degradation, and devaluing. "SWMBO", "The Finance Minister" et al are tongue in cheek, and are a different story.

Relevance of the above? At least one of the main protagonists in this thread has used that reference at least once in here, but I don't think I could be fagged wading through all the tosh so I can quote it.

Paul, as usual I find myself in broad agreement with you. A couple of things:

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Are we saying this is unnecessary? Ahem, this is advertising. All advertising is unnecessary: Unless you want to get your name out there and enjoy a profitable business. Makita compete with the likes of Bosch, Metabo, DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, Panasonic and a whole myriad lesser makes. Just the fact we are discussing this calendar from Makita's point of view has justified it's existence!

Well yeah, I am saying it's unnecessary. I'd be pretty sure that Ratbag (the forum power tool guru) would not be swayed one iota to buy Makita as a result of the calendar. At the other end of the scale of tool knowledge (say moi) would also do the research to find out what is best for my needs rather than just thinking with my genitals and hoping for the best (Ahem - I am actually a Makita user...)

I wouldn't be swayed either. We will obviously never know, but if that calendar cost say $20,000 to produce, then I suggest that is $20,000 less Makita profit that year and would not sell a single extra tool. Absolutely the only time I can see it working (and this is a long shot) is for someone walking into a hardware store with a Sgt Schultz knowledge of tools and brands. They see the Makita poster hanging from somewhere and are drawn to it magically, and make a purchase with nil further consideration.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

The likes of Pirelli and others enjoyed the same prestige. I suspect, but don't know, that a model who posed for the famed Pirelli calendars was guaranteed a successful career.

Maybe, but how many Weinsteins are there still unaccountable for their actions in the fashion/modelling world.

In fact, that is a good one for DaveVman to respond to with his thoughts that women are no longer oppressed any more than men. Were Weinstein's targets victims? Were they oppressed? I think the number that have come out is around 70, but we have to wonder what the actual number was (as if 70 is not enough). Does DaveVman think that this sort of behaviour is not rife around the world, and that women have not been generally sexualised? I would never suggest that he (DV) would think the behaviour is okay, but does he see it as oppression, that women have to yield to such monsters as Weinstein and countless et al, just to stay in their chosen career, let alone progress? And how many of his victims actually went along with it and are too afraid still to speak out - because they would be slut-shamed.

Maybe we should all be taken to the Vet at puberty.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Paul, as usual I find myself in broad agreement with you. A couple of things:Well yeah, I am saying it's unnecessary. I'd be pretty sure that Ratbag (the forum power tool guru) would not be swayed one iota to buy Makita as a result of the calendar. At the other end of the scale of tool knowledge (say moi) would also do the research to find out what is best for my needs rather than just thinking with my genitals and hoping for the best (Ahem - I am actually a Makita user...)

I wouldn't be swayed either. We will obviously never know, but if that calendar cost say $20,000 to produce, then I suggest that is $20,000 less Makita profit that year and would not sell a single extra tool. Absolutely the only time I can see it working (and this is a long shot) is for someone walking into a hardware store with a Sgt Schultz knowledge of tools and brands. They see the Makita poster hanging from somewhere and are drawn to it magically, and make a purchase with nil further consideration.


Maybe, but how many Weinsteins are there still unaccountable for their actions in the fashion/modelling world.

.

Hells Bells FenceFurniture, I'm supposed to be building an office desk! I should be up to my wall calendar in sawdust before morning tea and instead I am responding to this thread, which I hasten to add I find interesting. Male/female issues are interesting. I'm not completely sure what else there is in life, with the exception of woodwork, and hand saws in particular, of course.

In pointing out that the calendar is advertising, that does not mean it is successful advertising or that it will influence everybody. If the worst it achieves is putting the Makita (see I have just said it again) name in front of a potential buyer, it has not been an entire waste of money from their point of view. If the cost of production was $20,000 (actually I would guess at least ten times that. $20,000 would probably only cover the photo shoot let alone production of the calendar itself) it was part of an allocated "below the line budget" and if it was not spent there it would have been spent on some other, possibly useless, idea. Some advertising campaigns are successful and some are not. The difficulty for the manufacturer comes in evaluating the worth of the campaign.

