Thread: Do craftsmen use powertools for jointing

Also, do not use my age in regards to the value of my opinion, that is a deep insult to myself, and I would have thought that a usually well balanced member like yourself would know better.

That's the first time anyone has ever called me well-balanced...

I think length of experience is a valid consideration in discussions such as this. Sorry that it offends you but that is my opinion.

I think the suggestion that a hole in a piece of wood is more valuable because it was created by hand instead of a machine is whimsical nonsense. The value of a piece is a combination of the design and the implementation. I'd like to know how you would be able to tell in a finished piece that mortices have been cut by hand or with a morticing machine, or a router? It is elitist rubbish to suggest that only woodworkers who do everything by hand can produce an item of value. It is a deep insult to those of us who choose to use machines for some of the work.

People with your viewpoint are quite hypocritical. You look down your nose at those who choose to use a router or some other machine for a mundane task yet no doubt the timber you work with yourself has been sawn in a mill, dried in a kiln, resawn by a machine, probably even dressed by a machine. Do you use any machines or power tools at all? When you are felling your own timber and sawing it by hand, come back and see us.

Originally Posted by Woodwould

The most respected member's question was answered at least three times.

You know, you don't have to read my posts, but if my input on this forum has managed to keep you away, then I think the forum as a whole is indebted to me.

To Different, Lignum & Woodwould
There are a few craftsmen on this forum who are all interesting to follow,
I'm rather sad to see 3 of them squabbling like schoolboys.

As some of the Moderators would say, settle children.

We don't want our forum plagued by nastiness. Different views yes, but nothing personal.

BTW (is that shorthand OK for a near 50 year old?), a few years back I went over to Port Lincoln in SA. I visited the workshop of a "master" cabinet maker - can't recall his name but he is one of maybe a dozen or so world-wide that are in the club. (He built stuff for the new Parliament House).

What I did notice was:

- machinery and timber everywhere
- projects half complete, just waiting for the timber to move
- a cold, uninsulated shed

What the tour didn't show was the "real" area of the workshop and all the hand tools. That disappointed me a little.

Apparently the "master" chose Port Lincoln because of the relatively stable humidity levels. And I did love his veneer press, an area that I am yet to explore.

What confuses me most about this thread is that the younger ones are favouring / insisting on 19th century skills that have all but disappeared. A sad loss I agree, but we must move on.

Now if you want to compare the skills of a woodturner in say 1820 with an expert of this age (minus the peddle power), I cannot see any difference. Sure, we now have electric power, but putting a chisel to wood with a sharp tool needs the same skills from the turner. Maybe that's why I like it.

I've seen one great spindle turner who does fantastic work with the skew chisel that would no doubt equal if not better the turners from past years. Sure, he uses power and M2 steel, but he CAN turn. So all is not lost.

And for the young ones out there that disagree, OK. You can spend days, yes days or even weeks getting boards DAR by hand. But can you fit a cabinet door nicely with brass butt hinges after a complicated glue-up? If you can, I humbly suggest that all those hours of planing by hand were wasted.

The end product is all that non-woodworkers see.

Off my soap box for the moment.

Jeff

What confuses me most about this thread is that the younger ones are favouring / insisting on 19th century skills that have all but disappeared.

I actually like that aspect of it. Despite our differences, I'm glad to see a young 'un like Durdge39 (if I can call him a young 'un without upsetting his sensibilities) showing such passion for the old ways. When I have more time, I'm certainly going to explore them in detail. I'd like to make something from scratch with hand tools, but for the fun of it.

I just utterly reject the notion that use of hand tools imparts some sort of mystical quality in something as mundane as a mortice & tenon.

As for the nastiness, I agree with Bob. It is a shame to see three of the people I have a great deal of respect for going at each other. But then their strongly held views are one of the things that sets them apart.

Originally Posted by echnidna

To Different, Lignum & Woodwould
There are a few craftsmen on this forum who are all interesting to follow,
I'm rather sad to see 3 of them squabbling like schoolboys.

Why cant we debate and ask questions. I dont see the squabbling.

good

Originally Posted by silentC

That's the first time anyone has ever called me well-balanced...

I think length of experience is a valid consideration in discussions such as this. Sorry that it offends you but that is my opinion.

I think the suggestion that a hole in a piece of wood is more valuable because it was created by hand instead of a machine is whimsical nonsense. The value of a piece is a combination of the design and the implementation. I'd like to know how you would be able to tell in a finished piece that mortices have been cut by hand or with a morticing machine, or a router? It is elitist rubbish to suggest that only woodworkers who do everything by hand can produce an item of value. It is a deep insult to those of us who choose to use machines for some of the work.

People with your viewpoint are quite hypocritical. You look down your nose at those who choose to use a router or some other machine for a mundane task yet no doubt the timber you work with yourself has been sawn in a mill, dried in a kiln, resawn by a machine, probably even dressed by a machine. Do you use any machines or power tools at all? When you are felling your own timber and sawing it by hand, come back and see us.

