Thread: Flooring before tounge and groove

Rammed dirt floors, cow poo and something else.
My wife's G'ma had such a house as did her dads first house.

Our house, around 1860, has pit sawn timber studs, split rafters, dovetailed wall plates, mortice and tenoned studs to top and bottom plates, split shingle roof still under the tin, and plain butt joined sawn boards on floor held down by wooden dowels about ½ to ⅝" round.

Not sure if any of that is helpful.
Curious what you're going to make with the timber? Shed or house?

large gaps
&
top nailed


my mums 80's house that was cut in half and moved at some point had pine floor boards so she ripped up the carpet and had them sanded. There where some pretty decent sized gaps in them that you could see through so eventually she put that styrofoam insulation under the house to stop the air coming up through.

most older houses where just top nailed and filled with a putty before sanding and polishing. Alot of the time floor sanders have to come through and punch them down further so they don't rip the sanding belts.

I was thinking timber . maybe some simple joint?
&
top nailed


my mums 80's house that was cut in half and moved at some point had pine floor boards so she ripped up the carpet and had them sanded. There where some pretty decent sized gaps in them that you could see through so eventually she put that styrofoam insulation under the house to stop the air coming up through.

most older houses where just top nailed and filled with a putty before sanding and polishing. Alot of the time floor sanders have to come through and punch them down further so they don't rip the sanding belts.[/QUOTE]

Thanks , I am thinking timber, I thought there may be a better joint than a butt.

Shed and more a livable shed compared to todays standards

I did a house with a gappy floor , I bought a brown no more gaps and filled it but sold the house 6 months later so i don't know ht held up .

In "activity stream" I can see you've posted three additional comments but they don't appear here.
If you don't want T&G or can't machine you could cut the edges on a 10 to 15° bevel and still butt joint.
It's only visual but cracks in joints don't look same as cracks in square cut.
I've machined wall panelling like so and its effective in hiding or disguising slight shrinkage.
Horizontal on floor could be different though. Might not work so well

Screenshot_20240313_215932_Opera.jpg

Well. They've all appeared now. Strange!

Far as I know wood flooring was for the wealthy up until the late 19th cent. Dirt floors, flagstone, and cobbles were the go. Where there was timber floors it was just top nailed to the joists. Gaps would have been something to live with for some of the year depending on climate. T&G floorboards were milled from the 1880tes onwards. That said T&G planes have been around for way longer than that so again those that could afford to pay for someone's time would likely had good flooring way earlier.
Regards
John

The very brief history of wood floor boards sort of runs like this,

• wany edge pit sawn wide boards face nailed (if you could afford iron nails that is.)
• shot edge boards
• ship lap boards i.e. rebates on opposing faces / sides of each board in an attempt to control drafts up through the boards. Initially top/ face nailed then secret nailed
• T&G edges, nailed as above
• composite flooring, ply, osb etc with T&G like edging typically with a non-organic tongue.
• now various engineered "boards" with natural wood face only.

If you wish to see how it was done in the 1800's look to the USA with its ornate parquetry flooring in areas like Brooklyn. Magnificent design with inlaid borders featuring complex designs - meandros patterns etc.

When you look at old Queenslander's here in FNQ the early ones typically had hoop pine floors - nice and easy to cut. The hardwood floors were not in vogue until decent machinery started to appear. Another great resource is IView and shows like Restoration Australia or Grand Designs when they have remodeled older buildings in Hobart, Sydney (The Rocks) and Melbourne etc. Restoration Australia : ABC iview

My Dad put down a lot of timber floors in the 1960's through to the mid 1980's which was when the building industry almost totally abandoned peir, bearer, joist & floor board construction in favour of slab on ground. Our much preferred floor was from red or brown tulip oak - very nice durable flooring. Most were top / face nailed as I punched off a gazillion nails, some were secret nailed especially architect managed homes / buildings. I can remember the old dance hall floors, some were very large 20m plus in dimensions, very well laid hardwoods, typically narrow boards less than 60mm wide, and only treated with a kerosene and bees wax finish and then hops spread over the floor on dance nights to increase the "speed" of the floor. I've seen some spectacular flat dance floors, some done from Turpentine. The old Cairns Aquatic Club (Sailing Club) was a pretty good one.

When you pull apart older buildings you soon learn that the buildings were "face only" joinery for cabinetry, architraves, jambs, etc and paneling etc typically all having a rough sawn back.

btw I dance like Peter Garrett, never a ball room dancer in my wildest dreams, though many of us dreamed of being Tony Manero in Saturday Night Fever (John Travolta)

Thanks , I did think of beveling the edges , but for the work it would only be visual as you said . Any gaps that open will still breathe and let bugs in. My great great uncle put layers of newspaper down and linolium, but id like to have timber showing , Might just have to flexable gap seal.

I would also add the comment that it is a real art to lay a natural timber T&G polished floor that will "behave" - not cup, shrink / expand excessively.

Selecting face up side of a board is not simply for appearance, as the grain direction in the board will determine if the cupping is "up" or "down" - cupping up is not preferred at all. When you look at the re-sanded floor disasters about the place it is because people want a "flat" floor. Wood does not play by those rules - it likes to move.

Shiplap +1
or an oversized rabbet? Then one row of nails is hidden, less time punching and filling. You could also fill the lap with sealant to stop draughts and crawlers.
cheers

As a woodworker I cringe when I see sealant in polished floors.
But admit its "a fix"

You could put a layer of that very tough plastic over joists, tightly laid and then your boards.
Not sure what its called. I was given a roll by a work mate. His brother said it made fantastic lining in a bush hut.
Black, diamond pattern, 1.2 metre wide. About 0.2?mm thick.
It made a very effective starling deterrent under the corrugated iron. The birds went crazy tapping away, eventually gave up.
Nothing's would eat its way through it. Suppose rats would!
Certainly seal the floor from drafts etc.?

You'd need to consider best width also. As others mentioned the way it moves around.

On floors. Our Tasmanian myrtle secret nailed flooring was superb.
Dad did the sunroom in it in 1966.
A dance floor looks amazing.

My house, built 1882, has tongue & groove Tas oak floors, mainly messmate. Interestingly, the joinery timber is imported Baltic pine - skirtings, architraves, picture rails, doors, windows, fire surrounds, etc. Allegedly, lots of timber was used to hold cargo in place in the old ships because dunnage was not subject to customs duty.

My grandmother's house, built 1840's, has 1⅛ inch messmate floors throughout, except the cellar where they are sandstone pavers. In the "public areas" of the house - passage and front parlour - the floors were tongue and groove. In the rest of the house - family area of ground floor, first floor and attic - the floors were butt jointed. All joinery was red cedar - skirtings, doors, windows, stairs, etc - imported from NSW/Qld?

I don't recall ever noticing the joints in the butts. Nan died in 1985 and the house was sold 3 years before that, but I went and had a stickybeak when the house was on the market ~15 years ago and noticed that the then owner had inlaid 8-10 mm battens over every joint and polished the floors, looked good. Do not know how permanent those battens would be, but at 180 years one assumes the floors are well dried and stable.