I have no doubt that with your research skills you would not be swayed one iota and indeed you might be put off because it offends your ability to decide for yourself. I did make up a calendar for 1916 but was unable to persuade any attractive girls to pose with the handsaws. On reflection I don't think two beers was sufficient incentive and clearly my powers of persuasion are decidedly less than I imagine them to be.

The Harvey Weinsteins and others closer to home are all being forced out of the woodwork (intentional pun) and so they should be. It is the only way that such things will diminish (I nearly said stop, but that is probably unrealistic). There is always bullying and the Weinstein experience is just (if I can be forgiven for saying "just") sexual bullying. I quite easily believe the famed stories of the "casting couch."

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Well yeah, I am saying it's (advertising) unnecessary.

To be clear: I mean advertising in the form of calendars for tool brands. Some advertising is necessary to provide awareness of new tools, but the reality these days is that the internet and forums such as this one are all people need to make their decisions on purchases (and a much more valued decision at that). For example, I don't believe for a moment that a tradie would buy a new tool because he saw it advertised on TV. That is just the first medium that he saw it on. He is just as likely to be sent an email about it, see it in the workplace, read about it on a forum, so the TV stuff is really just a waste of money (in that case).

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

On reflection I don't think two beers was sufficient incentive and clearly my powers of persuasion are decidedly less than I imagine them to be.

Perhaps try the persuasion before you have the beers next time?

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

... it was part of an allocated "below the line budget" and if it was not spent there it would have been spent on some other, possibly useless, idea.

They can always decide to reduce the advertising budget, and take it as profit or devote it to research (of batteries in particular). It doesn't just "have to be spent" - that only happens guvmint departments.

Here is an interesting thing I did with students in the last 10 or so years of my physics teaching at uni.

With every major assessment, students were provided with an assessment guideline (an A4 page which listed in detail what was required to achieve maximum marks for an assessment, with marks being allocated for each section down to about the 5% level) so right up front the students knew what was expected of them. Alongside each criteria was a 2 column table - one column was where students entered their own assessment of their effort at a specific criteria, and the next column over was for the assessors grade for that criteria. This gets around a major teaching problem where students have to guess what's in the teachers head.

Invariably males started out the semester with most of them thinking they were much better than they were ie claim 75%, but were lucky to get 50%. Females were the opposite. By half way through the semester most students would understand the requirements and modify their expectations accordingly. It was uncanny how the marks in the two columns coincided with each other including the out-n-out slackers who accepted their <50% grades with only a few of these students asking me "how can I improve my marks".

On top of this, the students had the opportunity to obtain bonus marks if they added to an assignment meaningful material/work that went above and beyond the assessment guidelines but not many students (~10%) did this. Even though males represented about 80% of the students about equal numbers of males and females obtained bonus marks. I attributed this to the fact that we simply did not see that many middle of the road female students. We seemed to see female students who thought they were good enough to succeed - OTOH we saw lots of male students who caused themselves, their parents and teachers much grief and failed to complete their degrees.

Well this is good, I think I've been called a moron, knuckledragger, and now I'm degrading my wife.
In my opinion I don't really like using the term missus either, I probably shouldn't have now that I think about it. In fact it's interesting that I never used to until I participated in forums like this, in fact most of the language I use in posts is from this particular forum and I've learned these things from other members here, not passing blame just an interesting thing to point out.

