Thread: "Hand crafted" semantics?

Lmao, this exact same debate came up on BladeForums.com when I was a knife maker!
Is it hand made, custom made or what?
That question has a million answers!
Each individual sees it different and feels that using certain machinery is going beyond the hand made level. If you use a CNC mill, lathe, or router, it's no longer handmade despite the fact that you spent hours refining the project and putting the finishing touches on it.
In the custom knife making business some folks went so far as to say that if you used store bought screws your work wasn't truely handmade, lmao!!!!

Has anyone ever been to the Waterford factory in Ireland? I wonder what the master glass cutters who work there would think if you told them their patterns are not hand crafted because they use powered grinding wheels to cut them?

Originally Posted by silentC

Has anyone ever been to the Waterford factory in Ireland? I wonder what the master glass cutters who work there would think if you told them their patterns are not hand crafted because they use powered grinding wheels to cut them?

The trouble is that language doesn't always work like mathematics does. A definition in maths is non arbitrary, eg in geometry, a line is a series of points connecting two points in space. That definition cannot accommodate a few points which are close. Language can accommodate arbitrary definitions (for a non-arbitrary definition of my meaning of arbitrary see: point 2 here http://www.answers.com/topic/arbitrary

An arbitrary definition of 'handmade' might include using hand power tools, but I think people who use this definition are trying to apply the nuance of "skillfully made" which one may see as a corruption of the meaning of handmade.

Cheers
Michael

But you see the issue hinges on whether you apply the selective definition that you appear to be: that only hand power is used - or whether you take it to mean that hands were used to guide the tool etc. It starts from your understanding of the intention of the words, not the words themselves.

As I keep saying, if you are going to assign an arbitrary cut-off point - no powered tools - then you can assign that arbitrary point anywhere you like. The truly pedantic definition is that ONLY the hands were used - no tools - and we all know that is ridiculous, except for arts like finger painting and pottery (without a wheel) for example.

It's pointless to try to come up with a definition that everyone will agree on. All you can do is suggest what it means to you. There is no unassailable logic to it. It is completely arbitrary. It is an un-winnable argument. Where we have the problem here is that people like yourself keep suggesting that others are mistaken to believe that anything other than hand tools can be used.

I am not trying to apply any nuance. I am boldly stating that 'hand craft' does not imply hand tools only. That suggestion is introduced by your own predjudices and understanding of the term, it is not a rule. The line between hand tools and power tools is arbitrary. The term is not 'hand powered craft' it is 'hand craft'. The literal meaning is that only the hands were used. Any other definition is arbitrary, including mine.

Silent-C All good rational (unlike some) points and I think you have eloquently pointed out just how stupid this whole discussion is.
I think most interested people have a reasonable understanding of what "Handcrafted" means and with the exception of a few romantic pedants understand it to mean the inclusion of hands. tools and machines. All used with care in the pursuit of a superior product. Simple, pedants defeated! Now can we move onto something less stupid like politics or religion !


Ross

Originally Posted by silentC

It's pointless to try to come up with a definition that everyone will agree on. All you can do is suggest what it means to you. There is no unassailable logic to it. It is completely arbitrary. It is an un-winnable argument. Where we have the problem here is that people like yourself keep suggesting that others are mistaken to believe that anything other than hand tools can be used.

I am not trying to apply any nuance. I am boldly stating that 'hand craft' does not imply hand tools only. That suggestion is introduced by your own predjudices and understanding of the term, it is not a rule. The line between hand tools and power tools is arbitrary. The term is not 'hand powered craft' it is 'hand craft'. The literal meaning is that only the hands were used. Any other definition is arbitrary, including mine.

Four pages of discussion now. Not that that's bad. But it reinforces why this topic has the word semantics in it's title. It seems that to continue to discuss what it means will take many more than four pages.