A word I accidentally omitted in my first post, but included in my second was "intrinsic" I see a great deal more intrinsic value in a piece by hand, not monetary value. Most consumers don't give a flying rat whether it was done by hand or machine and care only for aesthetics. I on the other hand appreciate a hand made piece more, whether that appreciation carries out into you, is your choice, and I don't intend to change that. I have no qualms with you calling me a young'un, but I don't think it's right to judge someones opinion value based on their age. I have worked with wood, even while the first years were not much to speak of, for over ten years now, and it is included in my day job in which I repair and rebuilt parts from light aircraft, many of those parts wooden, like wings in vintage models. I do use machinery at work and at home, my bandsaw, drill press and occasionally router, while using a linishing machine at work also. I don't look down on machinery users, as the work most do is well made and very well designed. This thread is whether or not craftsmen use machines, and I call a craftsmen someone who can do all those things, without the machine, because the skill in in their vast knowledge and hand and motor skills. It is also those pieces that I admire with awe, because they have invested so much more time into getting it right.

Originally Posted by Woodwould

The most respected member's question was answered at least three times.

You know, you don't have to read my posts, but if my input on this forum has managed to keep you away, then I think the forum as a whole is indebted to me.

Your humility is showing again!


Ross

I don't think it's right to judge someones opinion value based on their age

You'll grow out of it.

I call a craftsmen someone who can do all those things, without the machine

I think you are wrong. As I said, it is insulting to those who use machines to suggest that they are not craftsmen because of it. It is a very shortsighted and ignorant point of view.

I don't see that your inclusion of the word intrinsic changes anything about your argument, because the belief that only a hand tool can produce aesthetic value is intrinsic to your argument and I believe that is nonsensical. Take a step back and look at what you are arguing. You are saying that a hole in a piece of wood is 'better' because it was cut by hand.

Originally Posted by silentC

You'll grow out of it.


I think you are wrong. As I said, it is insulting to those who use machines to suggest that they are not craftsmen because of it. It is a very shortsighted and ignorant point of view.

I don't see that your inclusion of the word intrinsic changes anything about your argument, because the belief that only a hand tool can produce aesthetic value is intrinsic to your argument and I believe that is nonsensical. Take a step back and look at what you are arguing. You are saying that a hole in a piece of wood is 'better' because it was cut by hand.

You might be surprised what some people much younger than yourself have to say on that argument regarding age.

This is a thread about opinion, and in my opinion, a craftsman is the elite of his field, the best there is, and to be that, I believe, in my opinion, that having the basic skills, the hand skills, as mundane and slow as they are in comparison, is one of the largest parts of becoming one. And remember, I said that the work done by people on here that use machinery for their joints, among other things do a great job. They are great wood workers, designers and sculptors of this substance, but not what I would deem as craftsmen.

Also, a review of what the word intrinsic means might be helpful to you. Intrinsic value is like sentimental value, where you don't value whatever it is because of its look or price tag, but the work that went into it, much like sentimental value is of the memories and history of an object. I said I see intrinsic value (which does not mean aesthetic, or monetary value) in things done well by hand. I never stated that hand crafted pieces increased the price tag, or look of a piece.

Originally Posted by Durdge39

And remember, I said that the work done by people on here that use machinery for their joints, among other things do a great job. They are great wood workers, designers and sculptors of this substance, but not what I would deem as craftsmen.

Sorry Durdge, but that is a total croc of you know what. You couldn’t be further from the truth.

Originally Posted by Durdge39

Y

This is a thread about opinion

Having an opinion does not make you unique mate.

Having an opinion that you can support with facts and/or reasoning is far more important.

Originally Posted by Lignum

Sorry Durdge, but that is a total croc of you know what. You couldn’t be further from the truth.

The term craftsman is a strong word to me, and in my opinion (yes this is a thread of opinions, not facts) the elite of the craft should be named craftsmen, theres craftsmen among us here, but for the majority of us, I don't think we've earned that title.

I just spent all afternoon making 16 Mortice and Tenon joints by hand and my hands are killing me. I couldnt do that everyday. Give me back my Router. Actually I used a pillar drill to drill out the excess on the mortice but the joints are nowhere near the accuracy of the Router method. I think there is a place for machine tools on repetative jobs but I must admit I noticed how each Mortice/Tenon got better the more practice I got. I just need A LOT more practice till I can beat the router.
With regards craftsmen and whether there is anything the 'ancients' did that we cant do today - my personal opininon is that No, we can do everything they did but possibly not in the same way. Lots of techniques have been lost. ie I read once that the techniques the craftsmen who built Budhist temples and other religious places like Ankor have been lost. We 'think' we know how the ancients did things relying on archaologists, but most of it is guess work. No one really knows how Stonehenge was built but they do know the stones were mortice and tenoned together - how the hell did they do that 3000 yrs ago? We could do that today quite easily.
I gotta stop my hands are killing me.

Stu