Thread: Copyright Issues - Selling Designs From A Pattern Book?

Interesting conundrum Sir Stinkalot! I'll be watching this thread for further discussion.

Yet another ambiguous copyright. This happens with monotonous regularity. Its like a spider web, catch the unwary and then, if so desired, consume it. You would be better making widgits rather than widgets and that variance would be grounds for your defence. Very few products dont carry some resemblance to something else. Copy means copy, not similar.

It seems very clear to me ....Reproduction for personal use only. Why not dream up your own designs? It's much
more satisfying. Just build on the past without getting caught. It's worked that way for a long time now.

If you look around enough you could probably find copyright free plans that are similar to the widgets in the book. Particularly if you look at old books or on-line for copyright free plans. Then you make from the plan that doesn't have the copyright.
Or as has been suggested, make a sufficient modification to the plans you bought so that your widgets are inspired by and not from plans you bought.

So are you selling the design, or what you have made from the design?

If you're selling the design, then that's a no no, the copyright for that design lies with whomever paid for it, likely the producers of the material. If you have bought a book of designs, you're paying for the right to use the design, not copy it and on sell it.

If you're selling something that you've made by following the instructions in a book, then that's not an issue, you're being paid for the work and materials that went into

Originally Posted by Ball Peen

It seems very clear to me ....Reproduction for personal use only. Why not dream up your own designs? It's much
more satisfying. Just build on the past without getting caught. It's worked that way for a long time now.

Originally Posted by son_of_bluegras

If you look around enough you could probably find copyright free plans that are similar to the widgets in the book. Particularly if you look at old books or on-line for copyright free plans. Then you make from the plan that doesn't have the copyright.
Or as has been suggested, make a sufficient modification to the plans you bought so that your widgets are inspired by and not from plans you bought.

The reason for my post is more for general discussion into the use of patterns from a purchased book to make a widget for sale. Could it be seen that slightly changing the widget so I can call it my own is actually discrediting the original designer? Remember in this example the original designer has openly sold the design in a book, it is not a case of copying a photo of somebodys work who perhaps doesn't want it reproduced. At least if you are original to the initial widget design, and credit the source of the design, the original designer has a higher profile leading to more sales of the book.

If there is the need to change the design of the widget, why bother buying the book in the first place with the 15 widget designs? Wouldn't it be just as easy to look at the photo and then create your own design leaving the designer without the sale of the book. Also with 15 widgets in the book, how are you expected to have a go at each design if you are not allowed to sell the completed widget?

Originally Posted by codeMunk3y

So are you selling the design, or what you have made from the design?

The scenario that I am raising is only based on selling the completed widget based off the design provided in the book (giving due credit to the original designer). I 100% agree that resale of the plans is out of order as anybody else wanting the plans should buy the book from the author/designer. In effect I am questioning the sale of the completed widget, which isn't offered by the author of the book.

The copyright in the book seems "professionally" vague. The plans in the book need to be scaled up on a photocopier - effectively forcing the purchaser of the book to reproduce the design (plan) to create the widget. The copyright seems to be giving approval for the photocopying of the plans for personal use (ie for use of the person who purchased the book). The wording however of "instruct the reader in the reproduction of these designs" seems to suggest however that the finished widget is also only for personal use as "instructing the reader in the reproduction" tends to suggest that the reproduction of the design is the finished widget and not just the reproduction of the plan.

As I said I just think it an interesting point for discussion. We often read about taking "inspiration" from a completed design that is either seen in the completed form, or a photo where the original designer did not release the plans for reproduction, but it isn't often commented where the designer has openly sold the design for reproduction.

Copyright is tricky. The old fiddle tunes " Ida Red " or " Cotton eyed Joe " are public domain but most people who
record them copyright their arrangement. Go figure, it takes less to change a tune than a furniture.

Bruce Molsky Cotton Eyed Joe old time fiddle tune - YouTube

Hot Club of Cowtown - Ida Red. - YouTube

I think it's pretty clear that the author agreed to the plans being used by the purchaser for personal use, to produce the items shown in the plans. However, it's also clear that if you start producing those goods for sale, you are using the plans contrary to the conditions you agreed to by purchasing the book, and are stealing the author's intellectual property.

