Thread: Designs, ethics and copying

I kind of have that same problem at the moment.

I saw a picture of an awesome looking coffee table on line. The design of it was a quirky, outside-of-the-box, complicated eye catching piece. It is beautiful and I want to make it. Well I was going to change a couple of things. I had no drawings to work from, just 1 picture.

As the weeks led up to the build, I had redesigned the components to suit what I was able to do and source.

I am now half way finished. I decided my piece was going to be sold to the owner of my local pub (who a while ago asked me to make tables for him).

So I was going to tell my local drinking friends that although the design was found on line, I wanted to change a few things to suit the bar. Basically I take no credit for the design, I only take credit for my twist on it, on top of building it of course.

I don't like to copy other peoples designs as I believe I am quite creative. I just like to look at other peoples work to get ideas from and change a few things.

That's a fair comment, isn't it?

When you see something you like, so you make one the same or similar. It is a credit to the maker. I don't a problem with it. As long as don't go into mass production.

A table is a table and there aren't many ways to make it. Legs, rails and a top. If you don't want people to copy it then lock it up. Simple.

I remember reading somewhere that an idea taken from a single source is plagiarism, an idea taken from multiple sources is research!

From a personal integrity (as opposed to a strictly legal) stand point I would have no issues with blatantly copying a design if it was strictly for my own use. If I was planning to sell the item that would be a whole different thing. I would need to be able to convince myself that I was taking inspiration from a piece and developing it beyond that. Using a different timber would not represent sufficient development on my part.

Philip.

Most ideas are the amalgam of other things you have seen, one way or the other. slidingdovetail I think it sounds like your table is your design it was influenced by the original but it is still your interpretation with your input into the design and construction.

As for plans in the magazines, I believe that there are copyrights placed on them and are in the small print saying the plans are supplied for personal use or to that effect (I might be wrong though), I am sure the commercially supplied plans do.

As for how much you change to make a plan different. I am sure there is a legal definition, but in my opinion any change you make to make the plan more ascetically pleasing to you makes it your plan then

Originally Posted by slidingdovetail

I kind of have that same problem at the moment.

I saw a picture of an awesome looking coffee table on line. The design of it was a quirky, outside-of-the-box, complicated eye catching piece. It is beautiful and I want to make it. Well I was going to change a couple of things. I had no drawings to work from, just 1 picture.

As the weeks led up to the build, I had redesigned the components to suit what I was able to do and source.

I am now half way finished. I decided my piece was going to be sold to the owner of my local pub (who a while ago asked me to make tables for him).

So I was going to tell my local drinking friends that although the design was found on line, I wanted to change a few things to suit the bar. Basically I take no credit for the design, I only take credit for my twist on it, on top of building it of course.

I don't like to copy other peoples designs as I believe I am quite creative. I just like to look at other peoples work to get ideas from and change a few things.

That's a fair comment, isn't it?

I have the impression a lot of us on the forum are in the same boat. Your example is a bit different, SD, in that no plans or instructions have been provided. But I'm sure many of us have reproduced something we've seen in a photo.

Is it a different story if there is a commercial gain? And does the question of ethics depend on the amount of commercial gain? For instance, a one off sale versus selling many of them?

You guys are thinking about the right things and I don't see any problems for you. Not much comes out of a vacuum.
We're all standing on the shoulders of others.
Early on I worked for a well known designer/ maker. I asked him if he was concerned guys like me, trained in his style,
would just copy his work. Basically he said ..." go for your life, this stuff is hard enough to sell. If you can sell it, more
power to you. Besides it's not like I'm only ever going to have one or two good ideas. "

I wrote to the remaining, living author of a text, asking for permission to use a drawing for a wood carving. She granted my request, adding that if I changed 5 things, I could call it my own. Well! You could not tell where the inspiration came from in the result! The Dragonfly Dishes.

Professional teaching chef friends of mine said that changing any 3 things in a recipe makes it unique.

You admit to having changed some things. Breathe in, breathe out, move on (whose song is that?)

Good to read those replies, seems I may have been overthinking a bit. I suppose people have been making furniture for a very long time and chances are you're always copying someone. And for part timers like me, I rarely if ever make the same thing twice so how much harm can there be.

I suppose there is also a big difference between a unique Krenov piece or a Nakashima, as opposed to an article which is basically saying "I made this table and this is how I did it".