For example, I'd never even heard of the SWMBO reference until I read it on here probably over 10 years ago now. I know it was on here because I remember clearly looking it up because I didn't know what it meant, plus this is the forum I read the most because it's in my view the best forum in the world, not just because it's woodworking related either.. Anyway I guess the point I'm trying to make is we all tend to change our language and opinions ever so slightly with what we see read and hear in everyday life, over time these change, this has happened to me with the use of the term missus. I used that because I find it less degrading than SWMBO in some way, I know you view that as more tongue in cheek but I view it as the other way around. I used to hear guys use the term missus when I was at Tech school or Tafe, probably the first time I heard it used for a guys partner, most who used it were a little on the bogan side, I guess I started using it around the same time as a way to 'fit in' I think.

I've always struggled with where do draw the line at what is viewed as an Australian term or use of language and where it becomes bogan or more feral so to speak. I might use words I wouldn't normally use in order to fit in with the crowd I'm in at the time for example. Or at least this is what I thought the crowd would use.

Speaking of which, although I haven't posted that many times on here over the years compared to some, I do read a lot on here and have been around since the early days before I even became a member. I've noticed a slight change in the 'crowd' opinion and tones, attitudes whatever. I don't want to say all this because I'm trying to change it and perhaps it's been a change for the good in most cases but without sounding too much like a knuckle dragging moron I rekon it was better in the good old days. Sorry, but maybe I'm a bogan, maybe I like that about an Australian forum, maybe I don't like the way that's all changed as well. But who is gonna care? Or do anything to change that? I don't expect anyone to, but I don't have to like it. I think some people need to take their head out of the clouds, stop looking to America so much for answers to any discussion. Hold on to our 'bogan' ways if that's what they are and learn where to draw the line between what is proudly Aussie and what we should leave behind in the dark ages and move on from.

That's what I want this post to be about, please don't get too much off topic, but I do enjoy reading it all and thanks again.
I just think we need to identify and perhaps hold on to some of these things in Australia, don't throw everything away just because we assume it's looked down upon or viewed as being too moronic or bogan in this modern world.

Let's face it, Australia, especially rural areas are full of Bogans and what some would call Morons, it's one of the things I like about this country, it makes me feel Australian I guess and it's what I think separates us from the rest of the world. You don't have to like them or agree with their ideas but just remember without them, hard working Aussies, ANZAC's, and other larrikins from our history, this country would be very different.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

A reference to a female partner or wife as "the wife" or "the missus" sounds like a reference to an object or chattel, and is degrading in my opinion. "My wife" is personal and sounds like it is referring to an actual human being, not a dog or something. We never see "The Partner" or "The son or daughter", it's always "My Partner" etc. It would seem that the use of "The wife" is done deliberately as a put-down, for the purpose of de-humanising, degradation, and devaluing. "SWMBO", "The Finance Minister" et al are tongue in cheek, and are a different story.

Really? You've never come across "How are the boys/girls/kids?"

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I think it may be somewhat unfounded in this case.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

They can always decide to reduce the advertising budget, and take it as profit or devote it to research (of batteries in particular). It doesn't just "have to be spent" - that only happens guvmint departments.

The Makita girls already exist, have done photo shoots this year and are promoting tools or whatever, this would cost money. Why not use some of that existing budget to get some calendars made using photos that are already edited, photoshopped, and in use?
(not that I'm saying they need photoshopping by the way)

Well good on you Andrew for fessing up to learning at least a little something! There's nothing wrong with using colloquial language or vernacular, and Australia has probably the world's richest and most unique. So it's not the use of "missus" (or hubby, bloke etc etc), it's the "the" that is the problem - it objectifies rather than personalises. I would object to it just as strongly in context of "the hubby" as opposed to "my hubby".

Originally Posted by Ausworkshop

The Makita girls already exist, have done photo shoots this year and are promoting tools or whatever, this would cost money. Why not use some of that existing budget to get some calendars made using photos that are already edited, photoshopped, and in use?

Some part of the production will always be in progress, so whenever the time comes for Makita (et al) to grow a pair as you say, and call time on using gratuitous sex for advertising there will always have been some budget already spent that is going to be wasted. The only time that would not be the case is when they decide that "this year's project is the last" to which I would say "It doesn't work anyway, stop it right now and save the dough".