Thread: Glues for laminating

That's a good story, Rocker. I was making some trays over Christmas with curved parts that I laminated using West's epoxy. No problems with that. One of the trays was in Mulga which kept splitting and cracking and in the end to make a patch I had to glue two pieces of thinner Mulga together. This glue-up, not being curved, I used Titebond III. This stuff (Titebond III) is pretty good! In fact I clamped it to a piece of melamine coated MDF during the glue up (with no Glad Wrap in between) knowing that ordinary PVA and Epoxy won't stick to the melamine but, WRONG, it did and I had to chisel it off. Have you tried curved laminates with Titebond III? Do you know if it creeps like ordinary PVA? Would be nice if it didn't because it is easier to use than epoxy's.

Qw

Originally Posted by QldWoodie

That's a good story, Rocker. I was making some trays over Christmas with curved parts that I laminated using West's epoxy. No problems with that. One of the trays was in Mulga which kept splitting and cracking and in the end to make a patch I had to glue two pieces of thinner Mulga together. This glue-up, not being curved, I used Titebond III. This stuff (Titebond III) is pretty good! In fact I clamped it to a piece of melamine coated MDF during the glue up (with no Glad Wrap in between) knowing that ordinary PVA and Epoxy won't stick to the melamine but, WRONG, it did and I had to chisel it off. Have you tried curved laminates with Titebond III? Do you know if it creeps like ordinary PVA? Would be nice if it didn't because it is easier to use than epoxy's.

Qw

QW i use Titebond 111 for laminating, and yes it creeps but its not to bad. Its as strong and good for laminating as you will get and has some flexability that epoxy dosnt give. If i want the rigid laminations i will use west system as well. The only problem i have with Titebond, and i hope some others out their can advise here, but when i use it on Blackwood, the timber goes green:eek:

Originally Posted by Lignum

The only problem i have with Titebond, and i hope some others out their can advise here, but when i use it on Blackwood, the timber goes green:eek:

Yes. Blackwood and Mulga both went green. Flooded Gum, Beefwood, Silky, Silver Ash, Maple didn't seem to be discoloured. But the green colour sanded out OK.
Also Titebond III doesn't clean up as well as ordinary PVA (though this might be a function of drying very quickly in our 35+ deg heat over Christmas)

Qw

Anyone in Melbourne know of a supplier of Titebond III in the northern half of town? I don't feel like a drive all the way to Carba-Tec.

Greg

Originally Posted by gregoryq

Anyone in Melbourne know of a supplier of Titebond III in the northern half of town? I don't feel like a drive all the way to Carba-Tec.

Greg

Greg, cant help you their because i get mine from Braeside, but im nearly over the titebond craze. When my supply has finished im going to stick to garry wade 202gf, heaps cheaper and almost identical and dosnt make blackwood turn green

Do you get your 202 from Anton? I am almost through my second bottle of T3, and I have to say that I like it better than any of the other PVA derivatives that I've tried. I always seem to be planning a glue up on a cool day, so maybe my experience with it has been different. Blackwood seems to turn me green, so it doesn't get used here. Myrtle is not affected by it.

Greg

I do get it from him. but not for the last 18 months as iv been using Titebond, wich is a sensational glue that excells at glueing end grain. But they seem to be an identical product to me in their use. So my next will be 202fg. I love Blackwood to much not to use it even though the dust is a bit iffy

Gidday

After doing a lot of research and watching a number of finishing and repair videos I was wondering if glues such as epoxy should be used on laminations and veneers?

I mean how repairable are these glues types? From what I have watched and read epoxy is netoriously difficult to repair and modern type glues not far off on the hassle factor!

A lot of the master cabinate makers and woodworkers I have watched on various videos seem to love using animal hide glue which is a dream in regards to repairability and indeed if prepped and cured correctly bonds stronger than to wood.

As a result I have decided to go down the hide glue path particularly for Fine pieces I create for myself at home. Wat do you guys think?

Are these x perts simply attempting to remain traditionalists? does epoxy etc really offer the advantages we percieve long term particularly when it come to repairability???