3 toe: you and I both know that there have been furniture "styles" which have come and gone over the centuries. Many of those pieces are quite the collectables now. There's no quibble about the makers.

May I suggest something for your local pub? Ask for donations to buy "memorial tables" for your mates who have shot through. Little brass plaque marker, right in the middle of the table. Boys that you hoisted a pint with. You build them, they buy them.
Alan Ryder died 3 days before I could see him 2 weeks ago. 50th highschool reunion and he just couldn't hang on any longer. Bummer.

My website has been active since July 2003...10 year anniversary a week ago.
I promote my business, and have a very nice regular result from it in selling jewellery. I also display my hobby for all to see.
Over the last 7 or 8 years I've watched the way folk have used what I've discovered to go into making tools for themselves.
I get regular feedback, both locally, and internationally. This gives me enormous enjoyment.

I'm trying to promote the interest in OLD tools far and wide, and some people really get into it like I do.
Have a look at this recent example. My website was getting a large number of hits from a particular source, so I went to have a look.
Building an infill smoother #1: Inspiration and cutting out the sides - by Wally331 @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community

He found this page of mine..
Metal Plane Making
And liked the design of a plane so much he has set about making his version of it.
Good luck to him!

As others have said many times before, if someone thinks they can take a design of mine and make a copy for themselves, go for it. I have tried to give as much information as possible to help them. I know exactly how I have harvested previous work for the stuff I make.
Also, if they think they can make a living out of selling any of my designs, good luck as well. Making a living at hand-made and custom-made anything is a challenge, I've done it for 38 years, and know many others who have struggled with it also. And if someone wants to make copies of something I sell, and sell it cheaper, good luck with that too. Craftspeople the world over don't just sell what they make, we are continually building relationship with clients. Hopefully it will be more than just time, materials and money. And if someone thinks that that will be the the way to cut me out of the market, they are misunderstanding what it is all about, and why we do it.
I've seen people really get annoyed by copying, and especially the keyboard jockeys getting outraged on their hero's behalf. (with generally totally ignorant reference to copyright and law, fair use etc.) What I don't see are the original makers getting upset.

What I do regularly defend, with absolute zero tolerance, is what I have taken the time to research and publish. Those who think it is OK to copy and paste, that is to just steal images and text, then re-publish it for their own use will get quick action from me.

It is pretty easy for me to see what is fair, and what is not, with regard to my published work.

Regards,
Peter

Thanks Peter,(lightwood) you are clearly directly affected by this issue. It was good to see you were acknowledged on that other fellows website. I like the sense of community that is coming through. We are all woodworkers and craftsmen after all, standing on others' shoulders as BP said. I certainly feel far more relaxed about it all now.

RV, the pub/table question was actually not raised by me but by slidingdovetail.

I have run many classes over the years as well as numerous woodworking workshops, when it's a group situation all attendees are given the same brief or design to follow.

Never have I seen 2 pieces identical even though they are all working from they same plans.

When we are talking about hand made objects created by people, instead of machines, there will always be differences in interpretation.

Personally i'd be flattered if someone thought enough of my designs to copy 'em.

Because the real talent isn't in copying what you see, the real talent lays is the thought process that went into creating the piece in the first place and that is what you can't copy.



Cheers

Steve

Originally Posted by Gra

Most ideas are the amalgam of other things you have seen, one way or the other. slidingdovetail I think it sounds like your table is your design it was influenced by the original but it is still your interpretation with your input into the design and construction.

That's a good way of putting it Gra,

I'd also like to clarify my words above,

The coffee table I saw on line is shown below, I liked the 'concept' as oppose to the 'design'. If that makes any sense.

Concept being the idea of the legs 'falling' yet still holding up the table.
With that idea I am making a table similar, legs are still falling and still holding up the table but my legs are not solid pieces and the top has 3 panes of translucent glass loosely sitting into a timber frame.

So yes, I guess I was influenced ​by the original designers work.

Originally Posted by fineboxes

Personally i'd be flattered if someone thought enough of my designs to copy 'em.

Because the real talent isn't in copying what you see, the real talent lays is the thought process that went into creating the piece in the first place and that is what you can't copy.



Cheers

Steve

wow Steve, your words are absolutely true.