Look at it from the author's point of view. He has spent time and skill producing something that you are willing to buy, so that you can make things for personal use. However, if his designs are good, a manufacturer may be willing to pay for the sole right to use those designs commercially, and those rights have a higher value than the book, because the manufacturer can use them to make a profit.

If you want to make something for sale, either design your own, or pay someone for the rights to your their plans commercially.

Originally Posted by Sir Stinkalot

The scenario that I am raising is only based on selling the completed widget based off the design provided in the book (giving due credit to the original designer). I 100% agree that resale of the plans is out of order as anybody else wanting the plans should buy the book from the author/designer. In effect I am questioning the sale of the completed widget, which isn't offered by the author of the book.

I personally don't have an issue with this, you've paid to have access to the plans and if you're selling a product made from those plans, then people are paying for time and materials that you have put into it. You also don't have exclusive rights, therefore someone else can produce the same product and the customer has the choice to buy yours or theirs.

Lets look at it from another point of view, anyone can pick up a cookbook, bake a cake or two and sell it at the local bake sale. They've paid for the design (recipe), materials and time to make it and now they're selling it.

I am of the opinion that you have legally purchased the plans and what you make using those plans you can freely sell.

Certainly the copyright suggests to me that you can't copy the plans and re-sell them, however you can copy the plans for your own personal use (i.e. to make the widgets). The copyright doesn't appear to preclude making and selling the finished widget.

It all depends on the fine print, like in any other contract.

I've checked the books that I have from Taunton Press on making various things and all say in the copyright section that :

This book is sold subject to the condition that all designs are copyright and are not for commercial reproduction without the permission of the designer and copyright owner.

So if this, or similar, appears in the book within the copyright section at the front of the book you cannot make widgets by using the designs and sell them.

If that doesn't appear go ahead with making and selling them.


Peter.

Ps. Bolding and underlining in quote is mine.

And write on them,"Approved by Sturdee."

Originally Posted by Sturdee

It all depends on the fine print, like in any other contract.

I've checked the books that I have from Taunton Press on making various things and all say in the copyright section that :

This book is sold subject to the condition that all designs are copyright and are not for commercial reproduction without the permission of the designer and copyright owner.

So if this, or similar, appears in the book within the copyright section at the front of the book you cannot make widgets by using the designs and sell them.

If that doesn't appear go ahead with making and selling them.


Peter.

Ps. Bolding and underlining in quote is mine.

That to me is still ambiguous, I read that to mean you can't copy the designs for commercial reproduction, but you could make the widget that's described and sell that.

I'm guessing if it's really a big thing, contact the respective publishing houses, keep a record of it, either you're going to get a yay or nay, or you could assume that if they don't reply that you're good to go.

Certainly some interesting responses and varied ones at that.

After careful consideration I would tend to think that the designer (or at least the publisher) has produced the plans and sold them for personal use.
This personal use would (unfortunately) preclude the manufacturing and sale of the widgets produced from the plans.

In keeping with this however I think I would need to consider very carefully next time that I look at an instructional/plan book for purchase. Quite often we make something for the enjoyment of making it, not the finished product. With a book containing 15 widgets it can easily get to a point where despite wanting to have a go at them all, there is no way of getting rid of the finished product. Sure they could be given away, but then there isn't much difference between giving them away and selling them (when we are considering very low volume). The copyright in this instance did talk about the Reproduction of these designs for profit ...... perhaps it could be argued that given the cost of materials and labour then we are unlikely to actually turn a profit from the sale of widgets .

Perhaps it would be handy if there was some sort of fair use policy for sale of items produced from the plan book. It could limit the quantity, or perhaps licence the manufacturing to the individual that purchased the plan book (i.e. no mass production). Obviously it would be difficult to enforce but realistically so would the sale of the widgets at a local market that were produced from the copyrighted plans.

Originally Posted by codeMunk3y

Lets look at it from another point of view, anyone can pick up a cookbook, bake a cake or two and sell it at the local bake sale. They've paid for the design (recipe), materials and time to make it and now they're selling it.

That is an interesting point. It could extend to the actual cake mix, and also the appearance of the cake. I guess it boils down to whether there is a copyright provision written into the cake cookbook. I have just thumbed through another widget making book that I have and it doesn't appear to have a copyright clause so I guess these designs could potentially be produced and sold.