Silent and Wongo touched on it a few posts ago, but perhaps it's more relevant to examine why people use the term hand crafted, rather than what it means. In many cases it may be used to try to influence a buyer and convince them that the object is of a superior quality to anything that isn't "hand crafted". It's not used to provide a definition, but rather to provide a perception in order to justify a price.

In fact, if the definition was definitive, it may detract from it's ability to subjectively influence or convince someone of superior quality. The differential would be objective and not open to "feelings".

Originally Posted by mic-d

This question has been giving me a head ache for the last couple of days but I think I know where my line in the sand is drawn... maybe. Handmade means for me made with tools powered by the body only. This has nothing to do with perceived quality, ...........
Cheers
Michael

OK, Michael; now where are you going to get the convicts to pit saw your timber as was done in the good old days of truly hand-made? Every stick of timber that Bunnings, M10, et al have in stock has been machine sawn.

And I thought the debate was all about perceived quality.

Cheers

Graeme

Originally Posted by Rookie

In many cases it may be used to try to influence a buyer and convince them that the object is of a superior quality to anything that isn't "hand crafted". It's not used to provide a definition, but rather to provide a perception in order to justify a price.

You are not wrong there John. You should not have to hard sell your work, just let your work do the talking. It is bit like telling someone a joke. “Listen to this, it is really funny”. If it was funny then you shouldn't need tell them, right?

To me, as long as a piece of work is well made, beautiful and strong then I don’t care if it was made by hand tools only or with power tools. Who cares?

Originally Posted by Sturdee

A tool is a tool and making differentials about them is being a tool.


Peter.

Could not say it better.

In fact, if the definition was definitive, it may detract from it's ability to subjectively influence or convince someone of superior quality. The differential would be objective and not open to "feelings".

Other industries have done that. For example, wine making. They have prescribed circumstances under which you can label a bottle as 'produced in' etc. because so many wineries buy grapes from outside the region to bulk it up. You know, like so many percent grapes from the Hunter Valley required before you can label the bottle as a Hunter Valley red. Don't know all the rules and labels but you get the idea.

Then you've got the whole EU thing started by the French. Can't called it Champagne unless it's from Champagne etc etc.

So I can imagine someone proposing a standard where x% of shaping must be done with hand tools before it can be called 'hand crafted' etc. Everyone suffers because of the small percentage tossers who want to take advantage of people.

Originally Posted by silentC

Other industries have done that. For example, wine making. They have prescribed circumstances under which you can label a bottle as 'produced in' etc. because so many wineries buy grapes from outside the region to bulk it up. You know, like so many percent grapes from the Hunter Valley required before you can label the bottle as a Hunter Valley red. Don't know all the rules and labels but you get the idea.

Then you've got the whole EU thing started by the French. Can't called it Champagne unless it's from Champagne etc etc.

So I can imagine someone proposing a standard where x% of shaping must be done with hand tools before it can be called 'hand crafted' etc. Everyone suffers because of the small percentage tossers who want to take advantage of people.

Good luck with defining the x%. Is not as easy as the weight of grapes, and even that has room for fiddling.

I've got no intention of trying

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

OK, Michael; now where are you going to get the convicts to pit saw your timber as was done in the good old days of truly hand-made? Every stick of timber that Bunnings, M10, et al have in stock has been machine sawn.

And I thought the debate was all about perceived quality.

Cheers

Graeme

Hoohummm, do you think I didn't think of that. I'm merely stated MY definition of handmade. Where I would draw the line. FWIW I have made only one thing I consider handmade, I fully embrace power tools in my work.
FWIW also I would consider that if I acquired some roughsawn timber, sawn by modern methods and proceeded to build something from it using handtools only, then it would be handmade. SilentC is right, it is an unwinable argument, my point is I am not having an argument, each person must work out what it means for themselves, I respect where anybody wants to draw the line, I expect the same grace afforded to me.

Cheers
Michael

For those who uses hand tools only, do they light a candle in the shed or do they just switch it on like the rest of us?