Regards Lou:confused:

I found that I got the best results on high stress laminations by using AVSYntec 203 with 10% PVA added. Also it was important to have fresh surfaces, so sand with 100 grit just before bonding. This worked with Jarrah and some other eucs.
Jacko

Hi NewLou.

I have read many of the same articles, and agree broadly with the assertion about repairability and durability. I only recently am making stuff that might be worthwhile keeping around for a while.

I bought a wax heater on ebay-the kind used by beauticians to warm up their stuff to create fetching sculptures on the Brazillian theme It was inexpensive, rheostat control and just the right size. Now I may get around to using it on my current project. I just remembered that I own a veneer hammer too, another flea market special.

What do you do with your glue between jobs?

Greg

I think this thread is wandering a bit from my original point, which was that PVA, and probably hide glue also, are not suitable for laminating wide thin boards together to make a thicker board, because the moisture in these glues causes the boards to cup, whereas epoxy does not have this effect. Hide glue may be OK for attaching veneer to a board, but I would not use it for laminating two boards of roughly equal thickness. Similarly, I would not use hide glue or pva for bent laminations, where the glue joint is under continuous stress; for bent laminations, it is vital to use either epoxy or urea formaldehyde glue.

I have found that in one of my cabinets where I used liquid hide glue for the dovetails, the glue must have partially liquified in hot humid conditions (before I installed air-conditioning), and squeezed out of the joints and then solidified again, forming pinhead-sized hard droplets.

Rocker

Originally Posted by NewLou

Gidday

After doing a lot of research and watching a number of finishing and repair videos I was wondering if glues such as epoxy should be used on laminations and veneers?

I mean how repairable are these glues types? From what I have watched and read epoxy is netoriously difficult to repair and modern type glues not far off on the hassle factor!

A lot of the master cabinate makers and woodworkers I have watched on various videos seem to love using animal hide glue which is a dream in regards to repairability and indeed if prepped and cured correctly bonds stronger than to wood.

As a result I have decided to go down the hide glue path particularly for Fine pieces I create for myself at home. Wat do you guys think?

Are these x perts simply attempting to remain traditionalists? does epoxy etc really offer the advantages we percieve long term particularly when it come to repairability???

Regards Lou:confused:

Lou dont use epoxy on veneer, its not a good idea.

Jacko`s AVSYntec 203 (or 201) with 10% PVA added for laminations is the go. Epoxy is tough and strong but is limited with flexability, Urea with PVA added has the strength and toughness of epoxy plus the added bonus of alowing some flexability. I use between 10 and 20% as i just guess the ammount, thats the beauty of PVA in Urea or vise versa, it dosnt matter. Reverse with veneer, i put 10 -20% Urea into yellow PVA, it thins it out for better coverage and gives a longer open time.

If you go and buy some Urea at some point in time, get two liquid hardners, a slow and fast, but not the powdred hardner, its to fussy with mixing corectly.

I havnt used Hide glue so i cant comment, but i know people who have and as Greg pointed out its best for hand laying veneer with a hammer. But from what i can gather because its protein based it breakes down over time and needs to be repairing

Originally Posted by Rocker

I think this thread is wandering a bit from my original point, which was that PVA, and probably hide glue also, are not suitable for laminating wide thin boards together to make a thicker board, because the moisture in these glues causes the boards to cup, whereas epoxy does not have this effect. Hide glue may be OK for attaching veneer to a board, but I would not use it for laminating two boards of roughly equal thickness. Similarly, I would not use hide glue or pva for bent laminations, where the glue joint is under continuous stress; for bent laminations, it is vital to use either epoxy or urea formaldehyde glue.

I have found that in one of my cabinets where I used liquid hide glue for the dovetails, the glue must have partially liquified in hot humid conditions (before I installed air-conditioning), and squeezed out of the joints and then solidified again, forming pinhead-sized hard droplets.

Rocker

Point taken Rocker, and thanks for the original post. It reinforces for me the sole (good) experience I've had with epoxy. I will use it again, and the u-f glue as well.

Some Questions:

Did your hide glue come froma pre-mixed bottle? and,
Is thread hijack not compulsory here?